Gravel is dead. The spirit of gravel is dead. You hear people saying this all the time.
But what does it actually mean? Because gravel is growing. Gravel is bigger than ever.
Well, it means that gravel changed. It's not the same. Today, I sit down with professional gravel rider Nathan Hass.
We talk about how gravel got faster and more professional. But in the process, I'm left wondering, did it lose itself in this transformation? And this conversation, it's not about blaming anybody.
It's about understanding what happened. Welcome to the podcast, Nathan H. Nathan H.
welcome to Rob Podcast. >> Thanks for having me. >> Really excited.
It's time to call fulltime full-time whistle. Three loud shrills at a whistle on the career. >> Yeah, I think uh as we say in Australia, pull up stumps.
What What goes into that decision to say it's time? >> Good question. Um I think the problem is I'm actually just such a a racer in my mind that um >> What What age you?
uh 36. >> You like with gravel you probably could have gone over 20 years. >> Yeah.
But but that's actually kind of the problem, right? It's like I I love racing so much that if you're racing at what is like an elite level and and this is sort of like the funny thing that we can get into about gravel, like what is what is a pro gravel, right? What is elite gravel?
The problem is is there's no there's no barrier to actually being in that, right? You literally tick a box and if your social media profile's high enough, you'll get to start on the front line. And that's great for sponsors and everything, but but where does that leave you with personal satisfaction?
And I think for me the the realization was towards the end of last year um I'd be in the front group of the race and just in the moment where I'm like now would be the time to attack. I couldn't. And when someone did attack, I just couldn't follow the way I used to be able to.
And it started to feel really unsatisfying knowing that whatever I'm doing from now on, it's not as good as what I used to be able to do. And um I I love trying to win. I think that was actually always more my motivation in racing than actually wanting to win.
>> Like the process of trying to win. >> Yeah. It was like I I got more satisfaction I realized out of trying to win than I did actually from winning.
>> Yeah. >> But that still required a certain amount of um physiological ability to put myself in that situation. And then it just became pretty evident that I couldn't do that anymore.
And then there's all these young riders in gravel taking it so unbelievably serious, you know, weighing all their food, going to altitude camps, just basically cutting off enjoyment in life. Um, and it also in its own way kind of changing what the gravel sport meant to me and symbolized to me. But is that a case of you slowing down or are you unwilling to do the things that I remember chatting to Daryl Imp all the conversations kind of blend into one.
Daryl I impy on the podcast as he was finished and he was talking about he could see what Cyclone was becoming and he was glad he was retiring because his outlook was this is going to become something that it's going to be very difficult to do with a family. It's going to be altitude camp, race, altitude camp, race. Very difficult to have a balanced life.
Is that you unwilling to do the stuff or is that just you think it's FL time ticket? >> It's it's you know sometimes you have to face your own ego, right? And it's probably it's probably part of that is the case is that certainly not willing to do that because I did that for 10 years in the world tour.
>> Um know this was this is career 2.0 for me or actually 3.0.
I look at mountain biking before road. But it's like to me I still see gravel as like the last frontier of cycling, you know? It's like the the last place you can still >> it's gone lad bike packing is the last frontier.
>> No, I would say it's the last frontier of competitive racing where you shouldn't have to give up your entire life to do it. And um you know I think there's a little bit of sadness for that. you know, when I was essentially I was the first world tour pro in Europe to switch across to gravel.
>> Yeah. >> You gave a lot of legitimacy to that vertical like because we didn't know each other, but I raced Rift the year you won Rift, but I just remember looking at going how unattainable this is. It's like he's been a decade racing in the like I was used to seeing I'm sure we'll jump into some but like at the front the classics piloting Dan Martin around and it's like what he's doing the same race as me here and and then you just solo off and you know you do your thing and rift but that for me just seemed so unattainable.
gravel seemed inaccessible then to be at the front of the race because it's like oh well if I'm on a cat one race you know I can train hard after work I can do 10 12 hours a week and be competitive and win a cat one race but now if I'm coming across the rift I need to come across with decade of world tour experience so it's almost like yeah you're saying the stuff that now lads are doing is making it uncompetitive but I really seen that inflection point when you guys when you and Lacklin and Hy and stuff started coming across it's like wow this This is different there. This is not it's not a Sunday race anymore. >> Yeah.
I mean, we're victims to our own undoing of the sport in a way. Um >> because in in many senses of the word, guys like Pete Neetner and Ted King um in the USA, they were the first real gravel pros. >> Yeah.
>> Whatever that actually means. >> Um >> but it meant that all of a sudden the industry saw it as a more legitimate place to actually do marketing. And then more and more riders started to realize that there's actually money to be made in this sport to the point now that some of the salaries riders run are actually quite unbelievable.
Um, so that's definitely the reason why people are becoming so professional because they they're chasing this this thing. >> Um, however, I will remark that anyone who is a pro the best pro gravel rider will still get absolutely stomped on by any World Tour rider. >> I literally just had this conversation yesterday on the podcast.
I was like, you take the best gravel rider in the world, >> are they the 200 best World Tour rider? >> Not even close. >> Like, not even close.
>> I'm like, it's a different thing because, you know, we chat with Darren Rafferty this morning and Darren was an outstanding U23 rider, you know, winning all around them and he said he stepped up to EF and he said he had a conversation with Betty All where he's kind of listing his pomeis thinking he's going to impress Bet. Bet's like, man, everyone's won you 23 Worlds here. Like we've all won U23 Flanders.
We've all won baby hero. It's like that's the entry point. Everyone's done it.
Now what are you going to do? That's that's the cost of getting started in this industry, >> right? So like you're the 1% but to make a a splash you have to be the 1% of the 1%.
And that's that's a funny thing that I always say to people is like, you know, sometimes people are just looking there for their chance to realize that they're actually they're not quite good enough when they step up to the world tour because, >> you know, there's only one tad egg. Um there's only one finger guard and you know, the list goes down pretty >> quickly before you start getting to the non-winners of the world tour, right? Um, but you know like I think that's the point that I still sort of feel with gravel is it's like you know you become a very big fish in a very small pond if we look at the overall you know talent pool of cycling.
Um because if you really have that talent you'll be in the world tour. Um I think there's very few riders that would still choose a gravel career over a road career. >> There is a lot of upside like we were talking off camera.
Maybe not as much financial upside, but somebody who I can see if I had the talent to be a poor world tour rider or the best or top five gravel riders, the attraction of that because don't have to do the altitude camps, don't have to do the time away from home, can base myself in one place, not on the road, don't have the danger of grand tours, fighting in the classics. and a lot of the a lot of the glamour and glitz of it of being known like I don't single out lads but I just beer springs to mind because he had a stint at UAE now he's like one of the very best gravel riders in the world but didn't make it in the world tour the equation is attractive I don't know what the lads are getting paid at that end of the gravel it's it's not trivial >> no it's not trivial um not at all but you know who who am I also to tell you know an audience here what what people want in life. You know, there are definitely some riders that would much prefer to be doing gravel.
Um, you know, Keegan for one, um, I know he was offered quite a few, you know, professional road contracts, but I think he did the math in his own head. He's like, well, I can be the biggest name in my sport, be at the top of the pay scale or roll the dice. It's like, sure, the ceiling for pay is much higher in road cycling, but I think you realize I get to stay in the USA.
I get to race like eight race days if that's all I want to race. Yeah, if I win them all, I'll continue to stay on this kind of uh like gravy train, I guess you could call it. Um so that that's one side of it, but to to me it's still a little bit of a shame um to see gravel kind of going where it's going and there's all these new teams coming up next year and uh >> no one's like everyone's whispering about the teams.
I've heard some stuff. Specialized have a team. Mama have a team.
You know, they've moved away from mountain biking. Canyon have it as well. >> No.
Has anyone made their official announcement that there's a team? >> I don't believe so. Um, but you know, so when your friends are signing for the teams um so it's happening, but >> it's it's also of a bit of a funny point because the new UCI system is actually counting UCI points towards your overall UCI point.
gravel UCI points count towards your >> I believe so. >> Okay. I didn't know that.
>> Um so what are we gonna see? We're going to see a hell of a lot of world tour riders coming across to all the UCI gravel races and for that matter a a very high percentage of all bike sales that are not ebike is gravel. So a lot of brands are also going to try to use their asset of the world tour riders to do big races like Trackr, Unbound, Steamboat, etc.
So I think in a funny way as well, you know, these team formations coming out to be like we're going to be the biggest, strongest gravel team, it also might be their undoing >> to the UAE show >> until someone like the world champion Floren. Um >> Yeah. >> And and you go, okay, so that's the problem.
Oh, you know the >> solve for that problem. He just finished Le. >> Yeah.
And it's like, you know, if TAD turned up to a race, it's game over for everyone. Um, so what am I trying to say is that we're trying to professionalize this thing that is essentially a counterculture sport. It's like imagine telling uh, you know, MC Jagger, actually for the next concert, I want you to put on a, you know, a dinner suit and sing carols.
It's to to me it just goes against the grain of what the sport has always felt like. It's about um you know Pete Stener and I have always joked is that you know oh you know we we sort of jumped into this thing and definitely gave a little bit more oxygen to the you know the >> and Pete definitely done that. I've had Pete on the podcast a bunch of times but like I remember one of the early podcasts like oh you know what's the what's what's the plan for the season you going to cruise around have some beers have some fun?
