Ultra endurance racing. It's beautiful. It's not just about who's the strongest.
It's about who can suffer and suffer the smartest. And a bad lands to my mind one of the toughest ultra endurance races on the planet. Chris Melman proved he's one of the masters of this game.
Riding into an incredible third place. In today's episode, Chris takes us inside the prep of a worldclass ultradistance racer. The exact kit choices for 800 kilometers across brutal desert.
The fueling strategies that kept him sharp when others like me cracked pretty badly. We talk about his training philosophy that prepares him for that non-stop riding and the mental tactics to compete at the front of one of the hardest races on the planet. If you've ever dreamed of lining up for an ultra or you just want to know what it takes to push the absolute limits of human endurance, this conversation is your blueprint.
It's Chris Melman. Chris, podium in Badlands. Welcome to the Roadman podcast.
>> Yeah, thanks for having me. >> It's an achievement. Like, I can't put into words how impressive an achievement it is.
I'm sitting here, what are we like two weeks ago? I'm still broken. More than two weeks ago, was it two and a half weeks ago?
I'm still broken. mentally and physically broken. >> Yeah.
I mean, it it is. I I feel like uh I'm probably still broken. I just kind of normalized to it, if you know what I mean.
Just like, oh, I feel >> Broken is a new normal. >> Yeah, exactly. I think I think that's that's a big part of ultracling, unfortunately.
>> So, what day did you finish on? So, we started on Sunday. >> Yep.
So, I finished Tuesday at 1:30 a.m. So, >> like that's wild.
I rode for three extra days than you. >> Yeah. I mean, it it it was it was interesting cuz I didn't look at the look at the dots until after because I find if I look at the dots during the race, it's going to stress me out because I'm like, "Oh my god, there's somebody like even 30 minutes behind me.
" It's like, "Oh my god, they're 30 minutes behind me." But I looked after and I'm like, "Oh my gosh, I didn't realize it was this spread out." Like, there were people all over the course.
I mean, there were, you know, it was everywhere. And I think >> I went back to the finish the afternoon after I I was done and it was, you know, 14 hours after I finished. And I think like 6% of the field had completed it, like less than 20 people.
So, it's it's pretty wild to see the spread for sure. >> I think this is going to be a fun podcast cuz like we had two totally different realities for that race. Like I can't tell you the hardship that I went through and you went through a totally different maybe even more severe hardship.
So, right, let's start off because I'm even just curious on KISS that we used that was different. So, I went with was kind of my friends were calling like the festival setup where I had like tent, sleeping bag, ground mat. I even went like bougie and brought a pillow and an eye mask and earplugs and it was like it was it becomes this self-fulfilling prophecy though cuz the heavier your setup, the slower you're going on the climb, so the longer you're out there.
So, like I looked at the pictures of the winner and he looked like he was on a cafe ride. like he had less kit with him than I'd have going on a 4-hour endurance ride. Where did you fall into this continuum between full festival setup and cafe ride setup?
>> Yeah. So, it's it's always a it's always a challenge for me mentally like I always feel like I'm carrying too much. But, I mean, I had um so I had the tail fin 2.
2 L top tube bag and then a 3 2 L uh frame bag, half frame bag, and that was kind of the main thing. And then I had a regular saddle bag. So, I brought mainly spare stuff.
So, you know, I've had CO2s, a pan pump, and an electric pump. Like, a lot of >> Hey, you went heavy on pumps. >> Uh, I've I've learned my lesson with that one at Unbound this year.
Electric pump is probably the best thing you can have. >> Really? It's >> Oh, it's it's it's a lifesaver.
Like, because you if you have a battery pack, you can just keep recharging it. So, you have like >> essentially unlimited. And I mean I I've got the Silka one like and I'm not sponsored by Silka or anything but it's it's just it's saved me even like um just out training like it's it's so much simpler you know when you use a CO2 inevitably this like something happens and you lose half the CO2 trying to get it onto the get it onto the >> your hand gets stuck to the CO2 can with frost.
>> Exactly. Yeah. And there's and there's besides Al Maria and our whole route there really was nowhere to stop.
I guess it was like Gore I think that first town there was like a little bike shop there but other >> town I think I got there in the tour day or something. This is like >> yeah just different experiences. >> But yeah, I mean in terms of like I didn't bring any sleeping stuff.
Um I brought uh you know a light jacket, arm warmers, knee warmers, a buff um and some like heavier gloves, which sounds funny because we're in the desert and you think, "Oh, everyone here's battle lens is super hot," which it was for most of the time. But that second night, I needed all those layers. Uh then I brought an emergency blanket.
Um, I brought an emergency blanket just like just in case, you know, you never know. And then, um, yeah, besides that, like battery pack. Um, I brought uh exposure six-pack was my front light, which some people would go lighter.
That's their beefiest light, I would say. >> But I think light is one of the most valuable things you can have, and it's it's well worth having the the full-on setup. And then I brought a Diablo um light for my helmet.
Uh which you know I my strategy was like I'm going to use that when I need it and then just keep it off the rest of the time. But I mean you know with exposure stuff you just you never have to charge it. So I went through the whole race and I didn't didn't have to charge them.
>> Well, you don't have to charge it if you finish in like two days. I had to charge mine. But it's a it's so like I can't imagine doing that event without having exposure lights.
like I you know especially the new version that you can charge off your power bank which is phenomenal. >> So like I was just charging them during the day and then using them at night because like the last two nights I think we were riding >> basically like 22 hours a day. So like 90 minute period where you know you're just going in getting showered getting a small nap and then going again but to be able to charge them just throw them into the you know top tube bag and just have them charging away in there.
>> I seen this Japanese dude are he Japanese or Filipino? I don't know. I'm trying to racially profile him, but I seen him on the last night >> and Sarah is with me.
She's just like, "On your left, on your left." I was like, "What the hell?" Like pitch black dark gravel road.
>> He's just riding along in total darkness wearing black kit. And I'm like, "Bro, what the hell?" And he's like, I can see him.
He's like visibly definitely hit the deck a few times from riding in the dark. Like there's no light around there. It's not like there's street lights like illuminating the way.
I'm like, "How have you been riding?" He's like, "My my battery died like two days ago." >> Yeah.
