Gravel cycling is changing. Teams are coming to gravel cycling. Today I sit down with the European and tracker champion Mads Wart Schmidt who's recently signed for Specialized Racing Team next year in gravel.
Gravel world has totally totally changed. It will never be the same again. And to break this news and take me inside what that looks like, it's the European champ Mad Schmidt.
Mad Swartith, we're here in the Colosseum Cycl. The gravel king, welcome. >> Thank you.
I wouldn't call myself the gravel king. >> I can call you the gravel king. >> I think there are >> like Cam Jones been pretty uh good this year.
Um BL is my teammate. He's also won a lot. Like I think there are a few guys worth mentioning.
>> Can only be one king though. >> Can only be one king. Yeah.
Yeah. I'd say the king is the one who wins Unbound. >> You think it's that big?
Yeah. >> Yeah, it is. It is.
Now, I've been inside it for this year and and I just see how much Unbound really matters, which is sometimes I think it's a shame because it's not the most exciting race, isn't it? Is it? >> It It's not the more exciting race to watch, but >> it's also not super exciting to race >> really.
No, it's just long and you go straight for uh 10 miles and then you turn right and you see on your garment next turn is in another 10 miles >> and then you come to Santaal and it's like >> single trail descents you're jumping [ __ ] your GR is putting the boots to you on this crazy GPX >> file. Yeah. Yeah.
I I haven't done much racing in the US, but what I see on social media and videos is that gravel racing over there is is very much like Unbound, like these like actual gravel roads, whereas in Europe, it's a lot more challenging. >> I feel like there's a bait and switch going on for European lads. I know there's a load of lads in my club are like, "Oh, no, I'm going to get into gravel.
Like, it looks amazing." because they're watching like Unbound and you know maybe these lads are carrying a few extra kg and they're watching these flat rolling prairies and meadows and then you get a gravel bike in Europe and you're you're mountain biking. >> Yeah.
Yeah. Especially here in in Jerona it's like it's almost like the terrain fights back at you. >> It is it is rough.
Like sometimes you would wish that you were on a full suspension mountain bike. >> Yeah. I'm building a Frankenstein bike for next year.
It's like it's going to be like a Jerona specific gravel bike. Parley are our bike uh partner. It's like a slacker geometry on it.
>> Sham's front fork, wide tires. I'm going to stick the new dropper post on it from Sham as well. It's like I'm going full Jona proof in this bike.
>> Yeah. Oh, you'll be you'd be ready. >> There's a weight penalty though for all that.
>> Well, I'm also carrying a weight penalty on my body. So >> Oh, you can just let the brakes loose and go. Yeah, I I raced a gravel race back home with uh Greg Callahan who's one of the, you know, top endura guys in the world and getting to the top of climb with him, watch him just drop that dropper post and just send it on the descent.
Yeah. I'm like, uh oh, I'm in trouble. Tried to follow.
I was like, "Oh, I feel well outside my comfort zone. Hopefully just he knows lines and stuff and I can just follow blindly here." >> He goes to jump this big thing, jumps it around.
I just pinned straight into the handlebars. It's like, okay, lesson learned. >> Yeah, that's uh that's one of the big important lessons of gravel is always be able to see where you're going.
>> Yeah. >> Otherwise, you will crash or you will flat. >> Yeah.
My kind of hot take on it is your we big announcements which we want to make in a moment, but my hot take on where that industry is going in flats is we've seen the tires going wider and wider. My thinking on the wider and wider is having seen the data. There's an arrow penalty to going wider.
It's not massive, but there's an arrow penalty. Some studies will show rolling resistance is actually better. Some showing it's a little bit worse.
The main thing I can see and from chatting to riders is if you're in the wheel at 40k an hour. You're hitting a pothole. You don't want a flat.
So, you're going with the wider tire to avoid less flats. I wonder with Shramm dropping the gravel fork, are more people going to run the fork and go back to narrower? >> What is the gravel fork?
It's like a >> suspension. >> Yeah. From four.
>> See, I've been having discussions with a friend of mine who's been saying suspension is coming into gravel. And I'm like, what do you think? >> It's not necessary.
>> Not necessary, but allows you to go back narrower on the tires now. >> Yeah. >> I know you always are narrow on tires.
>> I find the 45s to be the best tire. Are >> you just too lazy to change them back and forth? Um uh but yeah, I think it it's also about like gravel is this in between thing where I I I don't really see if a suspension fork becomes necessary, then I don't find it like then it shouldn't be in a gravel race like we we shouldn't have uh the sense that crazy that you actually need uh suspension.
>> I I do worry about that. I I feel like Santal races like this like you're at the very high end of the skill level. Like you got to think you're winning these races.
Most people are their goal is to get through like I'm coaching a bunch of dudes and their goal is to finish Santa like they don't have the fitness but they also don't have the skills that you have like where you're able to jump stuff your reaction speed like Formula 1 driver for swerving around you they're just like pinning stuff down the sense >> on that in that case yeah I 100% see it as a good thing like people can can go and and and have more like be more comfortable on on the stuff that we do in the races. Um, but Ford top guys, top racing, I hope it's not going to be a thing. >> Is the worry that if if it does get normalized, the courses just get harder and harder.
>> Yeah. >> And it plays more and more to the mountain bikers. >> Uh, that I'm I'm not so concerned about.
I just think it should stay should stay doable on a normal looking gravel bike. Yeah, it should stay as gravel, I think, is what we're saying. >> Yeah, >> we already have mountain bike.
Like, and that's kind of like my my Frankenstein bill. Like, all my friends are like, >> "You already have a mountain bike." >> Like, when do you choose the normal gravel bike setup, the mountain bike setup, or the in between set?
Like, there's a lot of nuance here. It's kind of like getting like a bag of golf clubs. So, I play a six iron or seven iron.
cuz I I met Nathan House one day uh in town and and I was uh uh trash talking him a little bit cuz I saw he he had a suspension fork really >> on his gravel bike. I was like, >> "What are you doing?" And he's like, "Yeah, but you can just have so much more fun.
" Which I get like you you will be more comfortable. You will be more in control on downhills and then you can push it a little bit more and you can have fun. and his skill level is insane because he comes from mountain bike.
