Today it's a big one. Lackla Morton joins me to reveal why he stepped out at a World Tour Pelaton to ride his own path. Swapping podiums for gravel, bike packing, and adventure.
We talk joy over metrics, ultra suffering, and keeping cycling weird. Let's roll back. Welcome to the Road Podcast.
>> Thanks for having me, mate. >> Thanks for doing this, buddy. It's been a while coming.
>> Yeah. Yeah, it has been. What did we meet three or four years ago in London?
>> Yeah. couple of beers at the premiere of one of your one of your many migration gravel. >> That's right.
Yeah. Yeah. >> The mutual connect back then.
>> Yeah. >> I kind of curious about I've never heard you talking about this about your evolution as an athlete. Like I I guess you're like any guy who starts cycling.
You start and you dream of winning the tour of France. you dream of being getting paid to do the thing you love and you come through Jelly Belly. You're you're tracking perfect through, you know, successful amateur into Conti.
You step into the world tour. You're living the dream, but at some point there's a fork in the road. Was your choice to move away from the high performance chasing the world tour?
Was that your choice? Was it a conscious thing or did it just was it a drift in direction? >> Uh, it was definitely a drift.
Um, you know, I joined the world tour when I was 19 or 20 with uh Garmin. And yeah, up until that point, like all my cycling goals were based on, you know, winning road races and trying to be a professional in Europe. Um and then I I sort of achieved that like kind of early and then um just wasn't feeling like super fulfilled with that pursuit.
Um you know at that time I uh I'd moved to Europe and was pretty isolated from friends and family and sort of um just had that like question mark of like is this what I want to be doing? Uh, so yeah, I stepped out of the world tour after my first 2-year contract and race with Jelly Belly. Um, and at that point, I thought I would just race a year while I worked out what I was going to do next.
Um, but in that period, I started doing some more like outside of racing, bike trips with my brother and um, you know, some off-road things that really like opened up a new part of cycling for me. Um, and then I sort of had this duality where um I wanted to do that stuff and the racing was the the thing that enabled me to sort of live that lifestyle. Uh, and so yeah, it went well at Jelly Belly and I had the opportunity to go back to the world tour with Dimension Data.
Um, and during that period, yeah, I enjoyed the spot I was in in racing. I kind of like struck a balance of like, okay, this is how far I'm willing to to push it. It enables me to be like this sort of rider.
I can do my job, help people out, you know, lead a race every now and then, but was a nice like balance. Um, and then in the offseasons, I'd go and do these trips with my brother and um kind of explore the adventure side a little bit more. And then just sort of weirdly um the opportunity came up with Rafa and EF to sort of try and mix the two a bit more um I guess like formally as part of like making a season.
>> When you're talking about balance like what's the conflict you're pushing against? Is it kind of like this your authentic self that doesn't want to go all in on the high performance? >> I I just think my Yeah.
like the pursuit of like really high performance I think just with my personality is problematic. Um I'm not very I'd say I'm like when I was very uh good on the road and performing at like a very high level it was to the detriment of like a lot of other things in my life. Um like I was very >> sing relationships >> uh both you know um like I had to really sort of put the blinkers on and just focus on what I was doing um and be pretty pretty selfish and pretty locked down um to make it happen.
And that was just like like weighing it up. It wasn't worth it to me. Um, so yeah, I'd sort of spend time where like, okay, for a month I'd have to lock it down and and do something, but I could also then, you know, go and enjoy myself on the bike like the rest of the time.
So, it was sort of like a a duality, I would say. Um, but I I still I I enjoyed racing for for for what it was. Um but when the opportunity came to to spend more time like you know pursuing things that were new to me, exciting to me and then like as I started doing it more I was like oh wow this is something that speaks to me a lot more and and I get a lot more out of.
Um and then seemingly like the team got more out of me doing that and then organically it just kind of grew into all I do. You know, the first season was still like a few events off road and then a full grow >> season. Was that the year you had the alternate program?
You house has been on the podcast. I don't know how many times he's been on. Loads.
Uh Finny and you went off on like Unbound and stuff. >> Yeah. Yeah.
Fun year. >> Yeah, it was fun. It was so fun.
Um and yeah, it was basically Finny House and I were a squad and yeah, we Unbound was our first race off road. It's so funny because like you like compare now going to do that race uh versus when we first did I had like a big frame bag. I had like spare chain just like brake pads like it was we had no idea what we were doing.
Um but I love that element of just being sort of like fish out of water jumping into it. Uh, and that year I also did I think GB Duo, which was like my first sort of ultra experience, and we also did Leadville. Um, but at the same time was still doing Yeah.
like a full road calendar. >> I remember chatting to House on it. I think there's a moment, it might be in one of the EF Gone Racing documentaries as well, where you guys let a break go.
I don't know if you let it go, but there was a break gone in Unbound the first time you wrote it. And then you're like, "Right, it's time for us to do our stuff." So the two of you hit the front, start trading off, and he turns, he's like, "Bro, I'm coming apart pretty bad here.
" And you're like, "I've come apart hours ago. Just keep riding." >> Yeah, that's exactly it.
I think it was um Colin Strickland had taken off and I mean, we had no idea who anyone was. So we were like, "Oh, this guy's so far to go. We'll get him.
" And uh he was so strong, that bloke, we never even got near catching him. But I think it was Stetna Ster house and I like eventually like, "All right, we're squeezing here." Um, and House was going super strong and then he flattered and it was super hot.
And in the time it took him to plug the tire, he just completely overheated and was useless. And then for the last 120k, he's just on my wheel and we were just like not even not even racing. We're just like, we just got to get to the finish of this thing.
that. Yeah, it was fun. >> I'm really I'm really into the origins of mountain bike at the moment.
I'm watching actually I'll send you on a documentary after. It's really cool. Uh this you know the repack race was like the first mountain biking.
>> No, >> they were doing it. Oh, so cool. So, they came up with this downhill course for the first ever mountain bike and I'm going to say late7s somewhere in California.
Wendy Craig, uh she's brilliant. this female photographer who documented the whole thing and the documentaries about her documenting the early years of mountain biking. But they're just these dudes wearing like double denim and a pair of gloves and a baseball cap sending it on down hills with like they only had a bike with the pedal backwards brake.