I I think I remember listen listening to that episode and he's like yeah it's like I'm trying to conserve and stuff and it's like you know at some point you got to you got to know when to use it and I think the nice thing with exposure is like you can >> you can have a you know you can you have good battery life but you also can have a good beam and because that's key because if you're descending something technical you need to be able to see like in and you know as you mentioned one of the last episodes like somebody told me before bad lens like oh it's all pretty fast and smooth and like you know compared to other crowd races. Yeah, a lot of the sections are pretty fast, but there's a lot of chunky descending and a lot of stuff that's high consequence. Like if you hit one of those ruts, especially on that last descent, say for example, >> I mean, you're tired, you make your reaction times terrible, and you hit one of those ruts, you go down, broken collarbone, 100%.
>> Do you remember the Do you remember the super I'm not sure when you when you took it a day or night, but the super long descent? So, we came out of Almaria, we had the long climb. >> Yeah.
Then there's another long climb which started on road and then there was like I felt like a 90minute descent and like actually felt like I was because I was so fatigued I thought my brain was broken. I thought I was caught in a time warp where of like I've been descending for like 40 minutes and haven't gone anywhere like I'm dead. This is what happens when you're dead.
You're just doomed to descend in like forever and you don't make any forward motion. Did you take that one at night time or daytime? That was at daytime.
And I remember that exact descent because I totally agree where that one it was just the point of the race it came and everything, how rough it was, how long it was. I had to stop two or three times on the descent just to take a break. And >> my hands are cold.
>> I norm Yeah. I have suspension fork and normally like I felt like I was a stronger descender than the guy who was in third place ahead of me when I passed him. Um, I had passed him earlier in the race descending and I was like, "Okay, I knew when I passed him if I got him on the climb queue, I would never see him on descent.
" But like I just was like I was just done. I'm like I just I just want to be done this descent. This is horrible.
And it was like remote and I was like ah went to the next town coming up and >> I just had to like stop and take a break. And I think yeah, that one I remember that vividly because I was I was in a bad place at that point. mentally so fatiguing going downhill for that long cuz you're trying the bike handles different with that much load.
You you're obviously a slightly lighter setup than me, but it traction feels different like lines feel different. You get kind of pushed wider than you anticipate in the corner into more loose stuff. And yeah, I found it just took a lot of cognitive load and focus all the way down that descent and by the end of it I was cooked.
>> Yeah. I mean, the way I felt like I was descending by the end was, you know, everyone talks about bike body separation when you're descending, like mountain biking or off-road. And I felt like I was just locked in.
I was just like this like and it it's a weird feeling because in a way like I was descending really fast because I I think your your sort of inhibitions just go away and you're just like, "Oh, whatever. Just >> if I die, I die." >> Yeah.
Exactly. But at the same time, my technique was absolutely horrible. And if something had happened, like you start to lose your front wheel.
Normally, you have that reaction time. You can save it. No way.
I would have I mean, I feel like I would have just crashed. But then you also have to factor in like, you know, at night or even during the day with some of those ascents. There's, you know, some sections where it's extra rough or there's larger rocks and you have so much weight on your bike.
You really have to be careful because you can not just flat, you can break your rim and you really have to factor that in as well. I seen the one dude uh American and I really should learn his name because I've talked to him a couple of times now and he crashed literally on the safe because David the organizer was saying to me, "Hey, did you see that crash? It was just ahead of you.
" I was like, "I just came upon it." Like I think he barely stopped skidding by the time I came upon it. I must have been 60 seconds behind him.
He crashed on maybe the safest part of part of the whole course. It was Do you remember those really flowy bike paths or like walking trails on the Alia deck? He crashed on one of those >> Instagram photos.
Yeah. So that was the one with the ambulance, right? Where >> So you know, so he was coming off one of the trails and then a a road intersected it and then the trail was restarting after the road and the lip when you came off the track, you had to like lift your front wheel slightly to come onto the road section.
I guess he just pinned it straight into that and his wheel smashed and he went over the bars and broke his collar bone. >> Yeah. I mean that or for me.
So I rode through Al Maria during the daytime at like peak like 11 and 12 something like that. >> That's warm. >> And it was scary because you're so tired your reaction time's slow and it's a city.
It's a real city. There's tourists walking across cuz we're on the boardwalks a beach. There's tourists walking across.
There's e scooters. There's people everyone's on their phones. And I'm like, "Oh my gosh, just get me through this.
" Because I'm like, if somebody walks out in front of me, I don't have the reaction time to stop. And then my bike's a little heavier, so I don't have the braking power. And that was that was actually like surprisingly scary.
And I realized, wow, that was the moment where it hit me like, wow, I am really tired. Like this is this is real where because when you're alone and you have that you have that extra space to be, you know, to um to kind of, you know, take take the line you choose and all that, but through the city, man, that was that was >> I actually felt like I had a little bit of almost anxiety going through the city. I was like just I was getting a little bit stressed with cars behind and they were like very respectful.
There was no close passes or anything, but I found a little bit like, "Oh, just get me back into the wilderness." Like, I'm not meant for this city living anymore. I live in a city.
>> It's Yeah. And it's it's weird because, you know, you're in your own little bubble and everyone else is going about their day, you know, going to the beach, going to work, and they're looking at you like, "What? What is this person doing?
" like covered in salt stains like like it's almost like we're like an alien and then they're in their own separate world and you're in this like little bubble just going through it. It's it's a really weird um it's a weird experience. Like >> Sarah has salt stains on the outside of her hydration pack.
What's I don't never know how to pronounce this but on USWE. Yep. >> Yeah.
I've never seen salt stains on the outside of a bag in my life before. It's like how does that even happen? >> Yeah.
Yeah, I mean I always joke with my friends at home like I'm not a very like I know you talk with Alex Wild a lot and he's a very salty sweater and he's like polar opposite of me. I'm not a salty sweater and I always joke with my friends at home like if you ever see major salt stains on my jersey call 911 like call the emergency services because it's bad. for partway through the first day of Badlands, my shorts were completely caked like to the point where I had 3D salt stains and I actually ran out of, you know, I ran out of at some point ran out of electrolyte um stuff and that was like the first day.
So, and uh it was in Gore. Um I always get Gor and Gorafi confused, but Gore was the one where they had the big party going and they had a grocery store and everything. >> I went in and I was like, "Sike salt, like do you have any salt?