He's like no I'm going to win everything. Like I'm like to use the much disliked Irish sportsman's term Conor McGregor. I'm not here to take part.
I'm here to take over. Like Pete went to redesign that industry >> and and he did to his to his credit. But I guess the repercussion of that is now Pete's also being like, you know, there's not many races left that actually have that real community feeling.
And it's it's because of what's happened. It's because all of a sudden it has become by one definition of a professional sport means you get paid to do it. And the pay is there now.
So more riders are taking it seriously. But what has it done on the other side? You know, I I get saddened when uh you know, I was planning to go to a gravel race where two years ago we'd be sort of, you know, in a WhatsApp group.
Who wants to go to this race? We'd fly together, we'd rent a big car together, we'd stay in the same Airbnb. And, you know, if it was five of us, you know, all five would have been in the top 10 of the race.
>> And that that's to say that we didn't see each other necessarily as competitors that we had to beat. We saw each other as friends on this really fun thing that we do together. You know, we'd have maybe we'd even have wine or a beer at dinner the night before the race, but certainly after the race, we'd all go out for a big dinner, actually enjoy life, not just think about getting in the compression.
>> See, the cat one lads like me who were there, and now seeing you guys come along, we seen that as the end. We seen that as the, oh, this used to be this really cool fun thing that was all about community, and now the world tour lads have come along and they're ruining it. It's I think it's >> I mean I I actually would refute that because Oh, >> please do.
>> Uh you know for for the first year you know there there was probably like a moving group of us of about 10 that I kind of feel is like the OG gravelers in Europe >> and >> yeah there's definitely you Colin Strickland. Yeah, even Nikico Roach, Yasper Oakland, Pod Havoc, um Peter Vakot, um like this there was there was a full gaggle of us and we traveled together basically to every one of the big races and the night before every single race we were in the local pub next to the start line drinking with all the cat ones. We were keeping it real and like this was the whole point was that we was we were there actually to show people that >> we are going to race our faces off tomorrow.
We're going to race as hard as we can, but we're not at home tonight measuring our rice out like to the very grain and trying to do everything just right. And >> where the community came from is that all of a sudden everybody was integrating and everybody was hanging out. And it was the first time in my entire time in cycling since being at a club level on the road or mountain biking that I actually felt that there was a community because like professional sport, professional cycling, it's a bubble, right?
Like contact is so limited in in most cases for most athletes. it's not wanted. They don't want to be said hi to when they go down to a local cafe.
They want to keep their business. They don't want to shake hands with anyone cuz they don't want to get sick. >> Whereas what we were doing for the first years of this sport, we were actually building community.
We were telling stories. We were getting involved. We were making friends.
We were going on bike trips with people that we had met from another race. And they're saying, "Next time you're in the country, stay a couple days earlier and let's go trail riding." We all did this kind of stuff.
Whereas now, it's just becoming super sterile. >> I think the problem is incentive stuff. I'm a big believer in incentives.
I think why, you know, we're not going to go down the whole doping path, but the incentive system, if you look at even doping for me, is so wrong. If you get caught for something, you have a very small chance of getting caught for something. If you get away with it, there's huge upside potential.
If you get caught, very limited downside potential. You go on a two-year holiday like Valverde and you come back open arms. The incentive structure and gravel, you guys started making not trivial cash.
You know, there's six figure deals from clothing brands, bike brands getting thrown around. You can't blame the guy coming behind you for going, "Okay, maybe I haven't been in the world tour for 10 years, but I'll do what he's unwilling to do." He's unwilling to stay in and weigh his rice.
I'll stay in and weigh my rice. That's where my edge comes and now I'm going to get paid for that. And it just becomes this level up, level up, level up until someone's like, "Maybe I'll go to a wind tunnel.
I'll weigh my rice and I'll go to a wind tunnel." it it's evolution of sport the same way we've seen in road. >> I mean, we're in hard agreeance on the fact that that's how it's evolving.
But it doesn't mean that we can't say that doesn't suck. >> It sucks. >> And it really sucks because >> now a rider can't just go to a race traveling with a bike in their bike bag with a set of hand tools and expect to win Unbound.
>> You know, Specialized had eight people, I think, for Ian Boswell's pit stop. The first time I did Unbound, they pulled up. Ian hopped off his bike.
There were two people with fast drills to take out the wheels. They put in new wheels. There was someone on a pressure wash.
There was someone just to put glasses on his face, a new helmet, a hydrop pack. And this all happened like so like brand new wheels. So he had fresh tires.
There was nothing wrong with the other tires. It was just in case there was a nick in the tire. >> This all happened.
So, he left the feed zone with a lube chain, new wheels, clean love that >> clean bike, new hydropack. In the same time that I went up to a table that I had my stuff on, grabbed the hydropack, put it on, got two new bottles, and squirted on lube, my bike was still a filthy mess. And I'm riding next to this guy out of the feed zone, and I'm like, like, how are we now in an equal race?
Right. So, it's like, >> but is it just finding edges where you can get them? like you know to be fair to Ian he works a full-time job and it's like he's like okay well I can't get 20 hours training done a week but I can make up for that because I have good relationships in wah who specialize I can do a super cool pit stop you know you just finding an edge where you can find an edge within the parameters of the limits of the rules >> the point that you're making if you're saying that it's divisive between the cat one riders when I first turned up to Iceland rift on 15 hours training a week after my time in the world tour and racing at the front versus seeing what we're seeing now where teams are actually going to be turning up with like proper camper vans, buses, mechanics, swanurs, >> a chef.
Like we're not talking about the same division now. The cat one now can't even see >> that is a possible thing to have fun in. Like >> it's just stairstepping up, isn't it?
>> Well, I wouldn't even call it a stair step. I would call this like a >> escalator. >> This is like Elon Musk's rocket to the moon, right?
It's like this is this is going into like space. We're going into outer space and the problem is is that we're going to have this like core group of gravel riders that are all fighting for these team positions and that all of these sort of like younger talents, the people that were, you know, sort of thrown out of their road dreams or mountain bike dreams or cyclross dreams by being very good but not quite good enough, >> which is a massive amount of people. There's so many good conte riders, there's no job for them, >> right?
And then all of a sudden you see gravel. You don't even have to be on a team to race, which is like which is quintessentially the beautiful thing about it is if you can get an entry, you're on the start line. >> That's still super cool for a calf four to be able to rock up the tracker and beside you on the start line, >> right?
But now, how are they actually going to be within a proper chance of the race to actually show themsel and talent when teams are actually using team tactics? >> Yeah. >> Right.
and they've got the best equipment and they've got a mechanic and they've got like feeders all across the course and they've got spare wheels in the feed zones. Like the thing to me that's kind of sad is that um teams are just pretty much trying to like copy and paste from other forms of cycling and it's like no this to me is still the rockstar sport that like someone should be able to jump up onto the stage with a guitar and rock the house down but it's getting harder to do that and >> and the problem with teams is we know it's going to work. Like if you look at Unbound last year, >> of course it's going to work.
>> Calm super win in Unbound. >> Mads probably wins that race with one teammate. >> One lad who can ride 300 watts for three hours to control that break >> for sure.
>> He probably wins that race, >> right? >> And it so it totally changes the outcome. Totally changes the bike sales or swings that pendulum from Scott to Specialized.
There's huge economics around it for these brands. How do you Is the genie out of the bottle? Is this like AI or crypto?
You can't put the genie back in the ball. >> Well, there's more than one way to skin the cat, right? And I say let the teams if they're going to do it, it is inevitable.
Let them do their thing. But it's why I believe still in the privateier model and and the people who still want to do it like rock stars can still do it like rock stars. Are we going to win as much?
Probably not. But are we going to inspire more of the cat ones that still want to be at the pub the night before the race? Because I think it's pretty [ __ ] actually to try to inspire the cat ones to lose life balance.
>> Yeah. >> Because cycling always needs to be in right relationship to your life. Why is the world tour not necessarily relative to a normal person?
Because they can't do 25 hours training a week. They can't take weeks off work to go do altitude training. They don't have altitude tents at home.
And I can tell you it's not a very romantic thing to sleep in a in an altitude tent, >> which is >> it's pretty it's actually pretty hard on a relationship. So unless it's making your family a lot of money, don't do it. So you know, road teams, they're inspiring people to do all this stuff, most people are going to opt out.
The people that do, maybe their life balance isn't great, but like the people in gravel that I still have the utmost respect for, not not saying that I don't respect the guys who are going to guys and girls who are going to, you know, the road teams, sorry, to the gravel teams, but the people that I have the most respect for are the ones that are still trying to do gravel the way it should be, which is getting involved in the community stuff, being around, actually picking up your own race numbers, seeing the community, because once you're on a team, you're completely isolated from the can because the team uh director will go and do all of your registration stuff. You don't even see anybody until the start of the race, right? >> Yeah.
>> And you train just with your team because that's what team culture does. >> But the thing is we've we've also seen this. We've seen it with road.
We've also seen this with mountain biking. Like cross country mountain biking has been decimated for a decade because we switched on this model of teams and buses and the public largely tuned out. So it's like almost cautionary tale of be careful what you wish for.
Here we have something as an industry that's selling a lot of bikes, moving a lot of people. I >> because it's cool. >> Yeah.
>> And because it's fun. And as soon as we make it too sterile, it's not going to work. Right.
So it's really important that we still find a way. >> I don't know. The tracker isn't a 50,000 person event instead of a two 3,000 person event.