So they called it the repack race because the the hill was so steep they were going down that when you got to the bottom of it your hub was toast. So you had to repack it with grease afterwards or it wasn't ridable ever. >> Great.
Was that Marin County or >> It might have been. Yeah, I know. It was like two kind of factions of the early mountain biking and they were taking apart like old messenger bikes and trying to figure out, oh, maybe we'd stop crashing if we had slightly wider tires.
They started going a little bit wider. It's awesome though. But those like early unbound years when you and House and Finny were going to them kind of remind me of that that it's a little bit it's a little bit unknown.
It's a little bit wild west. It's like can we finish, can we not? And you fast forward that to like your unbound win with, you know, hydration packs down the front to close frontal areas, pox arrow, helmet.
It's so so different. How do you how do you feel about that kind of morphing into something different? >> I mean, it's still kind of that that pioneering spirit, I think, in a way.
Um it's sort of it like for th that period I think everyone was working out like okay this is a thing um how do we go fast doing it and like how do we optimize you know setups training nutrition all that stuff to try and go fast in these events that no one has really targeted before in this way. Um, so I enjoyed that because there was no way of doing it. You know, you could kind of just play around with things.
Um, a lot of it was just like guesswork and messing around in, you know, the garage or training or like and that that element of it was was fun to me. Um, I think now the code's kind of been cracked in terms of like how do you go fast doing it? Um, so there is like a pretty set path.
I'd say it's not like the road where it's like very much dialed in, but it's pretty close to that. Um, so I mean I'm like I'm all for the the progression of the sport. I think um it's grown really quickly and it's like pulled a lot of people in like I mean at a professional level but also um at a participation level which I think is great.
it's got more people excited about riding off-road um and potentially just pulled more people into the sport. Um I think the the racing itself um now like having raced you know in the world tour on the road years ago it feels like a pretty similar level to that like what the road was when I left. Um, I know World Tour since I've left has gone like stratospheric, but um, like it's it's progressed in in that direction.
Um, which has like pros and cons, right? Uh, I think overall it's not like um a bad thing. I just think it's one of those it's so new.
Um, and I think the one thing that maybe the the elite level riders need [snorts] to take responsibility for is that they have um they have a lot of impact on the way the sport goes, you know, the way it's racad [clears throat] shouting at cloud sometimes on this as well, but it's like road if you even show up to like a a cap one race now. Everyone's, you know, understands their frontal area. They're pushing 140 grams of carbs an hour.
Like, you know, being a good bike handler, been able to go around corners, having a semideent threshold is generally not enough to win even at local cat one level. >> Ravel kind of feels like it's gone the same as well now. like the dudes in the front, they're all doing six watts a kilo.
Plus, as as the as these kind of as these evolve, they all only seem to be evolving in one direction and we're losing that, you know, like the early days of mountain biking. We talked about that. There's something countercultural.
There is something still countercultural about the bike. You know, most people choose to drive a car. Most people choose to be overweight.
Most people choose to not get outside in the fresh air. There's something countercultural in the essence of a bike. And do we lose that as we evolve only in one direction with the sport?
>> I think so. I think like um like cycling seems to have and it's probably exists in a bunch of other sports, but I only really follow bike riding, so that's where I see it. But it's um I mean trail running I think it's kind of a similar thing but there's like an obsession with the performance element and I think um a lot of it is driven by industry because um it it it's something to sell you know to get people get people to go faster.
They can sell the the gels they can sell the tires. they can sell the skin suits and like it's a an easy like welltrodden path in bike riding. Um as opposed to trying to sell like the well not even sell but just like push the the enjoyment and lifestyle factor and what it can be.
um I think is missing a huge part because I think the majority of people who like want to get on a bike are on a bike they if you want to go out on a on a Saturday ride it's like you want to go out with your mates and enjoy it. Um, and you don't want to have to like have a pair of arrow socks and, you know, uh, pockets like with 400 g of carbs just to be able to go keep up with the local bunch ride, you know, like um, there is like a an element there that's missed that I I wouldn't say it doesn't exist. Um, it exists, but it just doesn't exist uh, in the mainstream in the way I think it should.
Um, and it's interesting because it's also something that like I've um sort of discovered in my own path. And if you can go to some of these like smaller events, you know, um like I was in Vermont last or two weekends ago um and very small gravel event, you know, they have a running race alongside it. You camp there.
Um and that environment exists there. Um, but if you compare that to like going to an Unbound or like you go to see Otter or one of the big like gravel events, um, the atmosphere is is very different. And yeah, I think um there shouldn't be we shouldn't lose sight of that, you know, um because at the moment it's like you look at an unbound and it's gone from something like we're going to have this big adventure out in the Flint Hills to like uh it's kind of like Iron Man now.
You know, you have [snorts] someone trust me like I'm going to go 20 minutes quicker than I did last year or win my age group. >> I went to tracker last year and now look for context, we don't know each other super well. Like I've been around the bike my whole life.
Like my dad was in the army, but he was working on bikes after work every night. So from when as soon as I could lift a spanner, I was helping build bikes out the back shed by this dimly lit shed and paraffin like building Frankenstein bikes and racing them with no brakes down the street. Like I've been around it my whole life.
And then I've had a Cat One license for I don't know 15 years at this point. Never made it very far. Only got as far as Conti level, but raced in France and stuff.
And I went to tracka last year and I went down to sign on and I remember queuing at sign on and ringing one of my buddies and just going like I don't like I feel like an outsider here. I don't understand what's going on here and I actually just left sign on. I texted I think Spain tufted and I like sane gives us a route.
I'm not doing track tomorrow. And he sent me this mental going up that door and back down route. But I was like, I just didn't it was something I didn't recognize the bike.
I didn't recognize the people. I didn't recognize the culture. I was like, is that what happens when we just all try and be one thing?
When we all try and win the race, even though we have 99% of people have no chance of winning the race, everyone's crammed into skin suits. Everyone's obsessing on tire wit, on drivetrain efficiency, and it's like, what? We forgotten why we started riding.
Cuz it's fun and having a laugh at our mates. >> Yeah. Exactly.
Exactly. And I think like going back to it that can exist I think at the top level of it if that's what you want to do. Right.