>> Um, so I do get the points of it, but I it's also like I'm a racer. Um, and I'm looking for speed and if you if you have a suspension fork, it is heavier. >> Oh yeah, for sure.
>> Like there's also a weight aspect to it and um >> I think it's got to be course dependent though, isn't it? cuz like heavier but going to take less arrow penalty most likely going back narrower on the tires. >> The thing is like take a look at the the track at 200.
We have 1, two, three, four, five challenging downhills. >> Yeah. >> Over 200 km.
I know it's in those downhills where you have the bigger risk of having a flat or a crash or some something is going to happen, but five downhills in 200 km. Is it really >> a lot of time to carry the extra weight? >> Exactly.
And you also have when you go down, you also go up. >> And they are pretty steep around here. >> I always wonder what leads the innovation.
>> Yeah. >> Like where does it come from? Is it demand from grassroots participants?
Is it the tip of the spear like you feeding back the brands or is it just lads cooking this up in a engineering factory in their own? >> Yeah, I've got no idea. Um because it's also like everything is so new in gravel.
So I'm a guy from the world tour and I would like to have data behind my choices. Um, how much faster is the W like in mountain bike tires? Uh, are they better in rolling resistance?
And this is stuff you can't really It's difficult to test it cuz you can't do it in a wind tunnel on a belt which is uh like gravel simulation. >> Yeah, >> you need to do it outside, but then there are so many variables um and wind change changes over time during the day. And can you hold the same power for these let's say 3 4 minutes that the test will be?
Can you do the exact same line? Like it's it's difficult to test all of this stuff. >> Can you even get the time for the testing?
Cuz the testing if you've ever done a testing it's tedious and boring and takes big chunk of time where you should be either training or recovering I guess if you're the top rider. >> Yeah. You know I've I've done a testing both in the wind tunnel and on the track.
Um, one year we did wind tunnel testing in uh around Venice in Italy in December and it was cold cold morning. So I was in there in the wind tunnel and it was the air that came. It was 2° >> and I sat there in my speeduit >> shivering.
>> Yeah. And they told me you need to go low cadence because that will give the more accurate so the legs doesn't spin that much and that will have an effect on on the numbers. So I was sitting there at 60 RPM freezing my ass off.
I could manage though cuz I had the TT helmet and I could, you know, crunch together. Then later they wanted to test the road helmets. So I had to be in upright position with a road helmet on.
>> Getting pinned with this cold air >> for like two times 4 minutes. >> Yeah. >> My lips were blue.
It was terrible. >> There's a new wind tunnel in Denmark. >> Yes.
>> Fusion. >> Yeah. >> You've been?
>> Nope. I haven't been. Um, but it's a really nice project and uh I think we've seen this year with Uno X using Fusion that they are really upping their game to to get in the world tour and really in cycle.
They are big in in triathlon I think but but I think uh they will do some R&D and >> they have it in house and yeah they're they're pushing the edge of innovation out there. >> Yeah. Yeah.
And I've only heard good stuff about the brand. So >> must be cool to see as a Danish rider like the like just you guys are leading the world on a lot of a lot of stuff at the moment. Obviously Yonas like one the two best bike riders in the world.
>> Yeah. >> He I don't say he gets a lot of hate. I don't think he gets a lot of hate.
I don't know if he gets the love he deserves. Like you know you've you've team Yonas and you've team Tad. There seems to be a lot more people on team Tad.
Well, for me, I just look at it as, you know, I'm not someone who's super flashy. I live a pretty humble lifestyle. I don't drive fancy cars.
It's like Tatty's meant to be a really nice lad of friends who are good friends with him. And but it's also, you know, living in Monaco, riding for UAE. Yonas has a lot of like qualities that your normal lad can just go, "Oh, he's just kind of like me, except he can just put down a lot more power than me.
" like he lives a >> I thinkable life. >> I think where people go wrong is that they compare the two of them. >> Like Tad, he's married or he's engaged to another pro cyclist.
They have their bubble in Monaco. Cycling is basically everything. Jonas is a family man.
You can't compare the two. >> Jonas, he lives in Denmark. He enjoys a quiet little life.
Like I'm I have a daughter as well now. And I get why Jonas he just want to pull the plug cuz maybe he doesn't race that much but he's still on training camps a lot of them and he still have a lot of training day or travel days. So whenever he gets the opportunity to pull the plug and be with his family I 100% get that and he makes it work.
like he's got two kids now um living in Denmark and he still managed to be one of the very best cyclist in the world. So just don't compare the two like you can't it's the same you see Venard he's also a family man. >> Yeah.
>> And his main rivals they are just cyclist they don't have that much else. So I think just don't compare the two because they're just different. Just in July, we got to compare them.
>> Yes. Yes. >> H the big news in the gravel world is teams.
>> Yeah. >> Teams are coming. >> Yeah.
>> Teams are here. >> Teams are here. Yeah.
>> Can we say? >> We can say. Yeah.
Yeah. >> Next year. Specialized team.
>> Yeah. >> You're going there. >> Yeah.
>> Some other big hitters. >> Yeah, I would say so. Um me uh specialized off-road uh team with on the men's side will be me, Matt Beers, and Keegan Swenson.
>> It's like the the US dream team from basketball back in the day, isn't it? >> From what? Sorry.
>> The US dream team back in the day. They put together like Jordan, all these like just hitters onto this team. >> H how did it come about or when did when the talks for this start happening?
We've heard whispers. Well, it's been whispers if anyone's in the industry for a long time. >> Gravel teams are coming and it's >> almost who's going to blink first.
>> Yeah, >> it seems like either I don't know who blink first was a Specialized or Canyon, but seemed the blinking maybe happened around the same time. >> Yeah, I had my first talk with Specialized. Um my manager, he quickly heard that they were like they wanted to start a like they already have the team Specialized Off-Road.
they've been been here this year and and and previously, but now they want to take a step up. Um, and we heard about this maybe it was before Tracka or shortly after. Um, I had my first conversation with with the guys from Specialized over at Unbound.
Um, and already there it was pretty like much in the in the sight that I was going to sign there. Um, so just some more talking and figuring out how to put everything together and then it was basically a done deal uh during the month of July. So like what's what's the pros and cons of this pro that I can see straight away?