Like if marathons are >> well it's actually because of permits there's a maximum >> but could we see a situation that it's not it's not tracka it's Barcelona gravel with 20 30,000 participants I'm not sure if we maybe we see that in the next 10 years >> I mean would you have told me that there would be this many gravel races worldwide four years ago hell no anything's possible right like I think the UCI has 40 races just the UCI next year gravel series is >> can the industry stop it? I know you're riding Castelli for the last few years and I love the brands like the guys there a lot. Chatted to Steve Smith from Castelli on the podcast not too long ago who loves you by the way who's saying nothing cool [ __ ] about you.
Uh but he kind of had almost a impassioned call to action from the industry heads to be like we can put the brakes on this like we are there's is there 10 20 people that control the biggest brands they can put the brakes on that and they can change the direction of this like it is an inflection point where we get to choose do we go left or right >> right and but that inflection point begins by people actually talking in a way in which we are now, right? It's not just to get on the bandwagon and say it's inevitable. It's about saying, "Sure, it's inev inevitable, but why not let them be the pariah?
" You know, if they want to do it, let them. But like, we're going to keep it real and we're going to do it this way. We're not going to support these big me machines and mechanisms of how it's going to be done because can you tell me who won Unbound 3 years ago?
>> I'm just going to say Keegan because it's a safe bet for every race, but I don't think he did. I think it was Boswell. Nope.
I mean lucky last year calm, right? >> Lucky. Yeah.
No. >> Do you remember who won tracker two years ago? >> Clear.
>> No. Right. So like gravel's not just about who wins the race.
Can you name who won the tour to France for the last 10 years? >> Yeah. >> Right.
Last five years of Flanders. San Remo. >> Yeah.
You know all me and Darren were having this conversation this morning. EF are super switched on to return on investment for brands for that reason because he's like who came seventh last year in doors doors. Tagaland.
It's a ride and a half to get top 10 endorsed doors tent tagaland. What a ride that is. You've the legs of your life.
>> Brands don't care. Public doesn't care, >> right? >> They care about that storytelling that, oh, Lackey rode the tour to France and his shoes didn't fit him and he stuck on a pair of flip-flops and he bought a kid's bike and >> they cared about that.
>> So, if we can't even remember who won the biggest gravel races of the year, is is gravel really about the results? I would argue no. So, what does that mean?
Where's the value in gravel riding? The the thing with gravel is that I don't think there's I mean, maybe there is. You never know.
But I can't imagine that there's more than a handful of people that follow gravel results that don't actively ride gravel. >> Yeah. >> Like the participation rate to interest rate is pretty much a onetoone.
Like the tour to France, I don't know, maybe is it 10% of people that watch the tour to France worldwide actually ride road? >> It's probably even lower. Like I'm just even thinking of cycling in Ireland as like a microcosm of the world.
I think we've like 12,000 licenses including leisure and road like you multiple to that riding bikes. >> So, so here's the so here's the point. >> We have an active community as big as the entire community that actually thinks about or talks about or wants to do gravel.
It's it's a 1:1 ratio. So, who's actually setting the fashions and the trends and the lifestyle? Is it the people who are winning?
You know, if all of a sudden they're just talking about nutrition all the time, it's pretty boring. >> But is it as an industry, you can't decide what success looks like? You can speak to this probably because you've have really, it seems like from the outside you've really deep relationships with the brands you've ridden for the past few years, Konago bikes, Castelli kit, like I even know you're on a cask helmet.
Like, you know, I can see Gravel and I can see the brands you work with straight away. But do the brands even know what success looks like for a year? Like if they're going to sign you in, not even specifically you, the gravel rider who's coming up now and he's had a year one contract and they're going to resign him for a year two.
Like what's the KPIs they're looking for to say that was a successful year? Is it race results? Because if you're saying no one knows who won track at three years ago, if it's not race results, what is it?
Is it social media following? Dylan Johnson got left out of Grand Prix for the coming year. Or is it this untangible that we still haven't quantified?
So, we get to the end of the year and we're like, "Was that a success or not?" Well, I don't know because actually we don't know what we're shooting for. >> If you have a non-endemic sponsor, it's pretty much about views, right?
And that can be on a whole scale of things. Road cycling has non-endemic sponsors because they have TV rights. >> Yeah.
>> So, Microsoft could own a team that said Microsoft. for the tour to France, which I believe all of the viewership from every single race put together in the whole world is still less than what the tour to France delivers. >> Yeah, I actually seen the bar chart on how much tour to France is compared to fam.
>> It's literally more than everything else put together if I remember correctly. >> Don't quote me on it. >> I think it's pretty close to this conversation this morning.
It's Yeah, I think that's >> either way just under or just over. But non-endademic sponsors get involved because you can guarantee them a certain amount of views. If a writer wins, it's a very clear way for you to calculate or analyze how many views that got.
It's on every newspaper around the world. It's on every television for that day, right? So it's like how many views did it get?
That's where the value is. But when you have endemic sponsors, which is bike industry sponsors, which I would say make up 99% of all sponsorship within Gravel, kind of leads to two things. There's well three which is the more ethereal one which you're hinting at.
There's raw sales you know did something increase sales. >> Yeah. >> Views.
So this is about branding. So it's like branding is some brands are performance driven. Some brands need to be cool.
So, you know, it kind of depends on each it depends on what specific brand is trying to what story they're trying to tell. Um, but then the third one is sort of the like how does it actually relate? How does it make people feel?
And on the third one, as soon as we go down this sort of like team line where it's not attainable, people don't see themselves being able to be on that team. Does that kind of connect with that sort of like ethereal storytelling bringing you in feeling or does it actually make it exclusive? Right.
So gravel is a very inclusive sport 100%. Right? So there's some products say Schwab tires uh Eva Schlick won uh Unbound four years ago on the Schwab G1 RS.
And then all of a sudden, you know, the 4,000 people that do Unbound, they actually go and look, okay, what tires won. >> Yeah. >> Unbound because you need to know that that tire can even survive the race, let alone to win it.
So the sales for Schwab G1 RS the year after around the period of Unbound skyrocketed, right? So that's sort of like the branding turning into marketing for a product that's specifically about performance. So, if you're a performance brand, you need to try to target winning riders.
Um, but does anyone remember what bike he was on? >> I didn't even know what tires he was on, but yeah, if I had have been gone to an onbound, I might have went to investigate that. >> So, like a bike brand actually needs to tell the story more about like what's cool, what looks good.
It's like on on gravel, yeah, you need to have a good bike, but there's there's sort of different things on the bike that are actually more determinant on getting through a course, whereas most frames will get through a course. Like, they're not going to break, right? So, people relate to different parts of the bike industry in different ways.
But the the team thing I think is going to in I mean I could be wrong and I'm always happy to be wrong but to my current understanding of of gravel and the world and the market and the industry is that I think the brands that go fully down that team line are going to isolate themselves by projecting the wrong message which is we are exclusive whereas everything else in gravel the things that are successful are actually the brands that are working more about it feeling inclusive and people being able to say, "I see myself on that bike. I like the story of that person. That resonates with me.
" >> Yeah. What the way I think about this is we're moving from a width to a depth. Sorry, inverse of that.
We're moving from a depth of the story to a width of the impressions. And I think this is dangerous because in marketing land, width of the impressions makes sense because there's somebody in a marketing office going, "Oh, amazing. Our our brand got two million views or two million eyeballs on that.
" But it's like a good example to illustrate this. I was uh went to the Grand Theart in Leil this year on the way back. I was getting the train.
I'm watching stage two on my phone on the train. Watching a shitty little stream, illegal stream on Sporza or something on my phone and it keeps popping up like a little Samsung ad up the top corner on my phone. Do you know that tiny little X you're trying to press and you're like every second time you press it, you actually click the ad and it takes me to the Samsung home page.
So someone in Samsung's head office is like amazing. This ad has got us two million views. Meanwhile, I'm typing into the family WhatsApp phone, anyone ever buys a Samsung phone again, I'm going to shoot them in the head.
They're dead to me. And it's like the difference between marketing and land where you get a lot of impressions on something, which I feel like we could move that if the teams come, a lot of visibility, maybe TV rides start coming, a lot of people riding, you know, a specialized bike, but we're moving away from the depth of the story where you really got to understand your story, your journey from world tour into gravel. you know, you had opportunity to do podcasts, to do long form YouTube videos, to tell story in a nuanced way that people really connected to.
I feel that depth of story moves me as a consumer to buy a product a lot more than I watch, you know, a Scott bike or a Pinterella win a stage, the tour of France. I don't feel that much of a connection to go and run out and buy that bike. I think you hit the nail on the head and I think I can sum this up and then we can move to the next subject.
But a story about a person is about the individual. Correct. >> Yeah.
>> So if you all of a sudden have a group of individuals and you put them under a banner of a team and you make them all look the same, is the story about the individuals or is it about the brand? Yeah. >> Is that the Samsung in the corner that's annoying you or is the richness still lying and telling the story of the individual that then that becomes branded content as opposed to just pure branding?
Right? >> We're moving from Marco Pantani to Team Sky here, >> right? So, you know, Steve, Steve Smith and I, the, you know, the boss of Castelli, we sat down in Iceland two years ago.
We went for the pre-ride and we looked around. we started to see this sort of increase in people all looking the same and we sort of thought, "Wow, where's this going?" You know, we could see it.