" And I was thinking, oh, I'll get some little packets. And they like, well, we got one of the big salt shakers. So, I bought the thing and just carried it with me the rest of the way.
And I was I was eating out of it, which I know everyone's going to be like, that's the most disgusting thing ever. But like at some point, like you just need salt. And the practicality and time it took to like, okay, when I refill my bottles, I need to put salt in my bottles.
I was like, I'll just eat out of it. And so that was my electrolyte source the rest of the race. Um, was a full size, you know, probably.
>> Yeah. I don't even know how good that is as well. Like I'm not a physiologist, but isn't is like meant to be made up sodium, potassium, and magnesium.
You're going straight sodium. >> It's it's supposed to be, but I think the most important thing is is at least the the sodium and like um I just it was sodium chloride. That's all table salt is.
And figured it's better than nothing. And the second day was better, I'd say, because second day I was on the coast for a while, which was cooler. And then the climb out of Almaria was hot, but it was still cooler than the first day.
the first day, man, going through the desert. I mean, it's almost suffocating. Like, it it was actually scary.
Like, I did a lot of I did like I know you were talking about how Sarah did um saw on the sessions mostly for heat prep, not for heat acclimation, not for like, you know, the benefits. I did the same thing. I I don't I live at altitude, which is great.
So, I have that benefit. But for me, it was just getting used to the heat because I train through the winter outside in Colorado. So, you know, coming off the first coming coming into the first like warm day of the spring, it can be like 15° and I'm dying.
Like, like literally, that's that it's that bad. Uh, so I really had to do even even though this was in August, I had to do a fair bit of sauna prep, but going through that desert was like I think I was going through a liter a liter and a half an hour of water at one point. Like just an unbelievable amount.
>> So, what did you bring with you? cuz right so two things I'm really curious about because we're talking about you were saying like oh on day one I'm here day two I'm there but your pacing is obviously wildly different to my pacing so I was in totally different places to you so did you set out at the start of the event with a okay I want to make it to here before I stop and then how long are you stopping for like did you have plans when I talked to Rob Brittain last year about when he won it he'd planned seven minute naps so he knew the places he was going to stop and sleep for seven minutes and then then get phone again. How did you approach that breaking down of the course?
>> Yeah, so I kind of have a a process where I take take the route and so I have like a ride with GPS route that they send they have and then what I'll do is I'll go through mile by mile and map out where can I stop so I can like I'll put points of interest for you know fountains for grocery stores cafes all that stuff and then I can see okay here's you know here's roughly where where it can stop. And then what I did is I color coded the map like roughly where I thought I'd be at night. And as it turns out, it ended up being well ahead of schedule.
It was faster, ended up being faster than I thought, but then I could see, okay, it's nighttime in Spain. Stuff's going to be closed. There's no 24-hour stores in Spain.
Um, and then what I did is kind of one of the mistakes I made during the Chaka this spring was carrying too much food. So, I just committed to carrying like 10 hours of food um to start with. And I tend to fuel a lot.
Like I'm a bigger guy and I just I have t find fueling like a pretty high amount makes makes the most sense. So I think at Unbound this year I did 110 grams of carbs an hour for 23 hours or 22 hours or something >> which is really high for the intensity. I'd be really interested.
Yeah, >> I might try to get back on one of the uh sports nutritionists or physiologists who specialized in this like the percentage of because the way fat burning versus carbohydrate burning has been explained to me by Sam Imp is to stop thinking about it like a light switch where it's on and off. It's more of a dimmer switch where you're always burning a percentage of sugar. That percentage of sugar changes based on >> intensity.
110 seems quite high for I'm guessing your average power was like 200 watts or less. Yeah. So, my average power for this race was um it was like 180.
So, it wasn't very high and normalized I think was 200 something. But I think what I found is I just have to go on like you know what what do I feel like I need? And but at some point like I work with a dietitian Chris Low who's based in the UK and he actually Alex Wild works with the same one.
But one of the things he talks about is like at some point in these races like fat's almost better. Like getting high to fat stuff in is important because it decreases the caloric deficit you're in because there's there's nine calories per gram of fat and there's only four calories per gram of carbs and protein. So, think about it like if you're able to get in stuff that's higher in fat, you're kind of minimizing that like slow, you know, um, separation of of a deficit.
So, yeah, I think for me it's just I just kind of feel how I feel and it is a lot, but it's for some reason I just feel like, you know, you get to a point in one of these races and you just feel like you need so much. I mean, your body it's it's not just like physically, but cognitively you're using a lot. Uh, obviously there's what you normally burn a baseline.
And I also just think your body just gets so like turned around that like it almost doesn't even if you know there's the perfect 2 to1 carb ratio, all that stuff, it almost doesn't absorb everything. So yeah. So I carried um about 10 hours worth of food and that was uh to start off with was like carb steel gels and then I had a bunch of bars.
So I like to I like to do a lot of solid food. I know there are people who will do like a 24-hour race entirely on liquid. Um, and I think that's absolutely ridiculous.
Like, you know, doing doing 24 hours on drink based, if you think about it, you might be getting in the calories you need and the carbs you need, but there's nothing filling your stomach. It's just liquid. >> So, for me, I separate fueling and hydration.
So, I do gels and bars or once I started buying food, it was mostly Harbo. Um, and then, uh, like I love Oreos and donuts and stuff like that. Um, and then my water is just water or water with electrolyte stuff in it because for me I just it's easier to keep track of.
And also what I find is one of the biggest challenges in the long race is flavor fatigue. You're just taking in so much sweet stuff, you get tired of it. And so having water that's just water, not like sugary water is is a is a really big benefit.
So yeah, I mean when I uh when I started I had 10 hours worth of food. I had those spare layers and stuff, hammerhead, battery pack, um, lights, and spares. And yeah, that's that's pretty much it.
I did bring four and a half lers of water. And so that was a decision I was very thankful for. I saw people at the start and I'm sure you felt the same way where you look at your setup and you start secondguessing yourself because you're like, "Oh, everyone else has nothing.