I just the issue I have is that um people who come to participate in something like tracker and then yeah you feel like you're like on the outer because you're like oh I just thought I was going to show up and do this big ride and you know find a nice group and have a few stories to tell at the other end you know. Um that's when it's like becomes problematic I think. Um, and it doesn't like I I think it's kind of short shortsighted to think that um that'll work in the long term.
Cuz if you look at the the whole reason like gravel kind of took off was as a counter to that road culture that was already that. Um, and you can sort of see this like history repeating itself and you know just like the way people speak about it and that this kind of resentment around it. You can sort of see it happening again.
Um, but it doesn't need to you know um and I think >> and e even like the the role of like um the the top writers, right? like the the pursuit shouldn't just singularly be performance I think in that space. Um but it it has become that.
So um I'm not sure like what the the answer to it is. Um >> like are I wonder are you the answer? Like there's a famous Irish author and he has a a quote.
It's whenever you're on the side of the majority it's time to pause and reflect. And you seem to be I'm not sure how much is by design or how much is you're one of the last kind of romantic cyclists and just following your heart, but it seems like you stepped out of world tour just before it went bananas. You gravel now you're starting to step out a little bit and explore, you know, Transcortiier, for example, other events like this.
How much of that is the liberal engineering from you trying to find the next cool thing for you way before it's cool? >> I mean, it's basically just trying to follow like true motivations, right? And that can be like a tricky thing.
Um, but kind of sometimes stepping back and like looking around and being like, ah, okay, I'm not actually enjoying this. Um, I'm pursuing this for the wrong reason. what's something that I could do that uh would be like exciting for me uh and motivating for me and it's going to get me out stoked on my bike every day.
Um and that's kind of the way I choose events uh and pursue different goals. Um, and it definitely waines. Like, you know, there's sometimes I'm super stoked to go and, you know, like I trained for for Leadville this year and for that month it was like great, the motivation's good.
I want to go there and try and perform fast. Um, but at the same time it's like, you know, doing the ride around Australia last year and then I also did like a bike packing trip with some mates in um December, right? And both two completely different pursuits.
But I had this realization of like ah this experience that I've had five days with some mates like out in the hills here just doing 100ks a day you know and then stopping and having a beer at night. But I was like, this is the actual experience that people I think would enjoy riding, you know. Um, and like that's something that I definitely there was a conscious like light in my head of like ah this needs to be part of what I do in terms of like promoting the sport.
Um because you can always go like bigger and longer or faster or um but ultimately it's like what are we trying to get out of bikes and it's like we want people to get out there you know be healthy but just enjoy it for what it is and have the space to enjoy it the way you want to. Um >> bike packing with mates ticks so many of the boxes as to cycling is fun. It's like exploring new territories, having a laugh, having sore legs at the end of the day, being able to enjoy a beer, >> new communities, cultures.
It's so much fun. Like, >> and and I've really enjoyed like you get a a a group of friends that I'll have friends from all over. You bring them all together.
So maybe like half the people know each other and you have very very varied levels, you know, of ability and then trying to mesh together as a group of being like, "All right, this is going to be, you know, for this bloke, it's going to be his hardest day out ever." Um, but how am I how am I going to, you know, manage him through it and we're all still going to have a good time. And then, you know, the stories you have out of those are just like it's the best.
>> Uh, we've done one last year. Uh we do every year we do this we call shami time tour because Sean Kelly obviously a famous Irish cyclist and this idea that you get faster by just being in your shami. It doesn't matter how many training hours you have as long as you're in the shami.
So we call it the shami time tour because you're literally you know you're in your shami for breakfast and you're still in your shami at 11 p.m. drinking beers.
>> So we do [snorts] shami time tour. So we're on our like I think it's our fifth year coming up. We done Bosnia and Albania last year.
>> But we one bit where we were cycling we're coming into Albania. So, I don't even know what town in Albania and we literally just booked the Airbnb. You know, you're like 20k out.
It's like, "Okay, it's your turn to book the Airbnb tonight." So, we we meet the dude who's bringing us to the Airbnb and we're going real slow. We're walking behind them.
So, one of my three of us, the first lad's walking, we're just riding behind him real slow. I'm walking behind, but he's coming to a decision point. Like, I'm not sure if the dude is walking left or if he's walking right.
So, I just do a small little track stand for a second just to delay just so I can see if it's going left or right. My buddy behind him not looking. So he goes to ride into the back of me, but instead of riding into the back of me, he topples over a small wall.
But it's one of those car parks, you know, the underground ones that dip off. He fell like 8 foot off our car park. >> If this was Ireland, US, UK, like the property owner here would be like, >> concerned, liable, concerned.
The Albanian dude broke his whole laughing. Funniest thing he'd ever seen. different cultures.
>> Yeah. Yeah. I uh I've stayed in an Airbnb in Albania as well and remember it being like that same thing of like where are we staying?
Following someone random up a weird staircase in Albania. >> Have you been to Bosnia? >> No, I have.
>> Pick that one on your list. Bosnia is like >> Albania's Albania is pretty rough. Like as in it's not it's not Morca, but when you go to Bosnia >> and like they're just out of war.
Like there's bullet holes in the shops and stuff and >> dude pumping gas and he's got like two fingers and you're like whoa this place is there's some real trauma still going on here. >> Yeah. But there was cool riding there.
>> Beautiful riding. Very few cars on the road. Beautiful ride and >> like super cheap to say as well if you're going bike packing.
>> Yeah. Yeah. We went from there and then I think it was uh Macedonia, Greece and then uh Bulgaria.
Bulgaria was mind-blowing in terms of >> never writing. Yeah, it was very cool. >> But we went in December which was a mistake.
>> Yeah. But you know when you're doing these events like uh when you started out with your brother and you're doing your thereabouts number one riding I think it was back to Port McGee for the first one like how do you think about the idea of just going riding with your mates versus going riding with your mates and bringing a film crew? Does it change the experience or how do you wrestle with >> uh it it depends a lot on who's shooting it um and what you're shooting it for.