Gravel has emerged as a new way of making it in cycling, a new genre, but now, as you say, you're a family man. You know, you're so well connected in the industry, you could be making cash many other ways than riding your bike. You now have stability to like you had in the world tour, a contract where a wage comes in at the end of the month, regardless of having conversations with partners or trying to do activations, you've like a flat wage.
I think that's just >> brilliant. Yeah, >> it's at a minimum if people are calling themselves a pro alete, you should have some consistency where you understand and some contractual rights and protections like every worker gets in every other industry. >> Yeah.
Yeah. >> That's like the obvious early win. Critics will say there is some the spirit of gravel has been eroded.
>> It is. It is slowly dying out. Um >> I think we could say it's dead.
Yeah, probably >> you're not stopping a >> fe still though. Like I think the riders in between they we we still get that we are there will always be I hope a little bit of the spirit of gravel. Like I did the ranch show uh by the end of the year and I crashed in the middle of nowhere and and one of the guys in in the group he stopped to check on me.
>> That's cool. >> Like you know we are out there in the middle of nowhere. I could have broken my collarbone or some bad [ __ ] had happened.
And then who's there to help me? So >> stop. What a leg.
>> Hans speaking >> like that. >> Yeah. So we were >> that's cool.
>> Me and Magnus my teammate and then Hans speaking and about Alaman I think that's how you say it. So two from pass and two from Megamo uh buff Mega Moore or something. And and he stopped to check on me.
Um, which is when I think about I at the time I didn't think about it but like that was >> it's a really nice moment. Sportsmanship. >> Yeah, exactly.
Because I didn't bring a phone like I had nothing there. So if I had seriously hurt myself, it was it was it was good sportsmanship, true gentleman to to stop and check on me and then I was fine. So he could roll on and I could >> get back in >> me >> or did he get back into the front?
>> Uh did the they they waited for him? >> Oh, they waited for him. >> But then they attacked him on the next climb and he was gone.
>> I'd have no problem waiting if I was like on the river and I was about to get dropped anyway. >> Yeah. Like >> Well, it was his teammate and also my teammate.
So they kind of My teammate also wanted to be sure like, okay, he they were like 50 m down the road. >> Yeah. So they stopped and looked back and when he rolled rolled off then obviously everything was fine.
>> So what what do you see the downsides or what are the what like there's a lot of criticisms of the idea of gravel like from you know I recorded a podcast with Nathan H which may be out before this or >> yeah it's probably out before this uh and he's just wasn't a fan of it. Steve Smith and Castelli like really not a fan of it. A lot of maybe the main argument I've seen from it is we've seen this experiment.
We tried to do this with mountain biking and it went real bad for everyone for participation for the industry. We brought the world tour model to off-road and it didn't work and we're trying it again now. >> But it works in mountain biking now.
>> Cross country not so much. No, >> like not in terms of data like in sales and participation rates. >> It wasn't a huge success when the when the theme trucks came in, the chefs came in and it just kind of killed participation rate and viewership figures.
>> Yeah. Well, yeah. Um I it's stuff that I don't know much about.
Um, I I think this is just the way professional sport develops and whether you like it or not, gravel is rapidly becoming a professional sport. Um, it's an industry, it's a big money industry. Uh, you see how many gravel bikes are out and about and just look at uh my country for example, Denmark.
Um, the gravel bike is perfect in Denmark because you have bad weather conditions most of the time. Um, and and it's cold, so you also kind of want to go in the woods a little bit. And you just get a whole new set of um roads to go like your your network of roads will be different.
You can explore much more. You can you can do all the exciting things um on a gravel bike and it's for everyone because it's a comfort comfortable bike to ride and it's you can go on the road, you can go on gravel, you can even go on some mountain bike trails. >> If you can only buy one bike >> and if you can only buy one bike then you buy a gravel bike.
>> I'm literally flat out saying this in our club WhatsApp groups like someone's getting their first bike or their one bike already and they're getting another bike. It's an exchange. Like if you're not a road racer, gravel bike is the absolute.
You can go mountain biking with your friends on some tame enough trails. >> Stick up a set of road wheels on it. You know, you're road training.
Change up gravel tires. You can go >> It's just so versatile. >> And if you want to go on a road road ride, you just put road tires on your wheels.
>> No, it's unbelievable. >> I was I was out that was two days ago with Riley Sheen, uh my former teammate in in Israel. Uh, and he just bought a gravel bike and we did two rides together now and it's smiles all the way through.
>> Yeah. No, it it it's phenomenal. It Yeah, it's it really is a cool bike.
The incentives You're totally right. I I don't really subscribe to the idea of oh, Spirit of Gravel is dead now. I'm like the moment Lacklin and Howy started showing up or Niko and Nathan H and you needed 10 years in the world tour to win one of these races.
It's like it winning races became unaccessible for your cat 2 or your cat one dude who's balancing a job. >> It's like >> because the boys went for a beer the night before a race and hung out that it's like still the spirit of the gravel. >> Yeah.
>> It's like give me a break. You're living in Andori. You're living in Jerona.
You're living >> The thing is also when you look at the races and all the guys like I am maybe the guy who goes into a race looking at equipment uh setup all of this in the most traditional way possible. Like I don't uh put my handlebars in. I don't uh use a bladder under my jersey only for aerodynamic gains.
Uh I go with the classic gravel tires. I don't I don't do all of this crazy stuff. Not crazy, but but like experimental stuff.
And then you see all the guys who been racing gravel for years and they are experimenting with a lot of different stuff. Um how to go faster. Um which is like they are the guys also being the old school and being yeah gravel has to be like this and this and this.
But everybody is just driven to go faster. And also the guys who's been in gravel for years. >> I I just I I don't like the argument that that generation of lads put out that's like you're just getting more world tour than like you came and you world tour everyone else.
Now you're getting more world tour than them. And it's like what? You're just you're just getting outdone at your own game because you're willing to sleep in an altitude tent.
>> I'm not. >> Yeah. But you know what?
Like there's there's someone out there right now >> listening to this in an altitude tent. >> Oh, one of my the Norwegian guy in past racing uh Seaman. He's in Sierra Nevada right now.
>> That's grim. That's grim. I love Sierra Nevada, but that's grim.