It was an inflection point. We knew that at some point someone's going to put the balls on the table and go big with teams and then the race is on. We sat down and we said, "Let's start something together.
" Which is the the Castelli SOG team. >> I I thought it was really cool. >> Which stands for Spirit of Gravel.
We know it's a cliche name, but that's exactly why we did it. We wanted it to be a little bit corny, but what we're fighting for is to keep that spirit of gravel. And what we think is the like the fundamental point or the nucleus of the spirit of gravel is that we still need to celebrate the individual.
So every single person on so gets to design their own jersey. They get to choose all their other bike partners that they want. And we get to kind of celebrate this group of people together under sort of like a clothing banner.
But it's it's not about the brand. It's actually about saying we want to support the privateeer model because at the end of the day, the team thing is going to tell stories that might inspire some, but it's not going to tell the stories that will inspire a lot. And that's what I want to protect because I still want people to feel as if they can have a beer at the pub with anyone that's in the race the night before or >> Hatchets or or join a recon ride and not feel as if, okay, that's the eight riders from that team.
I can't get on the back wheel of it. They're very serious. It's like >> you want the 16year-old kid or the 14-year-old kid to come up to you and say, "Hey, can I do the recon?
" And you say, "Absolutely, man. Like, let's let's teach you some tricks. Let's let's skid down this hill together.
Let's >> This is actually a really nice segue into the road conversation because I think gravel was for a large part starting to erode some of the historic barriers of entry that we had in road. Like you couldn't show up to a certain road group unless you looked a certain way. You couldn't show up unless you had a certain skill set to be able to ride in a group to be able to descend and you know stand without throwing your bike back to change your rain cape at 40k an hour.
needed this skill set and I think rightly so group riding preserved this skill set and passed it on from year to year. It's very useful and it's a reason the rules endured generation after generation pass down. >> I can't tell you how many times I got yelled at at 17 in a road bunch learning the hard way to get in line to but it's for safety.
it. This is the argument I have all the time because we've had sure I was talking in the podcast recently with this. We had this move towards inclusive clubs and I think inclusive clubs are brilliant.
Like I love, you know, you met Sarah, my girlfriend, like getting started. She found cycling really stuffy and hard to get into. She's like, I'm going to go and wear kit that's essentially skin tight, like body paint to a group of lads that I've never met and I'm the only girl there.
And then they all have this weird, you know, secret hand signals and weird words they use. Cars up, cars down. It's like what is going on?
Like I just wanted to go for a cycle. I didn't know how to learn a new language. And that was like super exclusionary.
But I think with time then you realize there's actually a reason why we have those rules and the super inclusive clubs. Maybe they're really welcoming at the start. But it's finding that balance of going how do you be really welcoming but also realize that the rules exist for fun and for safety.
Like it's fun to rip a descent at 85k an hour, a centimeter off someone's wheel, but you can only do that if there's predictability in the wheel in front. >> Yeah. >> Well, I I think it also comes down to egos and communication.
I think road bunches, I mean, not hating on it, but I think one of the realities is that there'll always be a bunch boss. You know, in any bunch ride that you go to around town, >> it's always going to be fast. And you know, I've I've done so many crits and races all around the world, and you always see people yelling at each other aggressively.
And and I don't think that's it's the message isn't wrong, but how they give the message is the delivery. And um you know a fun story for me about actually how you get that message correct is uh at Unbound four years ago when we could still use arrow bars um someone who's actually become a great friend and and I guess this is also part of the point is I didn't know him before the race a guy called Sebastian Blau uh he was on this bike and I've never seen arrow bars on a gravel like a gravel bike like this before that was so long they were completely tucked in they like cup his arms and you know other people they kind of had like >> what you'd call like comfort bars. It was almost another way to change position actually in a way for those longer races.
I miss it because it was nice to just change the position just for your back cuz you know 10 12 hours on a back pretty long time. >> But anyway, Sebastian was completely flat. It was arrow like this and we were in this group of 20 and we're all swapping off at the front of Unbound.
The guy was like wicked strong. But when you're using arrow bars, if you're at the front of the bunch, that's cool in gravel cuz you're you're making the group speed go up a lot. >> But then he would swing off and he would stay in his arrow bars and every single point in the in the swap off line, he was in his arrow bars >> and it was starting to freak people out because like he could barely see up from his position.
>> He's in the ton >> and it's like we're talking about gravel. Like this is not a smooth road where you can point out a pothole. >> They're everywhere, right?
Right. So, he's like dodging his potholes last second and I and I sort of said, "Hey, hey, buddy. By the way, I'm Nathan.
Nice to meet you." Uh, just so you know, we love the fact that you're ripping turns on the front with the arrow bars, but like it's pretty dangerous because if you're in the middle of the group and you hit a pothole and crash, that's 10 of us that could go down all because you didn't just hop on your bullhorns for that moment. But when you get back to the front, go in and it's like, "Oh, okay.
Okay, I didn't think about it cuz you know you're racing. You're in your own world. And then all of a sudden we got all the free speed from Sebi at the front of the race and he was like really ripping turns like it was unbelievable.
And he would get back and all of a sudden it would be safe. And then uh you know after the race he came up to me and he's like, "Hey man, thanks so much for the advice. It's the first time I've ever done a race with TT bars and I've never done TTT work or anything.
So to me I just never thought about it. So thanks for the advice. I would hate to have crashed someone.
" And since then we've actually become like really good friends. And I think this is the point is that like these these rules and um the need for teachers to be in our sport is extremely important. Like we need to pass down this wisdom, but it's about the delivery.
And there's one issue I've always had with road is that I think that the delivery can sometimes be a little bit too harsh. Like I remember coming home at 17 from a bunch ride in Canberra in Australia. Bling was on the ride.
this guy um Michael he just went off at me because it was it's called the hour of power so it's like the fastest one of the whole week and I was just a little bit too far off the wheel but it was cuz I was struggling and suffering >> and he get on the wheel don't be here if you can't be on the wheel and I remember going home and I honestly felt like crying you know I I felt really bad about trying my best and it was the first time I'd made it that far into this bunch ride was like thought I was doing really well and then I just have this like dude who I thought was just an arrogant tool basically yelling at me and I didn't learn anything from him that day but then at the end of the ride this other guy Dylan Cooper came up to me and he goes Nathan like don't worry about him he's like he likes to think he's the king but in those situations if you're not able to hold the wheel it's better to just get on the back of the bunch you know like stay there as long as you can and then go back and you go okay so that's a teachable moment versus one that's actually just horrible able experience and I think um you know if we look back to gravel it's really important that the people who can be teachers are actually still spreading themselves through the community so that we can share those teachable moments with the right voice. A lot of it's the contradiction or conflict between personal good and collective good to the arrow bars example like there's a a different rider might have made a totally different costbenefit analysis of this going well if I do crash don't really care about the lads behind me because I'm going to save actually five watts by being in the bars in the draft maybe it's two watts it's not zero you know there's definitely an arrow it's not zero it's not zero >> so it's a number greater than zero so he could make a totally selfish decision and go, "This is just better for me. [ __ ] everyone else.
" Someone else will make that. And it it's hard. I don't I I think that's why it's a cycling community.
You're trying to look out for other dudes and help other girls flat or have a crash or if you're, you know, we're in it together. It's I always think I don't like the cycle us versus them mentality, but there's not that many people that are outdoors. It always cracks me if I'm on a gravel trail or something and a hiker or something shouts at a cyclist or something.
Like, bro, it's pouring rain. We're the only two people on the mountain. Like, the outdoor active community is small enough.
We don't need to be enemies here. Like, we we're together in this. >> Don't fight with family.
>> Yeah. Like, come on. Like, I remember having it with this dude.
It's like, there's no one in 50 Mile. It's just the two of us. Like, I'm not exactly ripping these trails.
like we can both share this love. But I I do feel a little bit maybe this is all man shouting at clouds type stuff, but it feels like that there's a little bit of a dissolution of the community since we move towards training plans with dep prioritization of group ride skills. It's gone more towards how do we judge a good rider?
What what's per kilogram can you do? It's like well that's not how we judge a good rider. We we're using the wrong scorecard.
You know, efficiency still matters more than anyone actually wants to talk about at the very top of the world. Like Felix G's putting out the same numbers as some of the other best GC dudes. He starts a climb in P60.
There's no numbers you can do to come up there. Efficiency matters at a pro level, but it also matters when you your group, right? you know, if you're due to >> But I would even zoom out further than talking about what I mean.
No matter how much money you'll ever make out of doing, you know, podcasts and your time in this industry, you'll still never compare yourself to Rbert Murdoch, right? So, like same goes with power numbers. Most riders in the world, if you're able to ride for five to six hours, the truth is you're already pretty much in the 1%, right?
And then there's the 0.00001% of the world, which is tadic. >> Even though you're in the 1% of the world because you can do a 5 hour ride, don't forget how incredible that is that somebody could do 120, 150 ks in a day and still be able to get off the bike and not collapse, right?
That's when you actually think about it, it's phenomenal. >> It's pretty cool. >> It's absolutely awesome.
>> I like to never take that for granted either. >> And it's it's a beautiful thing, right? People are looking after their health, their mental health, their friendships, their community.
So why are we why are we comparing those numbers to tatting? Why are we wondering about sort of two three what's here? The for me when I look at so cycling from a zoomed out perspective is it's like these are the these are the billionaire outliers.
I'm not talking about money, talking about power numbers. I can't compare my money to that. That's insane.