" Yeah, I didn't so much cuz I wasn't really going to race it, but I definitely found I only brought three liters of water and I definitely was long periods like 4hour periods or no water sometimes. >> And there were people with even less. There were people who were starting um starting the race with probably about what I'd carry for a 100 mile race except for the lights.
>> It's pretty hard to emphasize to someone who hasn't done it how remote it is. Like you kind of think, oh no, I I'll get a garage. There'll be a shop there.
Uh there's just nothing like so like you you 10 hours of food. So is this is the strategy here eat from your 10 hours of food at the start. So we start out in Granada.
We go up that long climb. We have a couple of like mini desert sections which I actually thought was the desert. And then we get to the first stop in Grai before the desert loop.
Y >> so is your strategy to eat from your 10our supply until you get there then stock up as much as you can in Kafi eat that and then go back into almost a reserve fund of your 10 hours until you get to the next shop. Is that the basic strategy? >> Yeah.
So I tried to stay ahead of it. So I tried to like make sure I had some spare. So if felt, you know, if there was a store there, I would stop.
Um I did go through Grae without stopping to get food. I did get water though. So that was something where I ended up having to fill up water way more often.
I stopped before gra I think twice and then I stopped in gra no I stopped in gra I stopped in the next place. It was it was like it was like every town pretty much. I was like I don't know you know I have on the map when the next place will be but you don't know even if you map it all out.
You don't know how long it's going to take you. Like if you get stuck in that desert and you have a flat tire or something and you're just standing out there trying to fix it, that could be, you know, you could do an hour extra. And >> was like going to saves nine hours or something crazy like that after ripping a sidewall trying to get out of the desert.
>> Yeah. And you It's It's not just like a performance thing. It gets to the point where it's actually dangerous.
Like you >> I mean this like you could die out there. Like it's real. Somebody, not to jinx somebody here, but somebody will die for sure.
Yeah. >> At some point, if it's not bad, it's one of these events, the ultras, because there's a total mismatch between Instagram, YouTube culture of influencers making videos about these and it looks super glossy and aspirational as an event. And then the reality of you need to be a very complete bike rider to even finish this in terms of you need to understand how to control your bike on differing terrain, manage fatigue, understand nutrition, be a good mechanic, just be quite resilient in a number of ways.
And that's just to finish this. >> Yeah, exactly. And yeah, I mean, I think it's it's also something where I think it's pretty easy to go for a average person go finish even a 100 mile gravel race if you but like no matter who you are, doesn't matter whether you're Lachland or anyone, finishing one of these is still like it's still a challenge.
And I think that's that's one of the cool things, but it's also one of those things where it makes sense why there's an application. And it makes sense why more and more races are like you have to show that you have experience doing these ultra events because self-supported, you know, for a lot of people, you're out there in a country you don't know. You may not speak the language.
You're in the middle of nowhere. There's no like Ubers. There's nothing like that.
Um, and you know, you can you can get into trouble. And yes, there's often other people out there on course who, you know, will if some something's really bad, they're going to stop, but you never know how far somebody is behind you. You could be waiting half an hour, an hour.
>> But it's even at that, what does the next person do? Cuz I came across that crash where dude had a broken collar bone. It's like >> what am I going to do?
I was like, I have some parcamol if you wanted, but beyond that, like I don't know, cell phone signal. Like I'm in the same situation as you here. >> I'm also pretty close on the time cut.
So, you know, I'm I'm happy to be here in sympathetic for like 10 minutes, but I can't stay with you for two hours here. >> Yeah. Yeah, exactly.
It's and it's it's a challenge for sure. Um, but yeah, I think for me it's just was just bringing enough for the first first section, making sure I stayed ahead of it. But what happened is, you know, as you know, in Spain, you were mentioning your previous podcast, it's it's Spain.
It's not it's not a, you know, I come from the US where everything is convenience culture. Like you can go in Onbound XL at 2 a.m.
in some middle middle of nowhere town in Kansas and there's a 24-hour gas station and convenience store 100% of the time. >> In Spain there's not. And so you have to be prepared for that.
And I refilled at Gore. That was my last food stop. And I got I every nook and cranny was filled with food.
Like pack, you know, all my bags, like stuffing my tail fin, stuffing my pockets, everything. And from there, I think it was probably about I was thinking, okay, I'll probably have like 10 11 hours till my next stop, but I was down to half a bag of Harbo and I was having to ration it and I'm like I mean I was starting to panic for sure because water is, you know, there's a lot of fountains in Spain overnight. I almost ran out of water, but I was able to, you know, you kind of sniff out fountains.
You get really good at like riding through a town and being like, I think there's going to be a fountain over there. And I on my hammerhead I had the a lot of fountains marked and also the hammerhead natively on the base map shows where fountains are. So like that's an easier thing.
But with the food it's like if it's it was like 4:00 a.m. and I'm like well stuff might not open till 9 or 10 I'm pretty screwed.
>> Yeah. >> Luckily I got to a point where um the sun had just risen. It was like 8:30 a.
m. and I was in this little came to this little village. I'm like I was just like praying.
I'm not like a religious person. So, I was just praying there's food there and there was a couple of workmen um outside and I was like, "Is there any I asked them if there's any food in town?" Like, "Oh, yeah.
The store's open." I'm like, "There's a store in this town?" Like, I got so excited and it was a little bit little ways off the course.
If you weren't looking for it, I think I did have it marked on my map, but if you weren't like really actively searching for it, you weren't going to find it. It just would look like it was like in someone's house. And it was a little >> I went to this store.
Or was this just before? Was there a big climb about Tankai after this? >> It was right near the coast.
Um I forget I honestly forget what town it what town it was in. Um it was trying to remember if there was a climb, but it was yeah a little nook and it had everything you need. It was like, you know, the size of my bedroom and tons of candy.
It had pastries. It had bread. It had soda.
It had everything you could have wanted. And I was like so happy. And the the store owner was like wondering who's looking at me like this guy is really excited to be in my store.
It's almost like he's like he's like won the lottery or something and I got €32 worth of junk food which in Spain where everything is, you know, I'd say relatively cheap compared to the US. >> That's a lot of junk food >> and I gave him a 50 and I was like, "Keep it." And he's like, "No, no, no, no.
" And I was like, "No, you literally like you literally saved me. Like I this is like this is like my you were like my lifeline." And so I got uh I mean I again I completely filled every nook and cranny, but just to eat there I got two fullsized donuts, a thing of Fanta and half a bag of candy.