>> Yeah. at this time of year. >> That's I that's hardcore.
He's up there with Uno eggs. >> But look, you get the edge where you can and that's just competitive sport. And when there's you put an incentive when you say there's a contract, when you say there's prize money, you're always going to find people that'll within the limits of the sport do what they can and then outliers who outside the limits of the sport will do what they can.
We're going to do Dopen is going to hit gravel because there's an incentive now >> to win bike races. Yeah. It's like it's just like a a risk assessment you run through.
What are my chances of getting caught here? What's the penalty if I do get caught? What's the upside if I don't get caught?
And you make it's that's my problem with the whole doping system. It's like if the penalty is so severe it changes the whole equation. If you get caught once and it's a lifetime ban, >> all of a sudden you're like [ __ ] maybe it's not worth rolling the dice on this.
If you get caught once and you get a two-year holiday like Valv where you go to Sierra Nevada and you come back into the sport and then you just win lege that year, it's like >> right not much of an incentive. >> No, you're right about that. No, it is becoming is getting more and more money into this uh and it is going uh it is getting more and more professional.
Um and we will see that over the next few years. uh in 27 gravel points uh under the UCI calendar will also count for a world tour team. >> That's wild.
We chatted to sour coffee this morning. >> It's like you will see it get more become more and more professional and you will see more and more world tour guys coming into these races especially in 27 when like this year I think I made 1,200 points or something UCI points in gravel. >> Like that's a lot.
>> Any world team would like to have 1,200 points. >> Yeah. You're going back to the World Tour, bro.
No, >> I had to break it to you. You're going to be at a stana next year. >> Enjoy your time at Specialized.
>> So, was it a concern of yours going into a team with Keegan? Not not personalitywise. I heard Keegan.
I don't know Keegan, but I heard he's a great lad. Uh, a lot of people speak very highly of him. But going into a team where as we jokingly started out the podcast where I'm like, "Oh, you're the king of gravel.
" Keegan actually maybe is the king of gravel for the LA well if you at least look at the last five seasons he's been pretty unbeatable >> as someone who what you were fourth and unbound last year you could put out a good argument that if you have one teammate maybe you win unbound last year one dude who can sit at 300 watts for five hours and control that break >> you maybe win unbound >> is there a hierarchy going into the team where this team leader does domestics or how do you think this is going to set up >> of course this is uh some conversations that we're going to need to have um which is already on on schedule to happen. Um but when I was told that Keegan was coming as well, I was actually just excited. There's also strength in numbers.
Um, of course, a race like Unbound, maybe it's maybe it's the one race where you really need to think about it as a team uh to control it in your favor, but still a lot of [ __ ] can happen. Like me and Matt can have a puncture uh after 80k and then maybe we don't see the front again. So in the end when we are three strong guys it will be in our favor but we need to play our cards right and we need to have some honest conversations about how we are going to do this but I was just super excited that Kikin is coming.
Do you think it's going to play out like road dynamics? We because as you say specialized yeah maybe the salaries are different this year but there has been specialized >> teams like there has been gravel p you know there has been gravel teams for a few years but they seem to be more of a collection of individuals rather than a >> I maybe I'm wrong but when I look at PA last year I don't see you laying it all down for someone else and then just pulling up to watch the finish on a big screen like >> no no that was the that was one of the rules we had in the team that we we we don't ride as still mystics for each other. >> We don't race against each other.
>> Yeah. >> But we also not doing leadouts and stuff like this. We do our own race cuz also at pass you come in with your own sponsors.
>> Yeah. >> We're not all on the same bike. We all getting paid from Well, I wasn't getting paid this year, but everybody's getting a bike and and some economy from from different brands.
So you wouldn't say to a guy who's racing a colon, hey, you need a pull for me and I'm on a specialized. Um so so we all had our own interest. Um and I find I think the dynamic was was it was working.
Um because it's also so much stuff is happening in these gravel races that it's not often needed that teammates and and like do mystics is not needed that often except for Unbound the way we saw it raised this year and how the conversations and the talks were after the race that you got to treat Unbound more like a road race because it's very little challenging. It's super long, but there's not really any point where you can be like, "This is the key point. This is where the race is going to uh >> going to start for real.
" And you just saw it this year, like Cam and Simon, they had a 13minute gap, >> but that's like almost a classic road structure there, isn't it? We've let the you know I don't want to dismiss the boys cuz it to at the time people were happy to let them roll offs. They were a little bit >> Yeah.
I saw them go and I was like chow chow see you later. >> So you're kind of in road equivalent. You're kind of like that's the Fred break of the day gone.
>> Yeah. >> You just need to stick someone on the front now. Make sure that doesn't get out of control.
>> Yeah. But there was no one to go in the front because we all had had our own interest. And I'm like, if if if uh Matt and Keegan and and uh all this the strong guys, if they don't start to pull, then why should I pull?
>> So, if Keegan says to you next year, sit on the front. >> We'll see about that. >> That's where I see it.
Interesting. >> Yeah. Yeah.
No, it it is it is uh when you see it from the outside and also when I look at it, I can be nervous that are we are we I don't know them that well, but are we going to be three two big egos? BMC from a few years ago when they signed Van Averart and remember they just threw money at the problem and so I think it's interesting how UAE built this team because it's built with massive stars you know stars that would be team leaders anywhere else >> but they're all point for as opposed to the BMC model where it just went to bits. Yeah, I do know that they there is works in the background where we like the calendar of each rider is being set up to have uh peak fitness in different places.
>> Yeah. >> So that is one of the conversations that we are going to have at camp. Um who is targeting what?
So there will be some structure that we're not of course we all need to be peak fitness for unbound but the interest in this from specialized is that we win as many races as possible. So we don't want three riders to be peak fitness at the same time three times a year. >> Yeah.
Um so yeah it's it's difficult to say right now how we are going to do it but I believe that we all go into this with in good faith and we want to see the specialized bike win races and we want to see the off-road team win races. The US calendar seems a little bit more set up if you look at lifetime Grand Prix for actually needing help, needing domestics than the European one, which is a little bit more technical, >> little bit more chance for flattening. Like, >> yeah, >> even if you look at the way some of the lifetime Grand Prix stuff played out this year like if >> Leadville Keegan's got to go and do his thing, but he didn't go under six this year arguably because the pace wasn't high enough early.