Otherwise, I would be really depressed all the time. But what I can look at and bring that sort of metaphor across to cycling is like, does cycling help me as a person? Does it help me find happiness?
Does it help me find community? Does it help me find balance? And when cycling is in right relationship to your life, it is a tool.
But when cycling becomes out of balance, you know, when we're doing too many indoor trainer sessions, when we're out just flogging ourselves senselessly chasing a number that's never going to be Tad Egg's number, so we'll never actually be satisfied because that's sort of part of the human condition is that >> I'll be happy when >> I'll be happy when but will you? So it's like, you know, is the perfect diet working out how many grams of carbohydrate because a gram of carbohydrate is not a gram of carbohydrate. A calorie is not a calorie.
And I can go into this, right? It's like there's much more to food than just weighing things out. Spiritual.
Sharing a meal with you actually probably has a better health benefit. Let's say it's something, you know, just average down on the street here because it brought nice hormonal effect to us. We created connection.
We created friendship because we shared a meal together. sitting at home and weighing absolutely everything and avoiding social circumstances and avoiding life experiences because I want to work on this number. That's not about balance anymore.
That's about obsession. And I think that that can actually be a bad thing for a lot of humans. Every rider chases that feeling.
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Do you think Nathan 2009 getting off the mountain bike and starting to think about road cycling, if you talk to him, would he be in agreement with balance or was he just, I'm going for this. I see a goal. I see a paycheck.
I see podium, prestige, status, whatever it was you were chasing. Were you full gas at that? I think it's probably been to the frustration of every sports director and every coach I've ever had is that I've always kept balance.
>> Really? >> Absolutely. Because I didn't get into cycling for anything, but I like riding bikes and having fun.
>> That's the mountain biking you don't want. >> And to to be honest, I never even saw the tour to France as an option. Like when I was 17, we had a group of mountain biker friends that we had a drinking game whilst we watched the tour to France.
And every time Sean Kelly says Clasimal is the new >> when they said Lance Armstrong, you had to drink. Whenever a team said a new fastest time in the team time trial, you drank. Whenever someone said, you drank when.
So there was like all these sort of cues and it was like that to me was just this other world. I never stage to be just wasted >> to be honest. I never even dreamt about it.
I have to say I was absolutely blessed in my life. For one, um, being born in a country where socioeconomically cycling was possible. Also being born into, you know, a middle-ass family that could just sustain the cost of me racing.
And then also finding and connecting with people that gave me the opportunity to be on teams to support me through that adventure. And then the last thing is, you know, I was I was fortunate enough to be born with enough talent that if I worked hard, I could go through those ranks. But for me, I was never myopically focused on just getting there.
And maybe I would have had a better career had my entire life just been driven and drilled, but also maybe not, right? >> Yeah. Look, it's impossible to know in the multiverse where the alternatives lead to.
>> And I was never too hard on myself when I did bad. >> Did you enjoy it? I enjoyed every second.
For me, it felt like the most wild life experience you could ever be dealt. Sure, I was working super hard, but I also always kept life balanced. And I was always trying to keep things in my life that kept me, I guess the best word would be balanced.
It was like, you know, what other things in my life do I enjoy doing? Is it worth not doing that for a super long time? Absolutely not.
You know, is it worth going down one afternoon fishing in the river because I find peace when I'm standing in a river? I catch fish or not, doesn't matter. >> Yeah.
>> Or is it better for me to sit in bed and do normate techch boots? Absolutely not. >> Go fishing.
Was it better to go have dinner with friends and not be able to measure the calories but actually feel as if I had human connection that day? Absolutely. That's the >> I had a psychologist on the podcast talking about this and the example he used was a ship.
And you need to think about components on a ship. If ships when they got to the point where they were sinking, they're like, "How do we solve for this problem?" They started building compartments in the hole of the ship.
So now when water goes on board, it doesn't flood the entire base of the ship. It stops at that compartment and it can't go any further. And to extend that analogy into a sporting one, a lot of not just pro athletes, I see amateur athletes, there's no compartments in there.
It's like my whole is just cycling. I Everything I do is cycling. So when you take on a little bit of water and that's an injury, bad form, setback or whatever, you don't have other compartments.
You don't have other interests in your life. So all of a sudden a bad race becomes a bad life because it's not like come home from the race and even stuff as trivial as like having a dog. It's like, you know, you can go out the door.
I can go out the door to do a bike race flat after 40 seconds, come back to the car with the dog, AND THE DOG'S LIKE, "OH, BEST DAY EVER. GREAT TO SEE YOU, BUDDY." It's like a different world.
There's a different compartment there. I go back to my parents, not too pushed on bike racing, you know, interests that are way outside that. So, if biking's not going that well, it's like whatever.
There's loads of other [ __ ] going on. I I like that analogy because it keeps you in perspective of I think a rounded goal is what we're trying to shoot for. I'm really big on trying to optimize for good upstream effects.
And I a contrast between upstream and a downstream effect. Like if you make one bad upstream decision, I think that can cascade into a bunch of bad downstream decisions. You know the example you know a physiologist will use is if you take a bad lactate read and we say okay this lactate now represents our training zones.
We make a lot of bad downstream decisions just off one bad now we're misjudging fatigue. We're misjudging training stimulus. We're misjudging recovery demands taper demands all off that.
I think a lot of us try to optimize for the wrong thing. We optimize for performance when we should be trying to optimize for health or happiness. And when you optimize for performance, health and happiness isn't always downstream of that.
You optimize for health and happiness. Maybe it's a bit performance downstream from it, but it's not the only thing. I resonate completely with that.
It's always been my feeling. It's what I teach. It's what I sometimes get on my soap box and even preach is that happiness and health always comes first, right?
And I also see this bike season is having like a cup of water. This is pretty much the This is how much water there's a little drip left in. This is how much water you'd hope to have in the cup for the last week of the season.
The water to me represents motivation. And what takes away that is actually how hard you go. So, you know, if you're in the preseason and you start sacrificing too many things in life in that early part of the year, you know, you can you can take a fair chunk of the water out of the cup before the season even starts.
There's there's an inherent current once you start racing that takes away that motivation. It's pure exhaustion, right? >> Yeah.
>> There's going to be crashes. It's going to be injury. There's going to be stress from a team that's underperforming.
stress from a team that's overperforming because you get on this like it's got to keep going. >> But what a lot of athletes I've seen do is they get to midway through the year and they're at this much. >> Yeah.
And we forget that the cycling year is, you know, if you look at it from when you start training to when you stop training in the season, if you only have four weeks off in the year, which some athletes would say that's crazy to even take four weeks break still means that you're training and sacrificing a lot of choices in life for 48 weeks in a row, right? >> You heard that expression like an athlete dies twice. Like obviously your death and then the moment you retire.
I almost feel like Nathan has dies three times. Like your ultimate death, end of your road career, end of your gravel career. Did did you feel that in last year was confidence?
Did you feel like talk me through that last year? Have you lost sight of why you started or why is it time to call? >> Is it pragmatic running out of contracts?
For me, I would say the the only two times I struggled in cycling mentally was the last year of Kusha. Um the environment was really horrible. >> What makes that horrible?
>> A lot of people don't know how to manage failure in cycling. Everyone can manage success. That's not hard.
You just surf it. But it was a team that two years prior won 48 or 50 races in the year. They had >> Kristoff was there.
>> Kristoff was here. Rodriguez was there. Um Rodriguez was I think for the third time in a row UCI number one.
>> It was he was amazing. The team was amazing. >> And then those two riders left.
They hired a new fleet of riders. The next year we won four races. I won two of them.
So, I was feeling pretty good about myself because most years I either won no races or I won one race. >> Yeah. >> So, actually pretty good.
>> Good season. >> And um Yeah. No, I for me I think I had something like 28 top 10s.
>> You only one season, didn't you? >> Two. >> Two.
>> Two. I had like something like 28 top 10s, 14 top fives. And I was asked to come to the team hopefully to win, but mainly because I was a point getter.
Like it was hard to beat Bling, Garens's, Sean, Cockard. >> Yeah. >> Imp all at the same time, but I would be fourth or fifth or third in like almost every major race that I tried for, I would got up to top five in my Palmas.
And it was super funny because we got to the end of year and because the other riders that they hired that normally won heaps of bike races didn't and all of a sudden the pressure laid on me. Actually, I think I had had the best season in terms of success that I'd ever had. >> You were my recollection that he was quite you were finishing fast that year.
That was to Oh man. >> Yeah. Like Van Averart to line with guys like that.
>> Yeah. Like I I totally paced Venova Mat Ludenko and Bettyol and whole bunch of guys in a in a sprint and then I um I finished 3 seconds behind um No, I finished in front of Nali on the Green Mountain. I finished fourth and good legs day.
>> Yeah. And I was I finished 10 seconds behind Lutena who actually won. I was like fourth overall.
Won the sprint jersey for Roman. So it was like I was very capable that year. I I didn't win much, but for me, the the whole season was actually probably my best season I'd ever had, right?
>> Um, and what kind of happened was was because that the rest of the team wasn't having success then, you know, even in the meetings where you kind of do, you know, the check-in to see how things are going or the um what's it called? Like a wrap-up meeting on a year um retrospective. >> Yeah.
>> Was like, Nathan, we expect more from you. And I actually had to come to my own defense and be like guys this is my best season I've ever had. Like I also want to do better next year.