And I down that in like one go and then just kept riding. And it was like as much as it was like fuel I needed, it was also the mental fuel. It was like that like oh man like I >> I just it was it was a second wind I I needed.
But >> I mean just got lucky there again. Like I mapped everything out. >> We had an experience like that with a a shop.
We went into a town again, totally empty. I'd probably been out of water for two, three hours at this point, rationing food. We get into this town and it's like siesta time is just starting and the lady was pulling the shutters down on the shop and she reopened the shop to let us in.
She's like like rapido rapido. Uh we got around the shop like I bought like a sliced pan of bread, coal cut meats, like made up sandwiches on the bench outside and I was like, "Oh, this is phenomenal." But what I noticed and you were telling your story because of the pacing so different, I didn't reach those shops like as frequently as you did obviously.
So the shops were like much further spread apart. So I was having to rely a lot on the buckadillos in some of these cafes. They're just not that carb dense and they're really difficult to transport.
So we try and stop at Gafi is a good example. Like we rode to Gafi and then you the desert loop. I think it was like 10 hours before we got to Gafi and then we have like two buckadillos and like five Cokes or something there.
But I'm out of food and now I'm trying to like bring two, three, four buckadillos with me to get me around the desert loop. So it's Yeah, it's it's a definite logistical difference in the two approaches. What do Ajiratalia, Stage Slayer, Mads Person, and half the professional pelaton have in common?
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And I think, you know, a lot of people will be like, "Oh, man. It's upfront. It's so easy.
It's just everything's so fast, but there's still it's still incredibly challenging." But I I think I have a lot more respect for the people who it's taking longer cuz it's just harder. Like you're out there longer, you're even if you're doing less power, you're burning more.
Like there's no like no matter how much less power you're doing, if you're out there for 5 days instead of, you know, two, say, uh you're you're burning more. you're putting more of t you know it's more taxing on your body and I think >> I just think it's different I like because what you done I don't know if I could do that like if I went back on my own I don't know I don't even mean the result I mean the process I'm pretty sure I couldn't do the result but the process of like just no sleep figuring out how to fuel straight cuz I was getting an evening meal you know no matter if the day was super hard I still got to stop and go >> for two hours and have dinner and and stayed in a hotel that night in Gore. I wasn't camping every night.
So, it's a totally different. I think there's like the way I was looking at there's like the dudes who race it like you. That's one type of event in this.
The second type of event is people who go hard but they bring they bivvie. There's another type of person that goes hard but they don't bivvie. They stay in hotels.
And then the the next category like me who are just going through it for an experience then a combination of bivvie camp and and hotel but they're so unique those different like subsections within the race and everyone's having a totally different experience within this one flagship event Badlands. >> Yeah, totally. I think I also noticed at the start like people are going so hard.
I don't know if you noticed this on the first >> like >> I was saying this to Sarah because the plan initially was I didn't want to detract from her event. So I was like >> maybe I'll just go like an hour up the road and then just like float and kind of keep an eye on her tracker and never stay more than an hour ahead of her so if she has a problem I can double back. And then I was like okay you know I'll stay with you on the first climb.
And I could hear I'm like easier easier easier. And I can hear people beside me like like clearly zone four. like you're like you're way above LT2 and you're 10 minutes into a fiveday event.
>> Yeah. I I had a very clear plan. I uh I know that you're going to be talking to my coach, Alex Wilburn, but we we kind of were like, you know, at the end of the day, it's a non-drafting race.
And even if it was a drafting race, even if you were in a pairs category, there's so much climbing that like a lot of the and there there's so much just rolling slow train, you know, drafting, even if even it was a thing, it wouldn't be that big a deal. But despite, you know, all these solo people having to ride alone anyway, it was like the first, not even the first big climb. I'm talking about where the finish was.
You ride past where the finish is, you turn left up that little kick. >> I was getting dropped there and I'm like, I'll see you guys later. I just I was like very calm with that.
I'm like, >> I know I'm going to see these people later because just physiologically like >> you can't be riding over your threshold like that at the beginning of an 800. it like every match you burn, people say this in short races, like every match you burn over threshold is something you'll pay for, but it is infinitely magnified in a long race. And so I just rode my own pace, kept it nice and steady.
And >> what was your own pace? Were you look pacing off parameter or you just going off air? >> Yeah.
So I I you know used to race never off power meter but in a race like this where you're solo and there's no drafting in the beginning especially you need to look at your power because it's so easy to go too hard because in the beginning you know 300 watts feels h so easy but if you're going you know or even higher than that if you're going like um if you're riding at a pace that feels like oh this is a solid pace like I'm doing you know I'm going pretty fast it's probably a bad sign because you're probably going too hard. And of course, like the end of the race, 300 watts feels hard. But what I did is I pretty much just said, "Okay, cap at 300 watts.
I'm not going I'm just going to I'm not going to go over that." And of course, there's little steep kickers you have to go over just to get your bike up it. But for me, >> m on the first day, like you couldn't get up that unless you were down 400 watts, like >> Exactly.
Yeah. And so there's stuff like that, but as much as I could just keep it easy as possible, I ran a 40 to chain ring with a 52 in the back. Um, and that was, you know, that was great.
like >> sensible like my gearing. >> I think yeah, I think there's like there's a big thing where of course like especially among us guys where it's like I want to run a big chaining it looks better all that stuff. >> Well, I just didn't change my gravel setup.
I was just cuz I was just going for I was just like it'll be grand. I'll just you know give it a bit of on the climbs but I was learning like a 47 34 or something. I was like >> going up some of the climbs.
I looked down at one point at a cadence of 11. I was like, "This is not good for your knees." >> Yeah.
And and it's it's also easy if you're pre-writing say part of the course a few days before, you're like, "Oh, okay. I can push this." But it's like, well, what happens when you're, you know, 48 hours in or whatever or 3 days in, like >> with 20 kg of extra luggage?
>> Exactly. Exactly. And so I always found like if you know if you are going a speed where you need to be pedaling a 4010 then in an ultra race you're probably just going to be resting.
You're probably just going to be trying to get arrow and resting because there's just it's not like a time trial where it's like we're ekking every second out. My whole mentality in this race was keep moving forward. That's that's it.