He's he's alone super early with Simon Pillow. drops him on the climb and he's then he's got a four and a half hour TT on his own. >> If he has someone deeper into that race with him, he undoubtedly goes under six.
Yeah. Again, >> maybe that's a case of in there, you're just on a mission early in that race, >> ripping it apart, but he also maybe loses the series in Big Sugar because that group goes up the road and then he's left to try and be calm in a bunch sprint and calm being a fast finisher. that group's not up the road, it changes the dynamic of that final little kicker into big sugar.
So >> yeah, >> I think although it's difficult to, as you say, to identify key moments where teammates are necessary, >> teammates definitely as it plays out could shape that lifetime Grand Prix. >> Yeah, 100%. And I think you will you will see it more in the American racing than in the European, as you said, because in Europe the the the terrain is just different.
It's challenging. it's fighting back at you. You need to be strong on a climb.
You need to be good on the downhills. It's technical. There's not that much draft over here.
Whereas in the States, like I said, you have 10 miles this way. >> Europe suits Kegan better than the US. >> Yeah, 100%.
>> Yeah, >> that's why I we also saw him become world champion in in the I don't remember the XC. >> Yeah, his skills are sick. >> Whatever.
Uh marathon mountain bike distance. Um and >> two road he's having a clue about mountain biking like yeah it was one of those mountain bike >> flat bars you know he he he knows how to handle a bike and and here >> it's in in Europe it's it's more honest like there are some tactical uh perspectives in racing but it's not that much because the drafting is very little when you go 8k an hour up a climb >> there's no draft >> since getting back into training the biggest thing that's hit me isn't fitness It's fueling. I used to finish rides totally wrecked.
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I'm going to put the link in the description down below. Europe and Jirona are like, it seems to be the home of gravel now in gravel's sick around here. Yeah, >> I've ridden the road a lot in Jerona.
I don't know, 2010 or something whenever I started coming out here. The road, not that it's a bit boring, but you know, you've ridden there's not too many new roads. >> I've been here for nine years now, and I I I can't find new roads anymore.
>> Yeah, I I don't know if I'm quite at that level. I probably could find new roads, but yeah, I end up doing >> four hours off doing all coasty. >> Like it ends up in the same >> Yeah, exactly.
gravel. I'm like, every time I go out, I'm like, I've never seen this trail before. Has anyone ever seen this trail?
It doesn't look like this. >> It's funny how I know this area so well on the road like and and I have the whole map of the area inside my head when I look at it like say on Google Maps. >> I know where everything is.
And >> then I go I make a new gravel route. I try some new roads and suddenly I hit some like come from a gravel path and I'm on the road and I'm like where the hell am I? >> Yeah, I just experienced in Santa Val.
I like popped out on the road. I'm like >> I have never seen this road in my life before but I'm like 7k from Torona or something. >> Yeah.
Yeah. Yeah. No, it's it's it's super nice.
Like and you just see the the network of gravel roads here. It's insane when you fly out from Jerona airport and you you you climb in up to the air up in the air and you look out the window, you can just see these dirt roads. >> Yeah.
>> Everywhere. >> Yeah. No, it's it is insane out here.
Is there any party that's worried about next year? >> Nervous how it's going to play out? >> No, not really.
Um, I'm just excited like it's it's going to be super cool uh to be just fully supported uh from Specialized and it's maybe the biggest bike brand in the world. Um, and to I'm also honored that they wanted me in the team. Like it's it's a massive step for me.
Um, also considered that this year was a gap year and this was I had to really this year was to take a chance like it was a risk going into this year. Um, and if I didn't manage to have the success that I had, then my cycling career would have been done. Does it feel surreal in a way?
It's like, you know, we talked in the past. It's like, yeah, I got the impression you thought your cyclone was maybe done. Yes.
>> Your best years were maybe in the rearview mirror and now it's like, oh [ __ ] maybe this chapter is just starting to get written. >> Yeah. like uh I was I I still I always believed that I could I hadn't reached my full potential.
Um but I never found my way. I never found how to do things right, how what would work for me and and the physical part as well as the the mental part. Um but somehow I I found a new way of doing things over winter last year.
Um and and through this year uh I pieced everything together that I learned used it in the correct way and and then my my whole process uh mentally on how to uh go through things, how to think about it, how to feel about everything just came together like I finally found my way and and I'm reaching the potential that I always believed that I had. um seeing me become better just a better cyclist. >> What's really interesting about the way you approach it is like the way you approach equipment seems symbolic the way you approach it all.
It's like simple actions compound and done really well. Yeah. >> It's almost like >> no one does boring and consistent.
>> Yeah. >> Better than you at the moment. Like we never have a conversation where you're like pinging me a message and you're like >> I'm trying this wild new breeding technique or you know I found this magic supplement.
So it's like how's it going? >> Yeah. Trying dip away like >> Yeah.
Yeah. Just I'm I'm Yeah. I say I I found my way and and I really enjoyed uh I I find enjoyment in in in not doing anything special.
Just consistency is key. I learned that I don't need to you don't need to go on these epic monster rides. Just take the days off.
>> Unbound block. >> Yeah, my unbound block is nothing special. >> 4hour rides.
>> No, my what is everybody do their unbound block in the start of May or something? I think I don't know. I saw a bunch of posts when I was in the US about this was my unbound hash unbound blog and um they'd all been doing crazy hours for two weeks.
Then I checked my two weeks, looked at their dates and checked my two weeks, 35 hours. >> You know that uh meme like how it started, how it finished. >> Yeah.
>> It's like I wonder if you looked at the people who done the unbound block and be like how it finished. Season finishes in July, they're cooked. Yeah.
>> DNF at Unbound. >> Yeah. So, obviously I had done all the work before that because I also have tracker work.
That was a big goal. Um >> and 10 years world tour. >> I Yeah.
But I never ever did 40 hours in a week. That is just way too much. I get the privilege to chat with some of the best coaches in the world.
like you know most weeks I can't make any sense out of the unbound block. I've put the questions. They can't make any sense.