I think uh because yes it does ultimately yes it it impacts the um the trip uh and I'm currently trying to work out a way uh of shooting it amongst yourselves um and having something a bit more raw and I guess like authentic to it. Um the way I've approached it is I I've never I'll never like adjust for shooting. Um, so it's on the on the crew to get whatever they're going to get.
Like I'm not going to be like, "Oh, we're going to rewride something or like, you know, change the ride around that corner again." >> Yeah. [snorts] Exactly.
Um because that's when I think there's like a a line crossed of like, okay, we're going out to do a ride and we're going to film it or we're going for a ride so we can film it and make something, you know? Um, I had this moment actually I had this moment in Badlands. Uh, and I actually did redo the section.
So, I came around the corner and we had a videographer there with us and we haven't released it yet, but we have a videographer there and he's gone ahead on the moped and he set up for this shot and as I'm coming past him like I don't ride past. I stop and I'm like my hammerhead's about to die. We going left or right up here and he's like, "Are you kidding me?
I've been two hours waiting to set up this shot. You riding past?" Uh, >> so I was like, "Oh [ __ ] I feel bad.
" I was like, "Here, I'll double back like 60 seconds and I'll do it again." >> Uh, yeah. And I mean, it's one thing like doing doing a trip um where there's no like pressure on time or speed.
Um, I think like the the capacity for shooting is like a lot bigger. Um, but doing like some of the FKT things and that I've done, you know, like when we were shooting Colorado Trail, um, >> that was brilliant. >> My brother was shooting that and the thing about that like in three and a half days and I probably only saw them maybe four or five times.
Um, and cuz just cuz it's really hard to get into the trail. Um, >> and so the pressure on them to get those shots was pretty massive. you know, they might be camped out there for like, you know, a day knowing they're going to get this one spot.
Um, and but in those uh those scenarios, I'm like I'm I'm very strict with what I'm doing, you know, in terms of like I'm the responsibility of shooting is completely on whoever's whoever's shooting it. You like you're not going to get anything more than me than just the ride here. Um, and that's very important um, to me and I think it's something that like I definitely want to continue to strive for that like the ride for the ride's sake and then >> you capture it.
Um, and that's what you get, you know, and it does mean you leave a lot out there for sure in terms of like whatever shots and sometimes story, whatever. But, um, for me that's just the way it sort of has to go. >> And it's nice to have that framework as well because I think that framework, it does improve the enjoyment of the ride because everyone knows what the expectation is of it.
I'm I'm wondering like how do you think about the framework of cuz when I chat to you, you get a sense that you just love the bike. You love riding the bike and if you had a day off, you probably just go and ride your bike. >> Yes.
>> How do you get like maybe I'm asking this as a selfish question because I'm similar to you. I I just love to ride the bike whether it's a mountain bike, gravel bike, road bike, whatever. If a day off, I'm riding the bike on my own with friends, it doesn't matter.
But then I struggle when I plug back into the performance end to switch on the 140 grams of carbs an hour or the arrow. How do you think about like compartmentalizing? Okay, I need to switch on for unbound.
I know I'm going to have to wear a speed suit. I know I'm going to have to wear pox goofy arrow helmet because these are just necessary evils for the outcome I'm looking for. Do you have a framework for dealing with that?
>> Yeah. Um, so I I work with a coach, uh, Dennis Van Wendon. Um, and we've sort of, uh, I'd say it's the first coaching relationship I've had where I've struck that balance where he understands that like 80% of the time I'm just going to be out there riding and I don't want structure.
I don't want to like um, do the intervals and and that kind of thing. Um, but he'll if if I'm if I have a goal um that's performance-based, he'll give me like sessions when it's like and if he gives me a session, I know I'm like, "Okay, this is for a purpose. Um, I need to do X, Y, and Z in this session.
" And they're generally um like infrequent enough that I actually enjoy the switch up, you know? I'm like, "Okay, cool. Today I'm going out and um I have a session to do.
Um that being said, I don't use uh like I don't use power or heart rate or anything. Um I do it all based on like uh feel. I guess >> the sun lines up with the moon and the stars.
You push a little bit harder in the quadrant. I mean, it's interesting in that like um like I've done it with power and without and the outcomes are similar except the only difference is the the enjoyment factor. >> Do you tape it up or you don't use it?
>> No, I just don't use it. Don't have it on the bike. Um and I just find that I'm actually I can do the sessions more effectively.
Um and I I understand that now. just my own like I get an an emotional response to a number being displayed back to me and it's like if I'm trying to do something instead of doing it I'm like in this weird feedback loop that can become like negative very quickly. um as opposed to just like okay I know I've got a 20 minute threshold effort I know what that feels like let's just get on with it and do it and you know remove the the ego out of it really is what it is you know um because all >> and I think there's a lot of science like I get to chat with some really good physiologists on the podcast some of the best physiologists and coaches in the world and there is something to that because we use these numbers as a proxy for how we feel for measuring effort but if you can strip all that away and get back to actually how you feel.
Like if you look at time where I'm not sure if you following that that's the respiration zone setting the Visma Lisa bike are using. >> Oh, got [snorts] you. Like the breathing rate.
>> Yeah. So that's given dynamic zones and so that's kind of you know the way you go out to do an interval someday. Say it's I don't know if your threshold is 380 or whatever and you're going out to do your interval at 380.
It feels harder some days than others because it is harder some days than others because whatever cortisol is ramped you didn't sleep well. Yeah. A million different things.
Yes. >> When you train like you do, it needs a crazy level of understanding and maturity to get there. It's like you've graduated to Yoda where you're like, >> "Yeah, it's interesting because Yeah, I think um it's definitely something that uh like I was riding.
I did a group ride. I nor if I'm at home on a Saturday morning, I'll go and like do the fast group ride down near Sacramento because um one it's like for me it's fun but you get like free training you know so I'm like sweet I can go out on that hammer around not even really realize I've done it and that's most of my intensity for the week. But >> I was riding next to a young guy and we were chatting about like this and he was talking about his numbers and whatever and then I just sort of guessed.
So I was like, "Are we doing like we're riding up a hill." I was like, "I guess we're doing like 260." And he was like, "Yeah, we are.
" It's like weird that you I was like, "Oh, nice." I haven't kind of reached that stage. But the way I break it down, it's like I still have like an interest in um the physiology of it.