Because like at the end of the day like no matter how slowly you're moving forward, you're still moving forward. And so every I just tried to keep that mentality like okay even if I'm feeling terrible just keep making progress keep making progress because everyone's feeling terrible like everyone's going really slowly it's just all like it's all relative so if I keep moving forward that's infinitely better than sitting there on the side you know feeling bad about myself and also you know as as you guys said the cafe legs become infinitely worse like I would stop pedaling for >> I swear for 10 seconds and I had cafe legs. Like I'm like, how is this possible?
Like this doesn't make sense. And so for me it was just really um yeah, really just just keeping that keeping that forward momentum. >> Did you sleep at all?
>> Nope. Um so I stopped for everyone's like, "Oh wow, you stopped for 33 minutes during the race." Because the the tracker stop time, like the the race tracker stop time was totally off.
I think it said one of the guys had stopped for zero minutes and I'm like, "Yeah, right." Um, so we obviously hammerhead's more accurate. So I think I stopped for an hour and 50 minutes total.
And that was just refilling, you know, buying stuff, etc. Um, occasionally like, you know, stopping at time, okay, what what where do I have to go? That sort of thing.
And that all adds up for sure. Um, stopping to pee, all that to go to the bathroom, stuff like that. Um, and I found like for me that, you know, one of the things about stopping was efficiency.
So, in something like Unbound where a drafting is allowed, I mean, those stops are chaos. If people are running into the store, it's as fast as you can go because you don't want to be left behind. >> Yeah.
>> Exactly. With this, it's like I just tried to go into the mentality just like stay calm. You don't need to rush to these stops, but you also don't like doawle, but don't panic and just like buy what you need, chill, you know, make sure you know you're all set to go, you have everything you need, you don't forget anything.
and then get moving again. Um, but one of the the challenges is like fountains for say for for example for filling water are really quick. Like you don't need to buy a bottle of water or anything like that where if you go to a bar to fill water you got to buy bottles of water you've got to like with a hydration pack you you know they're kind of hard to fill with one hand and everything.
So you have to pre-open the bottles of water make sure you don't spill them. um fill them, you know, find the trash, throw them out, all that stuff. And so that add that adds up.
So where I could if I just needed water, I'd always go to a fountain. Even if it was maybe not super cold water, I'm like, it's going to be warm in 10 minutes anyway with how hot it is. So that was kind of the the uh that was kind of the approach.
And I think one of the good things about having four and a half liters of water is a lot of the big bottles of the bars were one and a half liters. So it's really easy. It's like, okay, >> yeah, >> if I'm pretty much out, I need three of them.
if I, you know, just need a pack, I need two of them. And so it's like, it's very easy to figure out what you need to buy. >> So what's that sensation like?
So we started on Sunday. You rode straight through Sunday night. You get into Monday morning, sun comes up.
You know, a lot of people have ridden, >> you know, through the night once, but then you get through Monday night, that's getting into pretty uncharted territory for most people, at least for me. So you're riding through the night, sun's coming up and you're finishing at some point on Tuesday, was it? >> Yeah.
So Tuesday at 1:30. So I think the good thing for me was that was uncharted territory for me as well. Second night like that was definitely something I was scared about, but I think it got to a point where the second day felt like it went much faster.
Um, it was I would say my least favorite section of the race, especially early on. like the first part of the coast was nice, but the whole Almaria section with the sand, I was just like, "Get me through this." >> Um, and and yeah, I had to run through all that sand.
I was like, I can't ride this. And also, yeah, but I think >> no one no one say. >> Yeah, I mean I mean I was thinking honestly during that I was like I think even Vanderpole would struggle.
It was it was so deep. It was not like Yeah, it was not ridable. So, uh, anyway, so the the thing about the second night was it was I was not close to the finish, but you know, in the grand scheme of the race and how long the race was, I was close to the finish.
So, I had this like I think I had less than 100 miles left and I'm like, "Okay, I have I have this carrot at the end and I'm going to finish sometime tonight." And so, that really gave me the extra motivation. But I think it the cold really was was actually a challenge.
It was quite cold that second night. And the last, as you know, the last section had like a 20 20 somethingk descent and only that little kicker at the end. It was on the road and I was freezing.
And I I think like if I had been earlier on in the race, that would have been really tough mentally cuz I was just like shivering. I was like pretty miserable, but I'm like I'm almost there. It's not a big deal.
Um but yeah, I think if I had had to go through a second sunrise, I think it would have been Yeah, it would have been mentally really really challenging. But I think your your perception of time also just starts to change. >> Yeah, it's totally that was one of the biggest things I noticed where I'd be 4 hours in.
So, we were trying to finish kind of like by 1:00 a.m. if we could and trying to get started by 6 a.
m. So, the first 6:00 a.m.
to 10:00 a.m. until kind of the sun was coming up at like 7:45 or so.
But that's 6:00 a.m. to 10 a.
m. It felt like four hours felt like 15 minutes on your local club spin. Exactly.
Yeah. >> It's hard to explain for someone that hasn't ridden those ultras. >> Yeah.
And I'd say a lot of people will ask me after one of these races, does it feel like long rides are any shorter? And I would say afterwards your body normalizes and 4 hours still feels long. >> Yeah.
I rode four hours yesterday and it felt long again. And I was like, >> yeah, damn. >> Yeah, I know.
Exactly. It's really odd because you think, oh, like surely it's going to feel like really short, but it it it doesn't. But within that experience, you just get into this zone.
Um, it's almost like it's like an out-of- body experience. And some people like talk about flow state and everything like that. And I think you get into this level of flow state in a race like that where yeah, time does just kind of fly by and you're like, "Oh, wow.
I just got through another day." Um, but at the same time during that you're mentally you're in this absolute purgatory. like it's it's absolute hell a lot of the time, but even then time still flies.
And it's it's a very it's hard to describe the experience. And one of the reasons I always tell people like no matter what you what your goals are, an event like this, like it's worth doing something like this. Maybe not Badlands, but maybe something like Unbound XL where it's a little I mean it's not accessible.
It's a little bit more accessible, but it's a really unique feeling to ride through the night. >> It's a really unique sense of accomplishment. like there's nothing better than crossing that finish line and just the level of happiness and like >> like accomplishment you feel.