But like just because you want me to be a racehorse doesn't mean you can turn me into one just cuz you yell at me and you need it. It's like it was a hard environment because the whole environment was failing. So my success wasn't even seen for what it was.
And I I felt really like the air had been taken out of my my balloon um and out of my sail. And then the next year was quite evident that the the team was probably going to fold um because Marcel left, Alperson was trying to get out of the contract, you know, and same with Canyon. It was all >> Was this your first contract stress?
>> Yeah. Yeah, 100%. There was like four months that we didn't get paid um until we had to, you know, go use the UCI.
Well, I think I think in the end we didn't have to use the UCI um bank guarantee. I think in the end everyone paid, but there was like four months that we didn't get paid for. Um three or four.
And it was it was like everyone every man was for himself at that point trying to get rides to get onto new contracts. Um and I I thought to myself, this is the first time I've ever been depressed. >> I didn't have depression.
I'm aware that that's a >> continum there, >> but at the current time I was depressed and I hated bike riding. I resented the team. I I shouldn't say resented the team.
I resented how I felt. >> Did you resent the situation you found yourself in after you had some great years at Carmen? >> I like you went to Katusha with I would say a like, you know, you weren't in Ely.
Obviously, you don't mind me saying that, but there was a quiet hype about how good a rider you were inside cycling. And did it feel like oh, as Armstrong would say in his podcast, Mr. Momentum has moved the dress.
It's like the momentum's gone from I'm this super talent to >> I don't listen to I don't listen to any quotes from that guy. We won't go there. Um no I think for me it again I I always tried to keep you know external things out but I never wanted to be a victim in a situation or I certainly never wanted to play the victim card.
Um, and I just knew that the environment that I was in was getting me really down and was like the first time I wasn't able to, you know, be good in spite of the situation. It actually really affected me. >> Um, so then I moved.
You >> feel quite young as well. Like I know everyone wants 30 31 >> um or even 30. No, I was 30.
>> Like you don't have stuff figured out at that age. Like you know, everyone looks at these kids now 22 23 like they're adults. Like you're a kid.
And then um I made the decision to go to Coffidus and um >> How did that come about? Was that like a last minute scramble? >> No, no, no.
I actually signed in a well had the agreement in April um because I knew things weren't going to continue. Well, I knew Kushia team wasn't going to continue. >> So, I got an offer very early on at um Coffus.
I'm a native French speaker. Like my first my first schooling was all in French. Okay.
So, I I knew I could >> culturally assimilate with the language. Um, I might have underestimated how much I could culturally assimilate. >> Yeah, I was going to say French teams wouldn't have the best reputation.
>> Yeah. And and I think I think the hard thing was it it's a team that is trying to compete with big world tour teams on a very small budget comparatively and they also have to pay everybody as employees. So >> is it French law?
>> So the writers's actual salary is much smaller because they every rider has to pay pension to France. So, you know, just to put a number out, you know, if a rider was wanting a h 100,000, Quickstep could pay them 100,000, but Coffidus would have to pay like 133,000 for them to still end up with the same take-home salary. >> Um, which really handcap like it kneecaps them from from uh being able to build a team just with the budget.
>> Is that still the same? So, the Catalon have to go through that as well. >> Yeah.
Everybody has to pay French tax is because you're an employee of the team. Um so that's one starting point is it was already a small budget team can handcapped or kneecapped by like 33% on that to actually what value you get and then um you know there was the IA Viviani project and I got pretty glued to that um and to no fault of his own you know there was a lot of reasons why it didn't all click but um you know IA was taken there to win tour to France stages win duro stages and it just never happened. And um I had a lot of fun with the writers.
Um we were a nice group, but again there was this big hype about everything going to change at Coffetus. I was one of the thing one of the riders coming in to help change that. Then all of a sudden I just was like no I'm not going to be a victim to road cycling anymore.
I just want to get out of this sport and go ride something that I love doing. >> Was that a one year deal? >> No, it was two.
>> It was two year. It was two and I pretty much knew at the start of my second year that I just didn't like it anymore. >> Um, >> it's like I loved road, but I didn't see myself being able to get into a situation where I could be on a good team where we would be enjoying success together, where I could sort of just play in the background doing my thing, getting my results where I can, helping big riders.
And you know, a lot of my career was actually framed around helping big writers win monuments and we did it. >> Well, I was going to say is that like how hard is gone from Dan Martin winning I'm sure you some great nights were recording above the Irish pub. I'm sure there's some great nights down there celebrating Monuments wins that you played a key key role in.
>> Well, I wasn't in the Irish pub because I was in the race. You know, it's like >> the >> But like Yeah. You had such a key role in those Don Martin wins.
>> Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, I never forgets how good Dan was.
He was >> Dan was a phenomenal >> Dan was insane. Like one of the only in the world who would almost guarantee a classics win every season. >> Yeah, he was he was bang >> bananas >> in in an era of other freaks as well.
So it wasn't like >> Aramart Sagans. It was nuts. >> It was nuts.
Dan was a pleasure to ride with for same was heal. Um same was Cav. I loved riding for Cavion.
Cav is the best leader in cycling. >> I've heard that. Michael Barry was telling me that Sky like the difference between Wiggins and Cav he's like Wiggins is just kind of sit at the back of the bus might make kind of a you know partially insecure or joke or impression or something.
He's like Cal would give this impassion guys. I need every one of you today. If everyone gives everything I can do this for you guys.
>> Yeah. But Kev Kev Kev was good at the the macro meeting but where he was even better leader was the micro. There was one one stage of Tour of California.
Dimension Data was sponsoring the race. We hadn't won a stage yet. Cav was there for the sprints.
I' I'd been second and third and so it was like we almost got that stage win. But Cav had to win a stage. You know, he was >> was paid to win a stage of California and it was like [ __ ] [ __ ] [ __ ] And it was like every sprint that sort of got a little bit, you know, messed up was like [ __ ] we're running out of chances.
for the last stage. I was rooming with a writer, Sazo Jim, who is one of the South African writers on the team. He was he was a good writer, but he was still kind of developing at this point.
And he was a little guy, so he couldn't really get involved with the lead out. And it was would have been what like 38° was the forecast for the next day. And it's like American concrete roads.
So it's like it's just an oven. These things just radiating. And Kev came into the room and he sort of was like, "Nate, what's up?
" I'm like, "Yeah, what's up?" And he just goes and sits down on Sazo's bed and he's like, you know, how's the race been, man? How have you been liking it?
He really gets Sazo to feel, wow, you know, I'm talking to one of my heroes like we're friends and and then all of a sudden it went from jovial to Sano, I want to come in here because I was thinking about how I'm going to win the stage tomorrow. So like you know when someone starts with a point like that it's like wow it's very bold like Cav was master of bold right it's inspiring to be around someone that believes in themselves so much he goes but I've been thinking there's one problem for the race tomorrow cuz I I know you're not going to be super active in the lead out and I don't need you to be like I know that's going to be really hard for you but what I was thinking about was because it's so hot tomorrow there's no way the guys are going to make the right decisions if they're dehydrated. And I actually think that you're the most important rider on the entire team for tomorrow because I know you can just go all day getting bottles.
I know you can do that cuz you're so good at coming back up through the pelaton and you know starting to like give him compliments on what's essentially the most basic task in cycling. But he made him feel like he was the best at it. And then the next day, I've never seen somebody bring so many bottles up through the >> bring bottles.
>> And it was amazing because then we stayed more as a group together cuz you know it's a pain in the ass for the guy bringing water if you're spread across the race. So we stayed as a group and and then we won the stage, right? and Cav Cav won on the stage.
And to me, for someone to actually take the time of their night when there's a lot of pressure on him too when and he was aware of it, to actually come to the writer that was essentially the least important because it wasn't part of the actual lead out that had to figure out the final to actually come to him and give him that kind of inspiration. It's like to me, I've never seen anybody in cycling like Cav. He's one of a kind.
>> Was that Cavs? I know had a couple of difficult years sprinkled in it. Maybe one of the greatest careers ever.
Was that his Epstein bar year? >> No. So that was the first year at DA was where he won four stages of the tour before leaving to go to the Olympics and then he kept the season going pretty long that year.
Was second at worlds on the road and >> then the wheels kind of fell off um after he got Epstein bar and then then it got really difficult for Cav. Um, how do you do you see a great champion in those moments managing the downsides? Because like you say, a kusha really easy to manage people that are winning every week.
What sort of cop did you get to see in darker moments really revealing of his character? I don't know how much to say. I think in in our private moments, he's a very open book.
He's very vulnerable amongst the people that he trusts and has friends with. >> You know, we were there to support him. Um >> but again, sometimes you can just be in this environment overall that makes it pretty hard.
And um you know, athletes very quickly can lose their self-belief at a point where they don't understand what's going on. Um so I don't know. I don't know if it was managed correctly or not correctly.
I just I just know that you know at that point in the year the next year by the tour to France Cav was sick you know something wasn't something wasn't clicking um but then I was also leaving the team so what happens in cycling when you're leaving a team you tend not to get raced all that much yeah so I was already off to Kusha the next season and um sort of is just what it is but you know to his credit turned it around didn't he >> one of the saddest interviews like I I don't know K met him actually met him do you know what I met Kav once. I was doing a track session in Morca with the national team and Cav rocked up and he was the nicest lad. He rocked up and I totally forgot about this.
Blocked it out my mind. So much pursuit pain. So we were doing a track session in New York.