Um you know, you don't train without like some sort of interest in that. Um, but I just sort of break it down into like, you know, you're the fundamentals of of of training are like you're trying to elicit a response from your body, right? So like you're either producing lactate or you're clearing lactate and you're doing that at like different levels essentially.
Um, and once you understand like those feelings of like, okay, I'm doing a V2 effort. I'm producing lactate really quickly. This is what the feeling is.
it's supposed to feel like [ __ ] This is normal. Um or like a threshold effort. You're like, "Yeah, okay.
I'm producing lactate, but I can sort of sit here and I understand that feeling." And then you once you understand those zones, like it it's pretty easy to to do training um effectively without the the number. I think where it becomes difficult is probably on my coach's end because he's kind of like doesn't actually know what what's going on.
Uh, but I'll just use old school like a time up a climb, you know, cuz I, >> you know, I'm genuinely proud of my little man cave, my [snorts] escape, my safe place. It's not glamorous by any means. It's crammed into the spare room in our apartment with bikes stacked in the corner, boxes everywhere, and the smell of chain lube is just kind of hanging in the air.
But in that corner, that's where the work gets done. That's where I switch off from everything else, and I lock in on my training. And the centerpiece of it all, it's the Wahoo Kicker Bike Pro.
Honestly, it's the ultimate man cave bike. The thing just feels alive under you. It climbs, it descends, it shifts, all automatically.
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And look, I'm Irish. I'm sitting in Ireland recording this right now. I know what it's like to wake up, look out the window, see wind, rain, and sideways hail and think, do I really want to be out there today?
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I almost feel like every interval is full gas for the duration. Like if I say to you, hey, do four by five minute efforts too. >> You basically can't go any more in those efforts.
>> I mean, you have capacity, you know. Um, and on on any given day, that capacity is different and you can only read into it so much, you know. Um, so yeah, I mean that that's the way I go about it in a way that I know I can still perform when I want to.
Um, but do it in a way that I feel is sustainable. And that way if I have like a a hard session, I'm not like, "Oh [ __ ] I've got this session coming up that like, you know, I'm worried about and I got to go out and get it done." I'm like, "Okay, I'm still stoked to do that.
" And then tomorrow I'm just like on my gravel bike, five or six hours, might be walking, you know, maybe like I just take it as it comes. And there's like >> will he give you guidance on duration? Like will he say like you got to top it out at 25 28 hours this week?
>> Um only if it's like a top end like sometimes it' be like okay it's a free endurance ride but he's like don't go more than 8 hours like um so yeah there's some like guideline there but it's very loose. Um, and it's interesting that like it's taken um, I think we've worked together probably 3 years now. Um, and initially I hadn't had a coach for 3 years before that and starting again I was like okay I want to go and do well.
Um, I think it was I was going to Cape Epic with uh, Keegan. So I was like okay I need to lock in a bit here. And initially we went like very hardcore, a lot of structure, um very like dialed in I guess like modern training program.
Uh and we very quickly realized that like that wasn't one it wasn't sustainable and two it wasn't like effective for me. Um, so it's like a process of like working out, okay, how much what's like the minimum amount of structure we need to do that will get you where you need to be. Um, and for me that it's generally more effective the less the less structure I have in there.
>> How did you and Keegan get on at Cape Epic? >> Great. Yeah.
Yeah. We're still good mates. Yeah.
Yeah. Um, yeah. I was actually just chatting to him after Worlds last week.
>> Unbelievable writer. >> Unreal. Yeah.
No, I'm a I'm a huge fan of uh of Keegan. I like the way he races. I like his approach.
I also like the way he's kind of um you know I think the way he has continue to pursue the same events in the same way um has kind of legitimized that that space you know um because I think the the temptation was like oh he should go and do the road now like that's where you go um whereas he's like no I'm happy doing what I'm doing I'm going to get really good at this Now it's like he is really really good at it. >> It's nice to see him breaking out though and getting that validation outside the US cuz you know outside the US people don't perceive the US the same way. Yeah.
>> Euro is the center of the cycling world. >> Yeah. Yeah.
No, it was sick win. >> So in terms of you getting ready for events, I know you're not a huge indoor cycling fan. You're more about the outside exploration, but I know you do strategically use indoor for getting ready for events.
What's your setup like at home and what's your kind of your go-to sessions when you're riding indoors? >> Uh, so I use the the Kicker Roller, uh, which is like the the Wahoo trainer that you don't have to take the wheel off. Um, which I find is really useful because I ride a lot of different bikes.
Um, and I don't want to have to mess around like taking wheels off and doing that. So, I use that. Uh my setup in the garage is very um I guess rudimentary.
I don't have any screens. I don't have any um you know speakers or anything. Um >> we do text off the paint con.
>> Yeah, we we're doing house renovations at the moment. So there's a lot of like wood and paint and stuff that but I have like a little corner in the back. Um and yeah, I'll use it uh here in the winter.
Um I'll be on there a few times a week. um if I got to do some sessions and it's raining. Uh or otherwise in the in the other parts of the year, occasionally I'll do like a a heat session on there.
Um so just to like sweat a bit. Um it's kind of effective for that. And occasionally I'll do like a a Zift race.
Uh I'm not very good with structure on the trainer, but if I get on there and then just like pull up Zift and have a little bang. Um, >> I've actually never used the kicker roller. Is it worth a purchase?
Does it feel like you're outside? >> Yeah, I I mean I I enjoy the feeling of it. And I think the biggest thing is that that convenience of like a lot of the time um I might just like finish a a session with the trainer or something.
So I might be out on the road and then I come home and then it's like, okay, I'm on here for half an hour or something and I can just throw the bike on. It's very easy. Um, and also like playing with like bike setup and that sort of thing.
Um, like adjusting, you know, a mountain bike position to a road position or that kind of thing. Setting up shoes, all that. You can just switch bikes in and out.
Um, which is what I I use it for. >> I love that. Winter's about to hit in Ireland, so I might experiment and [clears throat] try and see if I can find that indoor love because I've never quite got onto that Zift Bose that everyone's on.
>> Yeah. Yeah, I mean I'm I always prefer to be outside. Um but you know any any bike ride is better than no bike ride.