Um but also just looking looking back on the memories of like okay I had this experience and it's a reminder it's like wow you know I can do really challenging things because you know it's one thing going and doing a cross race on the weekend but like finishing a cross race it's not it's not for most people most cyclists not a big deal but for something like this no matter who you are that little square tile you get for finishing this I I put that put in perspective I put that in the same place I keep my passport That's that's how important it was to me. So, >> but you know, but Sarah was like that as well because I was trying to say to her cuz I kind of screwed us in terms of I got sick on day two. So, we were planning to ride kind of 16 to 20 hours a day and thinking, okay, we'll get this finished in three to four days.
And then I got sick on day two and I was like creep. And I was like every two graphic every 5k it was coming out boat ends and I was like oh it's like I don't know if I'm gonna get through today. But as you said with Ultra, you have no choice really to we get through the day.
So I was looking on going, I have to get to Gore to scratch because I can't scratch here in the middle of the desert. Like or am I going to just lie down and die? So like I'm trying to pace myself to get to Gore as best I can.
So we rode I know we rode six, seven hours that day, but barely moving because I was just stopping all the time. Got to go Gore and then Sarah's like, "Look, I'm not going to be able to finish this race if you're not doing it. Like I just I don't have the skills.
I don't feel safe enough on my own." moment. So I was like, gosh, like I'm going to stay with you and if you ride tomorrow, great.
If you don't, we'll just say I'll come back next year and call it quits. And I was like, all right, okay, look, it's your choice. And I woke up the next morning, I was feeling pretty much better.
But then we were on the back foot because now we're like I'm kind of doing the math on it and texting my buddies who are finished nearly at this point or getting close to finished or have ridden it last year and they're like you're really close on the time cut here. Like I don't know if you're I remember putting up an Instagram story actually saying look this is the groupto I am the bus driver. We're going to arrive on Friday like just before the time cut.
So if you want to make the time cut get into the groupetto. I was kind of tongue and cheek joking but then it actually did turn out to be like we basically were the groupto. I think we're the second last people to finish.
But it was super important to her to get that medal where I was trying to say, "Hey, look, you finished at 2:00, which is a time cut or 7:00, it doesn't matter." I was like, "You still finished." She's like, "No, I need to finish by 2:00.
" I was like, "Whoa, it's amazing what people will do for a piece of metal." Or I think Winston Churchill had an old saying like, "It's a it's amazing how long and hard people will fight for a piece of blue ribbon. It feels similar to that.
" >> Yeah. And I think most of the time you talk about, you know, finisher prices and I think most people are like they're kind of like, I don't really care about it. Like, you know, if you finish your local race, you get a finisher prize.
Like, okay, whatever. But it there's there is just something about that. But it it is also funny how, you know, if there's a time that you have to finish by, there's something about the human body where you'll find a way to do it.
Like, you probably are going to cut it really tight. But it's same thing like um you know if you're given 20 minutes to do a task you'll do it in 20 minutes. If you're given three hours to do a task you'll do it in three hours.
And and I think it's it's this really interesting human human uh yeah it's like psychological thing but yeah I mean you did exactly what a professional group header would do. You didn't waste any extra energy. You got it done just right inside the time limit.
You know you're you're doing exact exactly what you're supposed to do. What do you think in terms of recommending Badlands to friends? Having ridden it now, I've kind of walked my position back then.
And at the start of the year when Sarah was looking for a goal, we talked about a few different ones. I was like, "Oh, Badlands looks fun." I' had some friends who ridden it.
Having ridden it now, I would have never recommended that to Sarah as a 12-month goal and a first ultra. I think it's too hardcore. And maybe start with like a XL version of the Tracka or Unbound or one of these events as a gateway to this.
That's just my opinion having uh ridden it. What do you think the sort of person you would recommend this to? I can remember vividly a December training spin.
I was on the back roads. There was fog, wet leaves, potholes everywhere. I was riding on a descent onehanded trying to stab this tiny little mold button and praying the battery would last until the final climb of the day.
You know that anxiety, the is it going to die anxiety? It totally ruins your ride. And the truth is, for years that was normal.
Every season I got into this repetitive cycle. I'd end up buying a new set of lights in the winter. Normally plastic lights, plastic brackets which would invariably snap, charging ports which would fail, and batteries that would fade.
Most lights feel very disposable. They're shiny for the winter and then straight into the bin at the end of the winter. And we repeat again the following winter.
That all changed when I got my first set of exposure lights. Suddenly, this wasn't a consumable anymore. This was a piece of kit built to last a lifetime.
That's why I'm absolutely buzzing about the fully updated exposure range. Reflex 2.0 automatically adjusts the brightness of your light.
It dials it down when you're going at slower speeds on the climbs and then unleashes the full power of the lumens on the descent so your hands stay where they need to be on the bars so you don't actually crash. There's another really cool feature. It's called reserve mode and it kicks in when run time hits zero.
It drops to a low beam and you get another 30 minutes to get you out of trouble and get you home. USBC charging is a total game changer to my mind. It means you can get now 70% faster charging.
But importantly for me, you can top up your lights from a power bank mid ride. So, if you're doing an ultra, a bike packing trip, or you're going on an event like me at Badlands, just plug it into the power bank and away you go. No need to worry about batteries failing.
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com to check out their full range. >> Yeah, totally. I think yeah, definitely start with something like I mean, that's kind of my the process I took was stuff like Unbound XL.
Well, really I started Exo and then I got into marathon and stage racing and gravel and then I jumped to like Unbound XL and Tracka and then I jumped to this and now my next step is like getting into more of the like ultra like bike packing stuff and so Exactly. So I think yeah it's better to take those steps um because I think like we were talking about with the nighttime you know one night you can wrap your head around it. You can be like okay I can I think I can do this like that this is this is doable.
With Tracka, for example, you start at 6:00 a.m., you know, say if even if it takes you, you know, 48 hours, yeah, okay, you're going through two nights, but that second night, you can see that you can see the finish line.
You can like be like, "Okay, I'm almost there." >> Whereas something like Badlands, like it's so hard to wrap your head around being, you know, 400k in and you're you're like, "Oh, I'm halfway there. That's great.