>> But let's not talk too much about it because uh >> you want people keep >> I want people to keep doing it, you know. >> Uh looking ahead at other equipment pieces. Do you have like foresight on what you're going to be using?
Wheels, specialized using Robals. >> Yeah. Uh yeah.
Yeah. Everything that Specialized produce we're going to use. Uh obviously >> helmets.
>> Helmets. Uh >> staying with Oakley. >> I'm staying with Oakley.
Yeah. Um and uh there are a few sponsorship like few few things on the material side where we find our own stuff. Something like glasses uh >> shoes.
No S Works Specializ shoes. Um >> which I've been using for a decade uh or two. So >> it's a handy move.
Like you've already been using the bike as well. >> Yeah. Like it's it's also one of the like as soon as I heard about the team and and they were interested I was like this is my number one priority cuz I love the stuff that they make like they produce um I think if I signed with any other bike brand I wouldn't be allowed to race specialized shoes and they are pretty important to me because my knees are fragile.
>> Oh yeah you've had that's actually even pretty recent. I watched the >> what were you shilling on your Instagram there that p documentary about the tracker. Yeah, >> pretty good actually.
>> Yeah, thanks. Thanks. I liked it.
Liked it as well. Um >> your knee injury is pretty recent. >> Yeah, I I had a knee injury over winter last year.
>> Um >> like even before track you weren't riding that much. >> No. >> Did you have time?
It was between after Santa Val. >> No, no, no. It started mid December and was it kept me completely more or less off the bike for a month and then it was like two step forwards, one step back, two step forwards, one step back.
That's right. >> Kept coming back a little bit and until it wasn't until I start I put new insoles uh 170 mil cranks and uh then slowly it got better. Then then the strain on the knee when I was riding wasn't that bad, but it took a lot of time.
It really took a lot of time. So, it wasn't until >> that's a dark enough spot to be in where you're like, "Oh, this is my year where I need to make this work and now I've got a knee injury." >> I was feeling the pressure.
>> Were you kind of looking on jobs.ie going like what's next here? >> Yeah, I was actually when that was by the end of 24 when I didn't have a new contract anywhere and I hadn't made this like shift to gravel.
Um, I was looking up degrees online like what should I do now? >> And it was terrifying. Um, >> should we start a podcast?
>> Um, just being in that space where what am I going to do? And I was I was because at that point I was not ready to stop. I wanted to keep going.
Um, >> it's frustrating when you feel even if maybe >> I had the drive and the passion and >> you feel like there's more there. >> Yeah. There was more to to come for.
So I was like, I'm not looking at this online. What should I do next? And like just in despair like I'm I'm I'm never going to find anything that will give me the same amount of joy.
I will never be passionate passionate about something like this again. Like it was just terrifying all of that. And then luckily I got this chance and I took it.
>> So how do you see the like gravel industry playing out? Because teams it's not like team it's not like someone waved the magic wand in the offseason here and said teams are here. Everybody has a contract.
Teams are here and I don't know how many people have contracts. 12 >> maybe >> more Magamo Canyon Specialized. >> Yeah.
>> Not a hundred. >> No. >> Like so there's a large chunk of the lifetime Grand Prix fail on the men and women's side >> don't have contracts.
>> Yeah. >> Which is a weird a little bit of a weird dynamic. We don't see that in the world where it's not like you're half the field have contracts and half the field don't have contracts.
Yes, it does create this weird two-tier disparity. Oh, in access to resources uh stress levels, job security, everything. How do you see this playing out?
It's difficult to say. Like I said, I think I think teams are here to stay. I think more teams will come like this past racing.
Uh they will stay on uh there's also this team in Germany. >> Don't know them. >> Um Pilaga is there was there a few guys like and and there are already teams and you see see guys riding the same kid uh but not really portraying themselves as teams like we will see next year with Canyon Specialized that this is an actual team.
But I think we will just see team like all the smaller teams like teams that are not really a team but still ride together. >> Yeah, >> we will see it become more and more um driven into the team structure uh over the next yeah already next year but also after that like it will develop into a like team sport. Uh I think it will still have the privateeers.
Um but I honestly I think life will become more and more difficult for them. >> Yeah. I think the challenge with the privateeer model always has been we're not too sure what success is.
And I even mean that from a brand point of view like if you a Castelli athlete on the spirit of gravel like what's when they sit back at the end of the season like what's success? Is it winning races? Is it social media reach?
Is it number of podcasts they appeared on? It's not that clear. Like in the road, it's very clear.
>> I don't care if you appeared on 2,000 podcasts. How many UCI points have you got? >> Yeah.
>> Like, >> yeah. >> We're there to win. Gravel hasn't really figured that out.
And that's where I worry with the private model now that results are going to get harder and harder to come by. Yeah. >> If you're not on a team, >> does it just kind of disappear a little bit?
I think the privateeers they will always have uh a good chance of of of sponsorships if they are good on social media. >> Yeah. >> Um but I also think that this sport will be more and more driven by results.
Maybe it would be more driven about like on wins than actual just okay I top three here I top five there um >> just suits you don't I cuz you hate social media. >> I I don't hate it. Uh but >> you're like last year I need to build social media.
>> But I also don't love it. Um I'm trying. Uh then I have one good week and then I have three bad weeks and then I have one good week.
>> You got to hire an intern now. Yeah. Oh, yeah.
That' be that. >> Yeah. >> Mod should be the M TV should be the name of it.
>> Um, so, but yeah, it's so like which races are the important ones, which races aren't. Uh, UCI versus gravel world, gravel earth series versus uh lifetime. There's so much that aren't really, you know, it's not like on the road where everything is by history and tradition and you have the monuments, you have the grand tours, you have the oneweek stage races and then you have the pro series and the point debating what the big races are on the road.
>> Yeah. And okay on gravel we know track and unbound they are big but then there are bunch of other races where like is this an important race or isn't is is it not like the the UCI series they're basically all the same I think. Um then there's the world championships where road guys come and changes the dynamic and everything and the courses are historically been super easy >> criteriums.
Yeah, like predictable, easy to race. Um, and then you have race like the rift which is out of gravel earth series next year. Is it an important race?
Uh, you have Santaal season opener here in Europe. Then there's the love gravel worlds in in the US. Um, the lifetime races like under unbound.