So >> uh we're chatting off air and I'm just back from Badlance and yeah like massively under appreciated how difficult that was going to be. I'm so broken. >> Yeah, that's a tough one, mate.
>> I see my buddy at the start line and he'd ridden it a couple years ago. who's a old teammate of mine in France and he was just like looking at my setup and my prep and he's like, "Bro, you're going to die." He's like, "You are going to die in the desert.
" >> I was like, "I have no food or anything with me." I was like, "Oh, I had a servo station out the road." >> Yeah.
Sure. >> So, I've got nothing with me. I was like 15 hours deep eating eating my fingers nearly.
>> Yeah. There's not much out there. There's not much out there on that course.
And there's a lot of like a lot of really narrow time windows for resupply and that kind of thing. um in some of those towns, you know. >> Yeah.
Like you get to one of these towns and you're like, I'm all in. I need to eat in this town or else I'm I'm in a I put myself a bad spot here. Like I'm four hours with no water or food.
You get to the town and like there's one town we got to in particular, Ilar. And we made the shop by, I'd say, 30 seconds before siesta and then it closes for like 4 hours or something for siesta. You >> be like, "God, if I was 5 minutes later, I'd be done.
>> I was dead. >> I would have to wait here. Just kidding.
There's no getting out of there. Like one of the dudes ripped his sidewall and I heard he was walking in the desert for like 9 hours trying to get phone signal. >> That's It is crazy.
I remember uh I raced that I think it was the first year and I convinced a mate of mine um from Jerono Kiwi guy uh to come and and do it with me and uh Hayden McCormack and he'd never done and and at that point I'd done a couple of ultras and um I remember he finished he actually came second but he had all these stories of just like survival basically and I remember he looked at me and he was just like someone's going to die out there >> 100%. Cuz also you rode it in what? Like you were like 40 hours or something like that.
>> Yeah. I can't remember. It was uh two nights.
Um >> I was out there for 5 days. >> Yeah. And it it and I mean it's so interesting those uh experiences because like um your life very quickly gets simplified down to like okay I need to get food at this next town and then I need to like uh find somewhere to sleep and it's like you very quickly are just like reduced to the basic human needs and >> the only goal is progress which >> um I love that like being in that state.
Um >> cuz I went out and I was on the plane and we had the videographer coming with us and I was kind of sketching out this romantic script of what I might find out like you know the bike mean different things to me at different times in my life. I'm going into the desert to find out and answer that question why I ride. Very soon it became like just get to the next 10 kilometers.
Get to the next shadow so you can get a bit of shelter from the sun. Get to the next water stop. was like you don't process anything beyond your next definite need to survive.
>> Exactly. And and that's like um yeah, it's not necessarily like romantic and a lot of it is like just discomfort and um you know, you're not like having fun, but uh that that is in essence like ultracling. You know, I think like if you're if you're out there trying to to find meaning or process things, like yes, that can happen.
Um, but that's probably more likely to happen if you just threw some bags on the bike and you're like, I'm going to go ride for a month somewhere and just see what happens. But in terms of like the intensity of getting on the set route and trying to get round it, um, >> I think the the reality of it is more you're just kind of stripped back. Um, and the you you you're kind of like forced to just deal with things as they come.
And in my experience, like that can be um like frustrating. Uh can also be rewarding, but like in the end, I find it like empowering. You're like, "Okay, I can like put myself out there and I'll work it out.
" [clears throat] >> It's also such a different type of fatigue. Like I was texting guys who were on the VA and it's kind of [ __ ] to be texting them talking about how fatigued I am cuz as they're heading into the third week in the VA but you're like I can't explain to you how fatigued I am. It's it's a different level.
Like it feels like it's hitting me on a cellular level or something like it's fatiguing my ancestors. This is getting so >> Yeah. Yeah.
>> So different than a stage race fatigue. >> Yeah. It's like the muscles ache all the way down to the bone or something.
>> Yeah. I was taking my shoes off on the sense like putting my feet on the outside of the shoes going on the sense >> like all those weird little things come up. Um yeah, and it's funny how quickly you forget that.
Uh like you know I did the Australia ride about a year ago. Um and hadn't really thought about it a whole bunch since. But then now you get like, you know, on Straa it pops up like a ride you did a year ago and I'll look at it and I'm just like, "Oh man, yeah, I remember that day.
" Like, "How the hell did I get through that one?" Um, but yeah, it it it's it's a different like people always want that comparison of like, "Oh, what's harder, a Grand Tour or like an Ultra?" And you're like, "They're two completely different things.
" >> Yeah. It's like what sor kicking the bollocks or a black eye? It's like >> Exactly.
Exactly. >> What's If you look at all these events you've done, what's the one you'd recommend people definitely give that a bash and the one you'd be like, "Don't do that. That was that was >> um I think the the route that sticks in my head as like one of the best put together was probably the GBJ Duro route.
Um I think like the the way that route is like so well thought out. Um, and when you're when you're riding it, you're like feels like if I were to take you on a ride in my backyard here once you know it, you know, the whole way. Uh, >> and it's almost a shame, I would say, to race it.
I would love to go back and tour that route. Um because like it's it's so beautiful and uh I think that that to race it there's sections that you should just be enjoying that are actually just end up being frustrating cuz you're trying to like you know press on. Um >> but that's a great route.
Um I think the Colorado Trail is probably my favorite route of all. It's really challenging. Um it's not something to like be taken lightly.
Um but it's a it's a really great test of um like bike packing ability. I think you got to put a lot of different things together. Uh but it's hugely hugely rewarding.
um like you have this you spend so much time above tree line um in a whole bunch of places that you know normally you struggle to get access with with a bike. Um so that that's one I would say chuck on the list but but get ready for it. >> Since getting back into training, the biggest thing that's hit me isn't fitness, it's fueling.
I used to finish rides totally wrecked. I'd come through the door, collapse on the couch, scroll through Instagram, and call it recovery. But now that I'm actually fueling properly, and that's anywhere from 80 to 120 gram of carbs an hour, depending on the session, it's a completely different story.
I'm coming home from training feeling fresh, and my power data throughout the ride supports this. I can actually function when I get off the bike. It's honestly blown me away how big a difference that proper fueling makes.
