Yeah, it's it's kind of weird. It's like I'm so proud of going into yellow but at the same time I didn't win the jersey. Do you know what I mean?
>> Today I chat with Ben Healey medal in the world road race championships and he wore yellow jersey in the tour of France. I >> I got to the back on the descent and everyone let you do that then you know cuz he's not going to attack on the descent. It's super easy to follow but like we knew what was coming and I just hit that found that moment perfectly came with a bit of speed.
They hesitate and b I'm gone. >> Today we talk about the story behind the jersey that didn't feel like victory. A year of work, every detail planned, training, arrow, the perfect moment, all leading to that single attack to put him into yellow.
>> Ben Healey, welcome to Rob Podcast. >> Yeah. Hey, thanks for having me.
>> It's been a while coming. It's been a while coming. Congratulations.
It's been a big year. >> Yeah, it's uh it's been a insane year for me to be honest. Uh yeah, I think this is this is kind of the proseason that you dream of.
when you sat down at the start of the year and you're laying out goals, is it like even close to the goals you laid out or is it like way past that? >> Yeah, I think it's uh I don't know. I think I always like to be quite ambitious ambitious with my goals and uh yeah, it's so often kind of fall short of that as with cycling and it's doesn't always go your way, you know, unless unless you're teddy.
Yeah. Um, yeah. I think really the one that I really wanted was a stage win a tour and yeah, then everything else that has come along with that is just Yeah.
been been mental really. >> So, talk me through that step cuz like you've been a good bike. We were just a bit of reminiscing off air there.
Like we were doing the same races like five years ago and now I have a shitty podcast and you're standing the podium and world's like we've certainly gone different directions. But it's been a mad step up for you. Like I was looking pro cycling stats and maybe I missed some results but like 2024 you the stage win in Tourist Slovenia like a few would there or thereabouts but like what a step up from 24 to 25.
Now I know 23 you won stage of zero your second Armst gold but what a massive step up from 24 to 25 like talk me through what happened in that off season that you came in on a totally new level. Yeah, I think to be honest, I think the moment I made the step up was actually 23. Um, and like you know I had that breakout period in in the Art Dens and and yeah, like with when the stage in in the baby zero, no, not Baby J, real Zero.
But um, yeah, and then I went into 24 with like super high expectations of myself and it kind of all nothing really went right. um like I I didn't really find a level again and I don't know I I was like racing not really very smartly kind of the way that I'd always raced but gotten away with because no one knew who I was and now people knew who I were and I couldn't I needed to to go back to the drawing board and and and rethink out how I'd race you know and then yeah we go to the tour and it's like I'm kind of doing the same mistakes I did in the den still and and yeah it just it just didn't work out is the tour of France you can't just ride people off your wheel which is okay that it's not exactly what I've done but it's like I've just always just kept going kept going kept going until people crack and in the tour to France you can't get away with this especially over over 21 days um so yeah it wasn't 24 wasn't like the ideal season but I actually I sat down in the winter with my coach and like kind of went through like what what's gone wrong here you know and actually I learned so much and yeah I think that's the thing that's kind kicked me on for 25. It's not that I've found like a new level and for sure I've gotten a bit better and like steadily progressed each year, but actually it's really like diving into the mistakes that I've made in the past and like like finding solutions to those and a better way of of going about racing and and trying to race a bit smarter, I guess.
And uh yeah, figuring out I figured out how I need to win and the things that I need to do to put myself in a position to to do that, you know. So, you think the big step up was tactical? >> I think a massive part of it.
Yeah. Actually, >> that's interesting because everyone dives for straight away like, "Oh, Ben Healey's mad fuel strategy or you know the arrow cuz you know you've been rocking that Pac arrow helmet." Pock actually sent me that arrow helmet.
I have it on the shelf behind >> and we do this like Thursday chop ride where we just go full gas for an hour on a Thursday and it's like I can't even bring myself to wear on the Thursday chop. I put it on a couple of times in the mirror. was like, "Man, I know it's fast, but it looks so ridiculous.
" >> Yeah. No, I have to agree with that. But like, yeah, when you win bike races in it, it's uh >> Can't argue with that, can you?
You know, >> you almost want to throw it in the backpack like riding to the start of a race in case anyone sees you in it. >> Yeah. Yeah.
No, for sure. It's uh Yeah, it's got a bit of a bad nickname on the on the bus when you're wearing it, but uh yeah, it's uh it's fast and that's that's what matters in bike racing at the end of the day. But tactically what you're talking about there actually reminds me of when I was chatting to Dan Martin about this and at a point Dan Martin was known for his unpredictability but at a point his unpredictability he almost became predictable >> and he had to go back to the drawing board and go if everyone expects the unpredictable is not unpredictable anymore.
How do I rethink this tactical lens that I view races through now? >> Yeah. No, I think that's a almost like quite similar for me.
You know, it's it's it's like I said, I could get away with the things that I was doing before because everyone would go, "Oh, yeah, just like I mean, I guess I need to I win races by going solo and like by quite some distance." And in the past, people would go, "Oh, you know, he's that's just stupid. Why why is he doing that?