Um, sea otter. How important is that? How important is the odd in Europe?
Like it's not defined. >> Yeah. >> Which races are the important ones?
>> And even with the Lifetime Grand Prix series, it's like you were saying made one of the points like gravel should stay gravel. That's not Lifetime Grand Prix Series. >> No, that's mountain bike with a road bar.
>> Yeah. So it it's like Leadville, Schwamagan, Little Sugar, all mountain bike races. >> Yeah.
So >> So I guess they're not important to a gravel team. But then they are because it's part of the lifetime. >> Yeah.
See, it's a weird >> and the lifetime is important. >> It's a weird dynamic. >> So I think over time it will be defined which races are important and which aren't.
Um so far we just have track and and unbound that are like the the pinnacle of gravel. There's track in Europe, biggest race in Europe, like undoubtedly, and Unbound is the biggest in the US and the biggest in the world. Um, but everything else is what is good, what is not.
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Parley cycles engineered for that feeling that keeps us coming back. If you consider your tracker preparation last year, obviously you won it, trained well, but you most likely rode across from your house to pick up your own numbers. >> Yes.
>> Cued with everyone else. No like VIP queue. Next year most likely looks probably gluing your own.
You're playing around with tubeless the night before. Glue all over yourself >> like figuring out air pressure like >> Yeah. Yeah.
you were like I am going to a race. >> Yeah, I will still have to go pick up my own numbers because that you have to do. >> Oh, you do have to do that.
There's no race. >> You have to show up yourself um and show your ID to get your number. >> You know, >> which I'm fine with, but I can't wait to not mess around with the bike the day before the race.
>> Oh, the stress. >> I hate that. I was up in the Pyrenees during the UCI race up there and uh I needed to change my tires.
And then the so I put new tires, but I just couldn't get the tires seated. Uh, you know, you want it seated before you put the sealant in. >> So, I couldn't get it seated, and I needed needed a an air compressor to do it.
>> So, okay. Then I go in the car, drive down to uh the the the village, find a bike shop. Their air compressor didn't work.
Luckily, there was another one, but the whole city like village was um shut down because of like I couldn't drive from one place to another. So, I had to walk through the entire place, get the tire seated, walk back, drive back up only to figure out something else was wrong. Had to come back down again and then my entire afternoon was gone.
>> Yeah. No, it's >> and >> overcooked pasta and this year >> I was furious that night >> before Badlands uh Victoria sent me their new tires, the Trentino T60, the beige ones. I'm not sure if they're Yeah, this Jackie, but yeah, they're used.
>> Yeah, exactly. Yeah. So, I was helping them uh with them, giving them feedback and stuff on them.
But Vtori is on zips are a tight fit at the best of times, but wherever is going on with these tires, I'm trying to put them on >> onto my bike and my girlfriend's bike. Uh I just like I can't. She comes in, she's like, "What is going on?
" I'm like down to my boxer shorts, like cuz the sweat's just everywhere and I can't get them on. >> Yeah. >> I had to put them into the bathtub in hot water to stretch them and make them more pliable for a while.
then soap up the whole rim to try and get them on. Like it was a [ __ ] show. The whole apartment's messed.
I'm like, >> I would give anything to have a look at it right now. >> Yeah, I think I think that's the thing I look forward to the most that my pre-race day will be so much more chilled. >> But this is what I mean with the gap.
>> I go do my training and then >> but that's the gap, isn't it? Between now where I'm saying it's going to get harder for privateeers. You were the privateeer last year running around town, >> going to a bike shop, looking for a compressor, coming back up, recoveryy's compromised, your food is [ __ ] now because you're after overcooking your pasta.
>> The stress with all that, >> you're going to be kicking back next year, no problems. The private still coming around town. >> It's a nonzero difference.
>> Yeah. >> When you get to race day, >> you already they're picking the most talented lads to go on to the teams. Now you have an extra edge on infrastructure.
You're going to have access to the best equipment, probably stuff that's like unbound traditionally specialized roll out a new fleet of bikes for the coming year that's normally better than most bikes everyone else is riding. There's an equipment that it's like the gap starts getting pretty big pretty fast. >> Yeah.
Um and I know it's it's hard to say, but it's it's that sport. That's professional sport. >> Yeah.
I just think about when I rock up to nationals, >> but it it is also like you can also you can compare it a little bit to what's happening on the road now with this fusion of in Mare and like guys are being left behind. Um and it's it's it's a tough world out there. Um I managed to pull everything off this year and have a nice have a great year so so that I could move up the ranks.
But but I also, you know, I can also take it into perspective and think what if I had punctured half of my races and I didn't have uh if I didn't win tracker, if all of this like it would have been completely different and it is a Yeah, it's a tough game. It is. >> Yeah, it's elite sport.
It's not >> Yeah, >> it's not for everyone kids. >> Yeah. And and I was in in elite sport on the road and I lost.
So like I I even when I still wanted to, I couldn't get a contract. So I've also been on the other side where you're fighting and fighting and fighting and and nothing uh nothing comes your way. Um and it it is damn tough.
>> You must be proud. >> I'm super proud. Yeah.
>> Because it's been a grind. >> Yeah. >> Like I could see the slight quiet confidence change in your attitude from last time we talked.
Yeah, >> where you're kind of like, oh, I'm doing gravel. But those those undertones of insecurity of like I feel like a bit of an impostor. Maybe I should be back in the world tour.
You know, how long can I do this for? Is this sustainable? I have a kid.
Should I be looking to get a job? >> Like it was almost like what you were saying without what you were saying. >> Now this feels like a career.
It is a career. >> It is. Yeah.
Yeah. It's my It's a second career. I >> I uh I got uh as a second chance and managed to with hard work and dedication.
>> You sound like a cancer survivor. >> Managed to Oh yeah, but uh but yeah, I managed to pull it off and and with support from the family and and personal sponsors and but it a lot of hard work. >> Is it a multi-year contract or can you say >> uh it's two years?
That's brilliant. >> Yeah. >> I almost think one year contract should be legal.
>> It's like they give you almost no more job security than having a no contract. >> Yeah. >> Like as soon as you sign it, you need to look for another contract.
>> Yeah. Yeah. It is hard.