When I started fueling right, I realized just how good I could actually feel on the bike. a daily staple in my training now. It's for endurance because I know exactly what I'm putting into my body.
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com and start fueling smarter. I'm going to put the link in the description down below. Yeah, it's definitely looks epic.
One that's on, you know, mutual friend, uh, Mikuel, uh, runs migration gravel race. That's definitely one that's on my list for next year. It just looks I just love the project out there, Miguel to do it.
Obviously, it just looks like a cool race as well. >> Yeah, it's that's a really cool one. Um they do a great job with it and it's it's such a a cool um duality of like you go out there and you race hard, you know, like you're there to race.
Um, but you look around, you're just like in the Masamara, >> you know, with like giraffes running around uh on these like roads and trails that you would just never ride otherwise, you know? You wouldn't even know where to go. Um, >> and like how are you not getting lost?
Like what are you doing with your navigation that I'm not doing with my navigation? Because when I'm going on these trips, I'm like, "Oh [ __ ] I've gone the wrong way and I'm turning around." >> Yeah.
Yeah, you got to get it the the GPX loaded and then like my trick is to always have the the map on the same like zoom so you understand like distance if that makes sense. So you're like okay for me it's like I have it on 200 m so >> so one pixel is you know 200 m or whatever. get like an idea and then um get the the beeps on so that like the second you go wrong it just like yells at you like how you've gone the wrong way.
>> Yes. I've seen some dudes in Badlands that went like 15 20k the wrong direction and 15 20k is no joke in Badlands like that's that's hardship on yourself. >> Yes, 100%.
Actually, the time before or two years ago when I did um migration, I made a mistake and and downloaded like the wrong GPX file um and was out front and we just had this horrible mud section and then uh the GPX stopped like halfway through the stage and I thought I thought I remembered the way from like two years before when I'd done it and obviously didn't and rode like 10ks the wrong direction almost to Tanzania. Uh and they actually came in the there's a helicopter they used to like clear the the route of um of animals and they they flew the helicopter and were just like pointing out like go back go back. >> You're about to get killed by a rhino.
>> Had to flip it and ride back. Um so >> helicopter back into town. >> Exactly.
Definitely happens. I do still get lost. Uh but I mean for me to be honest like this the bit of technology like there's a lot of technology that exists in in cycling now that um it probably serves a purpose somewhere but for me doesn't add anything to the ride.
I think the one biggest change that's happened you know in probably the last like 5 years is the quality of like the GPS computers and the ability to find routes no matter where you are. Like you can show up anywhere and you're like, damn, this is where everyone rides. Oh, there's a trail network here.
>> I was chatting to some kids on my group ride and they're like 17, 18. One of them didn't know who Oasis was, which is just like blew my mind. He's that young.
I was going to the Oasis concert. He's like, who's Oasis? I'm like, what?
Like, >> how? But he was born. You're like, okay, that makes sense.
>> Oh, yeah. I know. I was talking about when I raced in France.
I was there in 2012 and there was Garmin's back then. Wahoo didn't exist. Hammerhead didn't exist.
Garmin did exist, but don't think there was any mapping on it. If there was, I definitely didn't have it. >> I used to go train with a map, like an actual map.
And I was explaining this to him and he was looking at me like I was Christopher Columbus. Like I was talking about the Victorian era. >> Yeah.
It's I found my old one of my old iPods, one of the first like iPod touches in a uh one of the old boxes we had from Emil Moving and I fired it up and in the notes like there was an old notes section and I was like what is this? And it was like all these French because we lived uh in a team house just outside of Tuloo. And so I used to go on to like Google Maps on my laptop and then just write down like D23 and then like turn right onto this and I would have this whole massive like um I guess one step up from maps but uh we used to get lost like all the time >> and you could legitimately get lost like 10k from home.
Like I went on a cafe ride in France and it was like meant to be 90 minutes or something. It ended up being like 8 and 1 half hours. was pitch black, dark, pissing rain, couldn't find my way home.
It was like total shocker. >> I normally like I'd like to think I'm very good with direction. Um, but there's something about that like rolling hill area in the south of France there where I I could just get turned around so quickly and like everything looks the same and I would just get wicked lost.
So, uh, wrapping up and thinking about this year 2025, 2026 season, like what's what's tickling your fancy? Will you go back onto the road at all or have you put a full stop after the end of the road aspirations? >> Uh, I don't think I'll go back on the road.
Um, I mean, unless there was something that really like captured my imagination. Um, >> cuz you're still pretty young. Like, what age is you?
I'm 33 now. Um, >> you're not young in the new You're not young in the new Grand Tour by 20, but you know, you're still >> like, well, Valverde finished at 42 or something. >> Yeah.
Yeah. Actually, I raced Valver last year at um EWR and I was just like, damn, this guy's still got it. Um, yeah.
I mean, I think uh I don't have like concrete plans for next year yet in terms of what I want to race. Um, but I think uh yeah, I'll I'll slowly knock that out. Um, I'm trying I try not to like commit to anything super early.
Um, just in case like the the motivations change and whatever. Um, but I definitely this year I did a lot of uh new to me races. Um, was a lot of travel and and sort of exploring different things.
I think I'm enjoying um like smaller races um races that are I guess more more grassroots, but at the same time there's still a few like bigger goals that um I'd like to chase. Um >> it's kind of cool that you're shining the light on some of the like Transcortiier Springs like shine a light on a cool race like that. >> Yeah.
and and there's so many out there now um that it seems like uh not a waste but like I I don't feel the need to go back and do a lot of events twice unless I'm really really love it. Um so yeah, I I've got like a I keep like a list in my phone um cuz a lot of the time you'll go to these events and then someone will be like, "Oh, have you heard about this?" And so you sort of like add it add it to like a increasingly growing list of things I want to go do.
Um at the same time I want to like uh have a bit less travel I think. Um because one of the things I enjoy the most is like is riding from home. Um and you know having my time here to explore like the the foothills here and um really I get a lot out of that.
You know, I think like if I was to tell you like my my top five days, you know, on the bike this year, um most of them would probably be just something I've done from home here. So, um that's definitely like >> a priority. And then >> I have a few ideas for like um some bigger projects um that So, this year I didn't really do any crazy ultra feet.