" And you're like, "Well, I still have 400k left." Like it's no matter who you are, it's hard to wrap your head around. So yeah, I think like something like Unbound XL, something like uh Gravel Worlds in in Nebraska, that's probably even better one to start at.
It's 300 miles. It's the terrain is challenging, but it's not super technical. It's like very accessible.
Um it's a really wellrun event and uh that's that would be a good one. Again, Tracka 560 also good. That one is challenging from the sense that you do go up into the Pyrenees.
So, it's this really diverse range of geography and climate, which is really cool, but also, you know, you're going up to you're going up to like over 2,000 mters or higher um a few times. And so, in its proper mountains, you got to be really careful up there. But, yeah, I'd say stuff like that is is definitely a a good a good starting point for anyone who wants to try Ultra.
>> Do you think you need to do the 12, 14, 16 hour training rides? No, no. So I I mean I love big adventures.
So I will admit that like sometimes I'll go out and do really big big rides. Like this last bike packing trip I had like 11 and a half hour day and it was most the day the average day length is probably 7 8 hours. But the longest training ride I do is 6 7 hours I'd say.
Um and I think there's a there's a couple of arguments. One is that you know the the long training ride like that is not physical. It's for not for the physical training.
It's more for like the psychological like, okay, now I know what it's going to feel like. But I would almost argue that you have a certain number of physical matches you can burn in a year and you have a certain number of mental matches. >> Yeah, I like this.
So I look where you go with this. >> Yeah. And ultra racing burns a lot of mental matches.
And if you're replicating that in training, it's almost better not to know. Honestly, it's almost better to just go in and be like blissfully ignorant and have forgotten what the last ultra feels like and be like >> remember how great Unbound XL was like because you only you only remember like the >> there's something about the human human mind. You kind of tend to forget the worst parts of an >> I'm already starting to romanticize Badlands a little bit and I cross the finish line going I am going back crit racing.
I'm never doing this again. >> Exactly. It's it's the wildest thing.
It's like, I know I was absolutely miserable during that experience, but you're like, it was was pretty good. Um, so I think, yeah, I think 12, 14 hour training rides, they're going to burn a lot of physical matches and they're going to burn those mental matches that you need. If you're talking about like a 12-h hour training ride, not training, just a fun adventure with a friend.
Maybe that's a little different, but I would say the most important thing is in terms of preparation is um, you know, being able to fuel. If you can't fuel on a race like this, quite honestly, that's you're not going to be able to finish. Like I'm just going to be honest.
Like fueling is it's like not being able to put you know I have one uses gas in the car but it's like not being able to refill your car. Like you are going to run out. Like it's not like a cross race where oh it's an hour no big deal or even a mountain bike race where you can probably get through it.
You're talking you know anywhere from 40 hours to 5 days. You need to be able to put fuel in and absorb it and not get, you know, not have major GI issues. Obviously outside of outside of eating something bad, which sounds like what happened to you, but um but yeah, practicing that, practicing using your lights, making sure you feel comfortable riding in the dark, but that can just be, you know, we both live in areas where in the winter it's it's often times dark when we're riding.
>> Go out and just practice, you know, in the morning could be a morning commute and you you're a couple hours in the dark and you do some off-road and you get used to that. Even just using understand the settings on your lights like you know exposure as well. It's like there's a few different settings on and understanding >> like the the dynamic one which brightens up on the sense is a really useful feature as well.
>> Yeah, exactly. And just like knowing those things, testing all your equipment. So like your battery pack and your cables, like make sure your cables work.
I mean everyone has this happen with their iPhone. Like sometimes your charger works like why isn't my iPhone charging? And it's probably your, you know, your cable screwed.
making sure all that is dialed in. Um, but I think yeah, again, 12 to 14 hour training rides. I I don't think it's worth it.
No. >> What's next for you? Will you go and try and win Badlands next year?
>> Yeah. So, we'll see. I mean, obviously it's a you know, it's an application race and, you know, it's I think >> I imagine you're back in with a a podium.
>> You know, you you never know and I mean I I'm definitely going to put my name in the hat. I would love to go back there. Um, but you know, we'll have to we'll have to see.
I think there's there's definitely a bit of chatter amongst people who've won the race that you notice that almost no one who's won the race goes back because you can't go any better and it's such um you're almost doomed to fail. And so the only person I think who recently has gone back would be Cara uh Cara Dixon uh who she won last year and she won back this year. And so yeah, I think you know I'd love to go back and win it, but I think for me next year it's really going all in on the ultra.
I've kind of been straddling regular gravel and mountain bike and and ultra. And I think I've just realized this is where my my uh not destiny, but my niche is. So like I', you know, Unbound, I finished top five twice and then I finished fourth at track 560 this year.
So I want to go back there. Unbound, you know, we'll see. I would love to go back and win it, but I think I've I've discovered these European ones are just they're more fun.
and Unbound has gotten to a level of intensity um that it's it's almost not as fun anymore. It's just I mean, for example, when I first did it in 2022, it was like an afterthought. They like waved goodbye to you at the start and like, "Okay, we'll hope to see you tomorrow if alive or dead.
" And now it's like they had the helicopter, you know, the helicopter they used to film the Grand Prix events. They had that at the start of the XL and I was like, "Wow, this has changed." Um, so yeah.
I mean then for me I'm hoping to do Atlas Mountain Race next year. Um, hopefully as a as a duo. So I would really love to do a pairs race.
I've done one duo race uh for like um like one of the epic mountain bike series. So I did Swiss Epic as a duo and I really loved it. And so >> yeah, so I think Atlas as a duo would be cool.
Uh, so that's kind of yeah, it's kind of the rough rough roadmap, but there's there's so many races I I want to do and there's just not enough time and it's like it's yeah, there's just my bucket list uh my bucket list keeps growing, let's put it that way. >> Chris, thanks so much for your time. Thanks for giving us an insight into the front of the bike race at Badlands and yeah, I'll have to get you back on.
We'll talk uh what your next event when you get it nailed down. We'll talk through some train and how preparation is going for it. >> Yeah, well, thank you for having me again.
It's it's cool chatting. Yeah, chatting, you know, kind of two different ends, two different experiences. And I think, yeah, it's it's uh cool cool to hear your stories as well.
>> Cheers, Chris.