It is hard. Um but I do sometimes a one-year contract is also good because keep on your >> keep on your toes and say you you lose the security, but if you have a great year, you have a chance to make more money. >> So that's good.
You can take the old ro road model now and you can just be pure chill in year one and then go get some results in year two. >> Yeah. Yeah.
No, it's Yeah. two years and I'm stoked about it. >> Is there a scenario where like we joked about him but like the the UCI points come to gravel your UCI points hall isn't insignificant last year.
Is there a weird world here where you're almost back at world tour as a gravel rider on a world tour team? >> Uh that's luckily at least two years away from now, but I don't see that happening. No, >> it's going to be a Yeah, there's a there's a gravel has to figure itself out, I think, this year.
It's a big figure itself out year. >> Next year and the next two years is going to be Yeah. just have to see what happens.
But it it needs to be more defined. Yeah, I think so. >> I see gravel as a mass participation event.
>> Yeah. >> Like I know people say it's a mass participation. Now, how many people do track like 2,000 or something?
>> I think four. >> Four. So, >> but I see a future where it's not Jirona, it's Barcelona.
>> Yeah. And it's not 4,000, it's 40,000. Yeah, it's like the Barcelona marathon.
I just don't see why it's not mass participation at that time. >> But this way, you can compare it a little bit to triathlon because you have the pros like the Blumenfelds, the the top guys on the front, >> but then you have age groupers behind and it is also like a mass uh can't remember what you said. >> Yeah, mass participation.
>> Yeah, like a lot of people are doing this, but you still have the top professional guys on the front. Um, and yeah, it's the same with gravel. Like I think it's going to be difficult to do gravel races and events like we see on the road where it's only the professionals.
Even at world championships, you have age groupers starting behind. >> Um, cuz there's also as an organi organizer of a gravel race, you also need some income. you need people to come there and and do the race and pay what it cost to get a race number and and do the course.
So, um I don't see it going that way. It's going to be that mass participation. >> I one thing I'd love to see next year with the I'm calling this the professionalization of gravel now.
It's got to be professionally safe. >> Yeah. >> Like% >> got to start marshalling [ __ ] junctions.
>> Like it's unacceptable to be going through one Marshall J. I get there's a lot of junctions on these things, but it's like unacceptable to be going through unmarshal junctions to be in the middle of nowhere without medical support to not have, you know, some sort of marshall on a motorbike within >> Yeah. >> you know, a couple of minutes of a rider that goes down.
>> Yeah, there there needs to be done something there. Um like the horror example was Claraara over in Unbound. She was 90 minutes in a ditch with a broken shoulder.
um could have been much worse and she didn't get help. There were um which is just there were still motorbikes on the course passing her but that was all media people and no one stopped to check on her. >> Yeah.
>> Um there's an helicopter in the air filming the race but there's not a helicopter around to pick up >> for medical >> people who are >> because it's dangerous like >> it is Cycling's dangerous in general, but gravel, especially when you're racing, it's like, >> yeah, >> you're one of the best gravel riders in the world. You crash occasionally, >> you know. >> Yeah, I had one crash, >> you know.
So, you you got to roll that back down to the age groupers talking about that just don't have the skills that are doing this because it is participation now. >> Yeah. >> You can't absolve yourself of your duty of care to look after participants by saying like, "Oh, it's epic.
" >> Yeah. >> We're selling as this epic adventure. It it needs to be epic.
And also it's very rare that we have phone service. >> Yeah. >> Out there in the middle of nowhere.
>> Riff this year almost no cell phone service for the entire race. >> And H said he stopped with a girl who he thought had a broken back. He seen her crashed.
>> Yeah. >> And he stopped and yeah he recounted just this. >> Anyway, most of the time I don't even race with my phone.
Yeah. >> So it it is >> it is an important subject to be discussed. >> Yeah.
And I never I I hesitate to talk about it because like I'm a massive advocate for cycling for gravel cycling and I it's not like I'm trying to dog on the organizers and say you're doing a [ __ ] job. They're doing an amazing job at creating this new genre where you know you're able to make a good full-time wage from it and I'm able to talk [ __ ] about gravel and get paid for it. But it it does need to keep evolving.
Like we're still talking about safety in the world tour. Like I podcast with Froom and he went off on one about UCI and safety and we're not doing enough. And you know big data we we need to be tracking.
You know like if you and me sat down right now we could probably list races on the calendar on a spreadsheet. Mark the dangerous ones red. Then if we pulled up GPX files of the dangerous ones, I'd go, "Well, where's the dangerous corners on the dangerous races?
" and you go, "Well, here's the four dangerous corners in >> Parise." And then you'd be like, "Cool. Let's make a GPX file that doesn't have the dangerous corners.
" Like, it's not that hard, but we still don't do that on the road. And we're years behind road safety levels and gravel. >> Yeah.
Um, I think it that's it's going to be difficult to go on the same level, but it's better prevent some stuff like make sure there are medical assistants on standby all the time and that if someone crashes, it's that the guys who organized the race that there needs to be more people on the courses, but it's it's it's also a difficult thing to It's tricky. Yeah, it's >> you should only do a lapse like we do in most UCI races. Like when you do a big course, unbound 320k track at 360, >> you can't really do much there.
>> Yeah. And look, I'd love to talk to the organizer. Maybe it's those course.
Maybe the economics just don't work for them like in terms they got to make cash out of this. People >> Yeah. >> need to make a living.
But yeah, like you're saying, the course needs to adapt. >> Yeah. Um because the danger is part of it.
Um, but there should be a safety network around the race to uh to help people. >> It's d I I split it between danger you consent and danger you don't consent. I consent to like >> you know if I try to follow >> you somehow miracle I'm in the same group as you over a climb and I try and follow you on a descent.
>> It's like >> that's your own choice. >> Yeah. I'm choosing that danger.
>> Yeah. >> If we're in a paseline and we go through a junction and we get plowed by a 4x4 coming at an unmarshal junction. Yeah.
It's like I don't I don't feel like I've consented to that level of >> Yeah. >> So, it's different. But regardless, I think it's going to be a super interesting year and watching how this >> Yeah.
>> gravel genre develops. And yeah, I guess congratulations. >> Thanks.
Thanks, >> Lance. Thanks for joining me. Thanks for having me.