Um the Australia troop last year definitely took like took some energy out of me and took the motivation for that out a little bit. >> Bleak. >> Yeah, it was hard.
Uh and I think the other thing that um people maybe don't realize is that you go and do one of those uh events and then the process to get ready for like you know one day 6hour gravel races again is like it's a it's a lot of work. >> Can't be as difficult as the process when you rode Badlands to go and ride the Jurro 2 3 weeks later. That's a wild like I was thinking about that flying home like I flew home yesterday and both my hands and feet are numb and I was like that lunatic one Badlands and then had three weeks to get ready for.
How do you think about recovering and training at the same time? It's like two >> I I at that point I don't even think I knew I was doing the duo and then we were having like a camp in >> Jirona with a few of the riders that were sort of on the bubble I think and then I got selected for it. Uh I was like, "Oh, that's cool.
" And the more I thought about it, I was like, "This is like and and I also don't think anyone I mean, if you show up to the the Jurro, you can't be like, "Oh, I'm tired from badly." Like, there's a job to be done. Um it's funny cuz I've never really thought about those two and how close they were.
But um I mean, the the funny thing about balancing those things is like, uh there's no real blueprint for it. um in terms of like there's not a lot of people who do it so >> for a reason. >> Yeah.
For a reason. So um it's funny that sometimes it'll work out really well like after I did GB Duro I think I I won a stage at Utah like a month later. Um and like it just worked really well.
Uh whereas sometimes I've done an ultra and then I'm just in a hole. Um, so there's so many facets to it that that also makes it interesting. Um, but yeah, I think like a lot of those uh like projects I have in my head I know will require so much of you that you really need to have the energy and stoke for it.
Um, so I'm glad to have like kind of taken a year from it and had time to think about some different cool roots and things I could go do and hope >> will they all be Cyclone projects or because I know you've kind of stepped into entrepreneurial land as well with we call it >> creator products. I don't know what the the cool kids call it like pretty great coffee. >> Yeah.
Yeah, I've got coffee going. Um, that's kind of what we we Yeah. Not yet, mate.
Um, we're actually having issues with our freeze dryer at the moment, which is annoying. Uh, but I mean, I think the thing I've learned is that like all the um all the opportunities and and things that I've enjoyed the most, you know, in my life have come out of focusing on on writing and those like elements. So, that's always the core of like all my dayto-day.
Um, so I also realized that like there's there's a limited time um on like being able to pour all my energy into bikes. Um, you know, like as you get older, you know, you do age out of these things. So, I'm trying to >> to make the most of it, you know, while I can.
Um, >> do you think it's a biological age or it's more like a fatigue from just years of doing it, like a training age? Uh, I think that there's there's both of those things, you know. Um, there's definitely things I noticed like uh rec that require more work than when you were younger, you know.
Um, and like the the racing is is one of those things. There's some things that come easier, some things that come harder. Um but yeah, in terms of just like I find it interesting just following my own motivations, they they tend to switch more from um competitive stuff to to things outside of that.
Um so to be honest, like the thing I'm I'm doing a bike packing trip uh in Australia in January around like I've put a route together from Port McQuary. It's like going to take us a week. Uh, and I've got like 10 different mates from all over the world who are all to come and do it.
And like that's the thing now I'm I'm most stoked about. So, um, like I just find that those kind of things interesting. Um, in terms of maybe that's an age thing, maybe it's just because I've I've done a lot of other things and this is this something sort of new.
Um but yeah, that I think probably as it get older um more energy will go into into those things. >> Yeah, I remember chatting with uh Jeremiah Bishop, the mountain biker, and he was talking about just like like you were saying, not going back to the same event because then you have that comparison of like, oh, it's not as good as it was last time. I'm not as fast as I was last time.
Just keeping it like he's in his I guess late 40s, maybe early 50s, and he's still riding the bike pretty much full time. And I was like, how'd you do it? and he's like just adding new [ __ ] all the time like if new roots, new training partners, new events, never going back to that comparison mindset.
>> And that's really helped me a lot like >> Yeah. I and I think um that sort of I guess like cur keeping the curiosity in it uh in in writing and like the different experiences you can have um is important, you know. Um in the same way that you know if I go and do a road event you know um now it's like I remember like oh wow I was like in this very thin slither of what cycling is and I did this for so long uh while all of this stuff existed you know in a par like it's funny now if I go to Jirona where you know when I was there I was a road cyclist primarily um whereas you go there now and you have like the mountain bike trails and the gravel roads and that that like literally exist like in a parallel kind of world.
Um >> whole other community ecosystem all inside Chirona. You walk past those dudes on the street, you don't even know they're the mountain bike guys. >> Yeah, exactly.
Um which uh you know I think that's that's cool and exciting and being able to try and explore as many different you know facets of cycling as possible. Um, that's kind of the the goal, you know. >> I have to get you to Ireland, try to wild Atlantic Way.
Like >> I've heard about this. >> Yeah. I've never actually ridden it like unbroken.
It's like the problem is Ireland is the nicest place in the world genuinely to ride on a sunny day. >> You just need a sunny day. >> You don't get that many sunny days.
Like you're bringing the rain cape in the middle of summer just in case. >> Yeah. Right.
And is it just like death by a thousand hills? Like the way I >> imag big big big climbs like longest climb you might get be I don't know the exact route but the longest line be like 20 minutes 30 minutes max and we don't have that many mountain ranges. Uh >> but yeah a lot of little rollers lot of exposed terrain.
You know it's obviously we're a little rock in the middle of the Atlantic so you get a lot of wind. >> Yeah. really cool place though to bike parking because it's not like Badlands.
You're coming along cool little towns and little pubs and >> all the time like it's a really fun place. We actually went two years ago. We couldn't get our annual bike or shami time tour.
We couldn't get it a foreign one. It didn't line up with the lads getting time off work. So, we're like, "Oh, we'll just do a big send a domestic one.
" We actually had as much funding down the domestic one as any of the foreign ones. It was like, >> "Yeah, I'll bet >> creamy point of Guinness each evening." Nice.
Exactly. Very hard to beat. [gasps] >> Llin, I appreciate your time.
>> Yeah. Cheers. Thanks for having me.
We'll >> catch up again.