I can't remember what we were getting ready for. Cav rocked up and just saying like can we get a session done? Any chance I can jump into the rotation?
what you know I don't know how many tour France stages he's won at this point a bazillion like so he's you know he's one of the biggest stars in the world but he just jumped into the rotation like he was a junior like he didn't skip anyone in the rotation it's like no you're up next and it was like everything was just so mannerly and so chill and it was like what like I can't imagine another industry where you get one of the biggest stars in the sport who comes along integrates in with a load of [ __ ] kickers and has no ego about him in that moment and I thought it was just so different to how the media always portrayed K as I just got to see a real small glimpse into the human who's probably Mark rather than Cav or Cavendish or whatever the media want to call him. >> Yeah. But the closer you fly to the sun, the hotter it gets.
And Cav was the most well I mean he's the greatest sprinter of all time. like of course of course you're going to have a lot of pressure. Of course you're going to have a 100 cameras on you at all points and he hated losing more than he loved winning and he always said it he hated losing more than he enjoyed winning.
So when he didn't win and he felt like he could, it really got to him and and that was what a lot of people saw were those like human reactions, but actually he's like he has what 12,000 kids with Peter and and he's an amazing dad to all of them equally. Like he's um you know I think I think a lot of the time you can see what kind of person someone is, how they treat their wife and how they treat their kids. And he's an amazing amazing dad, amazing husband.
And um it's like who Mark is, whether you whether the media has painted a story cuz that's where they wanted it to go or they painted a story of what they saw, I don't know. But my cat's a legend. He's for me, he is the greatest leader that I got the honor of working with in cycling and had a lot of big leaders, a lot of guys that I can say were still excellent.
>> Who who jumps out as those big leaders? obviously mentioned Cal and Dan. >> Oh, uh, the next most grounded leader was Tyler Ferrar.
>> I forgot about Tyler Ferrar. He was such a good rider. >> Was incredible.
Like one stage of every grand tour against Wgum. Like he's won so much, right? I think he won Wgum like multiple times.
I I forget. It's been a long time since his career. Um, but when you got things right, he loved you.
When you got things wrong, he loved you. but he just wanted to talk about it, right? So, it was like he was was someone that always like went and analyzed the situation so that we didn't do it again.
But it was always constructive. Like I never saw Tyler with his teammates and especially staff in the team talk anything but other than just pure respect. Did >> you ride Jurro 201?
>> No, I was there the next year when we went to defend it and uh he got super sick. He was third at the time, like on stage eight. He got really sick and went home the next day and all of a sudden was like, "Oh, I didn't think about this.
" Um, but then I was there again the next year uh when we had that crash in Ireland, the team time trial. >> Oh yeah, that was Dan Martin Brook's collarbone in that one. Sven stage that day.
>> Yep. Yeah. >> Belfast.
>> Yeah. So Dan Dan hit a manhole just was first to go down and then >> two different days there bro came down >> five of us out >> the next day >> took five of us out I think it's like Dan and Caldo Fernandez both broke their collar bones >> two bones broken I didn't realize that >> yeah um >> Dan caused that crash didn't he? Yeah, I didn't.
But but like did he? So it was a team time trial. >> Team dangerous.
>> If one person crashes, we all crashed. If one person crashes, it means that maybe a decision could have been differently. So like yeah, Dan caused the crash, but was he the cause?
It's like that's not the point of a team time trial. That's not that's not how it should be discussed. It's like >> Dan went down first, yes, but the team lost that day.
Um then >> actually was Irish cycling lost that day because it finished the next day in Dublin and everyone wanted to see Dan Martin. I was on the hit heavy on the finish line but everyone wanted to see >> Dublin and it was honestly it was really sad. It was really sad that then didn't get through the first day was like that was a once in a-lifetime opportunity to raise a grand tour in your own >> well from your from your nation.
Yeah. And as a national hero, like I don't think anyone got as much of a cheer at the right presentation as Dan. >> Very popular.
Very, very popular. >> Yeah. And it was cool to be on a stage with him.
It was like the noise from that huge crowd was like I could smell the Guinness, you know. I was like, "Oh." >> And it's so much happens like you know Darren Rafley was on from EF and we were talking about Ireland culturally now is its place in the pelaton is changing.
Sure. >> He's gone from a fringe, you know, Niko and Dan to like we could have double digits world tour riders in the next two, three years. You know, there's lads coming through, you know, Jamie's coming through and Kofus at the moment.
Darren's the brothers coming through. There's a bunch of them coming through >> and it's Yeah, they're not the they're not the laughingtock anymore. And >> I don't think they were ever a laughing stock.
I just think >> Well, obviously Roachi won the Triple Crown like gave us a bit of credibility with seven years. >> Look, you're not that much of an underdog country. Come on.
But we with a big gap though from Kelly. >> You're not like Kurissau, you know. >> No, no.
The boys have done though. They they've I think Roach Dan set the scene for this era because without Roach and Dan, you don't get Darren Rafferty coming through. You don't get, you know, Dylan Corkery signed for DSM this year.
You don't get that wave coming through because they grew up watching these guys. They missed the Shan Kelly, Steven Roach era. And then we had like the dark times there where we'd >> we'd know real like well we came to write a few articles about our claim their connection to the cycling world.
>> But yeah I think they don't get enough credit for that. >> No they don't need the credit but there we go. I just gave him the credit for it.
>> Yeah. But then uh next on the list would be Dan. He was he was hard to ride with.
Um because he could have the worst day on a bike and be like, "Ah, my saddle was like 1 millm too high." And you're like, "Dan, that can't be why you had such a bad day. >> You lost 27.
" And then literally the next day he'd lower the saddle 1 millm and then oh just one lees today and you're like I don't understand it or this sorry this actually happened at Amstall. He it was like one or two centimeters millimeters too high was the feeling Dan had as to why he had such a bad ride at Amstall and it was like it was like a really bad ride at Amstall. You go like but I'm thinking I think we've just come into the art dance and dance not good.
>> Yeah. >> And then flesh I take him into the bottom of the mirror and he gets second and he was like actually attacking Valvverde and he only gets overtaken by Valver at the end and you're like so it was actually the saddle like that made no sense. And then then he goes and wins the edge.
But it's it's Dan was super on or super off and there was very little in between Dan which made it in some ways really hopeful because you were just hoping for that super day. So it was always worth going in but um it was hard sometimes when you know you pulled all day and then Dan would be like can't do it today guys and you're like >> um whereas someone like you know headal didn't matter how he felt he just grounded out always always did his best and always did his best. Um, but it's just completely different psychologies, right?
And that's it's kind of what makes cycling awesome. And also what makes being a good domestic or a good super domestic a real art is that >> what's the pressure like >> you've got to understand your leaders. So you need some EQ as well.
>> But like what's the pressure? Cuz especially the Ardans, there's real key points to be in the front of these races and you were a key part of those riders being in the front of those races. There's the enormity of that pressure because these franchises, these teams are so dependent on two, three like if you look at Dan Martin getting paid a huge salary through the garment years.
It's it's the Ardans. Dan's going to bring you that value in the Ardans. You know, maybe a grand tour stage, but early part of the season, it's Ardans.
There's six, seven months of work. There's god knows how many man hours preparation into a moment where you're solely responsible for bringing him to this point of the race. If you don't do your job, it all unfolds.
>> Do you feel the enormity that pressure in the moment? >> No, I never did. So, it comes back down to the fact that I didn't care enough.
>> It's like I cared, but not in the way that the directors were like, "You have to be at this point." >> Yeah. I was always there because I loved racing the Aud.
And to be honest, when you're told to just get somebody to a certain point of a race, it's like the easiest cop out there is cuz you're not trying to win it. >> Yeah. >> But it is a new finish line.
>> Like it it is. But it was like for me, I always I've come to realize that I probably frustrated a lot of directors because they thought I didn't care, but I just cared in a different way. I saw it as a fun challenge to get to that point, not as a musto and I think it put me in that positive mindset.
So on the bus, you know, after the meeting, meeting's over, you know, like throwing food at Dan's head. >> Yeah. >> Then what's that doing though?
Right. Dan's now out of his head thinking about the race and he's going, "Piss off Nathan, man. Last time.
Do it again. It's coming back your way." And it changes the mood, right?
So it's like if you see it as a fun challenge and you you've been working hard towards it, so you got all the tools to do your best, you see it as a fun challenge, you go in a bit more lax days and you're not so myopically focused and like energyy's can >> is that rider dependent though because I know some writers that hate that bling hates that joking around environment. He just wants to be [ __ ] locked in where I'm here to do a job. I'm not here to have a laugh.
I don't know if that's 100% true. I I literally grew up with playing. >> Well, at least that's how he told >> like we we grew up doing erggo sessions in the same garage from >> or maybe it's a mature and into that at this point in his career, but that was one of the frustrations he talked about recently where he's just like I don't want a job.
I want to do the job. >> Well, maybe he's evolved. Maybe that's where he's needed to go.
Um >> but yeah, OB everyone's different, right? So, everyone's different, has different ways of doing it, but like I think one of the reasons Dan loved having me around was not just cuz I got him to the point that he needed and never tried to have my own race, you know, like once my job was done, like the the year he actually almost won the again, but crashed in the last corner. >> I got him to that final climb.
So, I was in the group and instead of still trying to get like 20th after doing my job, >> I literally pulled over and watched Dan on the big screen because there was a big screen and guys were drinking and I was more interested in seeing how Dan went than trying to get 22nd. >> Heartbreak. >> Yeah.
But made it up months later at winning Lombardia. So, you know, swings and roundabouts. But the the thing for me was it was like Dan liked having me around because not only could I get the job done most of the time, not all the time, is don't forget there's six other people on the team.
So it's like it's not always on you. >> Like you just as long as everyone's doing their best on the day, someone will be there. And that's also a nice way to think about it.
>> Um and the day that all of you were there, you're really in good shape, right? That's when that's when it was great. But like I always like to keep things fun and stress free.
But, and that's where I was getting at with that. It's like, is that a really good manager's role? Like JV in you're not just putting together bike riders.
You're not just putting together a guy who can position a leader. You're putting together someone who sits with their personality, someone who puts them at ease. The stuff that's difficult to measure, but tangibly makes a difference.
Matching personalities. Actually, I have to say one thing for JV is, you know, he has some critics, but JV is an absolute master at getting a mixed group of people together that works. Like, he is culturally a master at pulling a team of writers from all walks of life, different cultures, different languages, and you never really see like a click on JV's teams.
No, there was just everyone worked seamlessly no matter which group of riders went to each race was the only team I ever went to that it didn't feel like oh this is the Belgian race you know it's like six Belgians and me and I'm just listening to Dutch like >> or Flemish you know I'm thinking oh this is the race where it's just all Italians and me and you're just on your phone because you you're bored or >> whereas JV has he I got to take my hat off to him he's he's done it consistently for a lot of years and that's why his team does work is that JB's really good at picking characters to work together and I don't think I have that skill. >> A few weeks ago, Angelo Poli of MetPro joined us on an episode. It was episode 1231, five tips to speed up your metabolism.
And the response to that episode was absolutely huge. Some of the biggest response we've had to a podcast all year. A lot of you reached out with DMs and questions and feedback.
So, MetPro on the back of this has joined us as a show sponsor. If you missed that episode, I'll link it in the show notes down below. Now, if you're watching this, you already train smart.
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co/roman. That's me tpo.co m.
I'm going to leave that link in the description down below. Would you step into the fire side into the theme car into the director's work? >> No, I don't like it.
Um, you know, I've started working with team of coaching. >> Yeah. Um, and to be honest, I think I I was to a certain extent, I don't know if it's going to be all my life, but to a certain extent, um, I think part of my role in cycling was to learn so I can help teach.
Um, and >> I've heard you're a very good off-road scales teacher. >> A few people. >> Yeah, that's that's one of the things I like to teach.
I I think about skills very much from like a physics standpoint. Like I have a I have a bachelor of science, not completely just a bike rider. But um for for me, I don't necessarily think I need to change the the tip of the sword with my lessons.
But I think um sometimes I like thinking in archetypes, right? So there's an archetype, the wounded healer. And he's somebody that had to go through a lot of, you know, problems and learn from them.
And then when they become the teacher, they've got so much knowledge from dealing with all of their own problems. But >> when I had issues health-wise, I had a lot of health problems on the bike. Um, you know, some chronic that I still deal with now.
Um, a lot of injuries. >> But instead of just getting help, I I learned. I tried to find the root cause of it.
and I studied and that was what inspired me to study my um you know even do my thesis in in health studies um because I I love learning about health and I see health as being the the fundamental keystone of all performance um but I think there's a lot of people doing that really well from a world tour perspective you look at the teams there's excellent doctors there's excellent psychologists there's excellent chiropractors neurologists but I kind of like being a general generalist and being able to help normal cyclists. Just anyone who's aspiring to be better than they are today on a bike. That's kind of where I find my joy um at this point in my life is sharing that knowledge, teaching, being the wounded healer, but not looking at it from a perspective of let's see if we can get you to tad because it's just not the point.
It's about having cycling um fortify your life with happiness and joy and community without it affecting the very things that you need to survive like work and also your relationships. So for for me, I think all my perspectives and everything that I learned in cycling about balance, about keeping it fun, about not letting it be ego-driven, not let it affect too many things at the same time or one thing too much at a certain time in my life. Um has taught me how to be a good teacher for athletes who are aspiring to be better, whatever level they are.
And um you know I'm very fortunate that I was um you know offered to do this job uh you know as as I'm just retiring from racing. I'd made the decision to retire from racing before I got the job. And >> so is that you're connect you're going to stay connected to the Cyclone world now through this or are you you think you're going to stay involved with some of the brands you've had those relationships with?
uh bits bits and bobs, but my my um the thing that I really want to stick my teeth into, you know, the most next is actually this teaching role. >> And you stay in Jerona. >> Yeah.
Yeah, definitely. Definitely. Yeah.
Been here for a long time and feels good. It's a nice place. Very healthy.
I think it's a good place to have balance. The lifestyle here is very balanced. So, >> blue sky which makes a change from where I'm from.
I mean, I remember one year I was in the UK for like a month in December in November and I just felt a bit blue, you know. >> You want to do you want to tour Britain? >> Yeah.
Yeah. >> That's a big result. >> Well, I kind You've had a lot of big results.
>> Yeah, but not I don't to be honest, I don't even care about them. They They're nice. I enjoy.
>> What do What do you care about though when you look back now? Because it it's done. You know, I'm sure we'll grab a beer some if we're three beers deep and you're like, I'm proudest of that.
What were you proudest of? I heard I won't pass this off as my own because it was actually an interview with David de Formolo um who was a writer. He was on can no he was on UAE at the time when he had the the interviewer changed teams now um and it was an interview before the Jurro and they said what are you expecting what do you want from this Jurro?
and he's like, "Oh, I've already won a stage here." And this was a beautiful emotion and I'm just chasing more emotions like this. And it made me realize when you peel it all back, like I mean kind of anything in life, but if we focus it on cycling, it's like the at its core, one of the reasons why we races, we're chasing big emotions, right?
So that's also when you start to realize that the bad ones are important, too, because they frame how high. >> Yeah. >> The contrast piece.
>> It's like where's the floor? the height's only based off of where the floor is. Um, so if you have roots to hell, you can kind of get to heaven from an emotional standpoint.
So it's like it oscillates and you don't want your oscillations to be too too big. It's kind of dangerous, too. But um, when I think back to cycling, I don't think too often about the bad moments.
There's some I do. um some some relationships where I think there was tension that um I wish there hadn't been at the time. Um but really what I look at is the it's like those fun moments, but what's weird is it's actually just not about the it's not about the winds.
Like there was a moment where we were at um tour of China and the pollution was so bad, right? was like so bad that like this light over here had like a halo around it inside the house and uh all the writers were thinking about protesting and Thomas Dea we didn't realize what he had done but he there were like smoke mask like gas mask like World War II style gas masks in the hotel he stole one and he went onto the start line kind of as like a form of protest with this like gas mask on his face and it's like you know for good or wrong I mean I don't think you're very smart to do that in China to be honest. like it was kind of like playing but um like I got to meet one of the most incredibly out there people in Thomas Deco you know and got to have a lot of time with a really special person and see how they walk through life and a life I could never live but like it's amazing and um yeah I just think for me it was like when I zoom so when I put myself back into it it's like I was I was a pretty scared kid moving to Europe for the first time alone there like 8 to 10 pros living in Jerona.
No one really spoke English when I moved here. It's very different place to what it is now. A lot of time being homesick if I actually think about it.
But what's my overall takeaway from my first year? It was so much fun. Like wow, I got to see so many places.
I got to meet all these people. And then the next year it's the same thing. It's like some years were big crashes, some years were big results.
But like kind of just all pans out for me. It's like, wow, man. God, it was a lot of fun.
But if you asked me today if I would like to have one more day riding in a world to erase, I'd say no thanks. Like, no thanks. It was like I squeezed the sponge out.
I enjoyed it for what it was worth. And I got out before I started hating it or resenting it. It was like I needed that new challenge of gravel.
Um, for me, it was like the perfect mix of mountain biking, road was the next logical step where it was like they meet. It's like the sport was starting. We saw what was happening in the US.
So we knew it was going to happen here. It was like it was like a foretold prophecy. Gravel was taking off in Europe.
So I got in at the right time and again had a lot of fun. Got to race in even more countries that I had never been to. Got to do it the way I wanted to travel with the people who I wanted to.
Not put up with any sports directors that I thought were, you know, just cranky old guys that didn't do enough in their career. So they're still ghosting around to, you know, prove something to themsel. I don't know.
Um, I didn't have to do any of that sort of stuff. It was like it was great. So, the last four years have been superb, but it was like each year it was just learning, having more perspectives on things, seeing more examples of people having problems dealing with it or people not dealing with it and what was the difference.
So, I was just always paying attention to all of this stuff. And now I feel like I'm in a teaching role where I get to share that experience from all my time in the world tour. All my time racing gravel, but most of all that time just paying attention and studying.
So it was it was like knowledge plus experience. Now I feel like I can share the output of that which is understanding. >> Liam Galler has a song.
I think the lyric is in it is you only get to do it once. And it's been a hell of a ride. >> Yeah.
And it's what's strange though is it doesn't feel like it's over because I never felt like the only thing I cared about. And that's a brilliant attitude. I think it's actually a brilliant place to leave the podcast because it's one door closes, another door opens.
Let's see what the next chapter holds. >> Right on. >> Thanks.
Thanks for the chat. Thanks for having me, dude.