" Like a good a good example of this is uh the the second nationals that I won. I'm attacking like Ryan Woollen and um Sam Bennett, Dylan Corkery and and these guys and I attack him like for the 15th time and then Ryan's like getting fed up with it and this is like 110k to go and he goes I'll just let him go. We'll catch him back, you know, he can't do it solo and then he just never saw me again, you know, but that's only something you get away with once.
Um so yeah, this this is the thing. This is how I used to race and I'd catch people by surprise in that way whereas now I can't do that anymore. So now I need to find a new way to catch people by surprise if you get me.
Um >> like honestly France stage win was like everyone knew that was coming. It was like that move is coming. I'm almost like I'm not letting Ben Healey behind me if I'm in that group cuz you know you're dropping 10 yards off the back of that group and running at them.
Like what does your power look like for those type attacks? Like are how choreographed is it? Are you looking and thinking okay here's my one minute to create separation.
I know what I'm sitting at. And then I know the power I'm at for the next five minutes to stretch the gap and then my cruising speed. >> Yeah.
Well, my I'm not really looking at the power to be honest. It's it's all about catching people by surprise, you know, cuz like I mean people can see like I lose every sprint I do. So if I go to the line, I'm screwed.
But also like that like I don't attack very hard either because I just physically can't. So I need to need to catch people by surprise and you know like if I do that on a climb I need to be stronger than everyone which in that group in the tour like you know the Simon Yates is Quinn Simmons who was on absolute fire that week Matthew Vanderpole you know I'm not I'm not exploding away from these guys and like I'm not just simply dropping them out right on a climb and uh so once I was in that break you know there was a conversation with the DS like you know you need to find me a place where I can go and people aren't going to expect it and where I went was like this kind of like twisty downhill with like a slight little rise like it was nothing but it was just enough that everyone would like slow down and I could come with some speed by behind and he like stam that in and I was like okay I I got to the back on the descent and everyone let you do that then you know cuz he's not going to attack on the descent it's super easy to follow but like we knew what was coming and I just hit that found that moment perfectly came with a bit of speed they hesitate and bam I'm gone you know and then once I got that 20 m then it's just about yeah sticking my head down and and riding like as as efficiently as I can And the thing that I think about is, you know, I can get super air on the flat and and save a bit of energy and yeah, then get real air on in a sense and and like really like rest and recover and then I just whack the climbs as hard as I can and and obviously that needs to be done with in mind how many K or whatever I've got to go cuz you got to pace the effort. But, you know, I feel like that really plays with people as well because then they're like they go, "Oh, we're bringing them back now.
" And then you hit the climb. Okay, we'll just push a little bit and and we'll really bring them in. But then I whack the climb as well and the gap goes out and then that just like completely destroys Yeah.
completely destroy the morale of people. So that's kind of the thing that I'm aiming to do. >> How scientific is the pacing for those solo moves?
Are you leaning into like the WBA ball modeling and we're seeing a lot of the world tour coaches start to figure out. I know Dumbar use this WBA modeling with Vector for his Walta stage win. Or is it old school instinct?
>> To be honest, that's the first time I've heard of that. >> Yeah. Yeah, I don't know.
>> It's actually really cool. It's a Yeah, so so few of the teams are using it yet. I think Vizma are using it.
Uh Arca are using it randomly. Uh a couple of others. But yeah, it's this idea that we've moving away from threshold power into critical power.
And then above critical power, we have W prime. And you can start to figure out like if you had to pace a 60k effort, the fastest way to get to the finish isn't a linear pacing from zero to 60k because you're going to have to ride the climbs harder than that. So you instinctively probably ride the climbs, you know, I don't know, 420, 430 watts up the climbs a little bit less on the downhills.
W Bal starts to figure out how hard you can push on those climbs without blowing. Like you know if you ride a bot in a climb at 600 watts after whatever a minute two minutes you're going to blow your lights. It gives I guess mathematical expression to what you probably intuitively know as a bike rider.
>> Yeah. No. Yeah.
That's that kind of sounds like what what I do anyway, you know. Um but I think that's something that I'm kind of just quite instinctively good at, you know. I've done so many long solos and and stuff like this.
I I know how to pace that effort. But then I guess the thing that that doesn't take into the equation is like actually how far are the people behind you and who's chasing you, you know? It's yeah, like in that instance like I I got to a climb like halfway through that and um who was it?
Quinn Simmons and Michael Stoer, they were coming back at me, you know, and then like that's a point where okay, maybe it's pacing out the window, then you just got to stay your head over that climb. But then you got to refine that rhythm again, you know? Um so yeah, it's uh I think that's something that I'm pretty good at.
Even for a TT, you know, so many guys are like like stuck to a pace and pan, but um I never I never asked for one, you know, because I just I really try and feel it and you know, every day is different and and every day is different to what you can do. >> Arrow is obviously pretty important in those in the type of rider that you are. How much have you leaned into arrow?
Obviously the UCI have come and stamped on some of your arrow gains this year with the changing the bars, helmets banned for next season, but how much a testing have you done and then how much, you know, sneaky gains do you still think there is to be made in that area? >> Yeah, honestly I haven't really done too much a testing just, you know, it's yeah, you need a a big budget team to kind of get a lot of support in that and uh yeah, that's not something that we have like infinite resources to test unfortunately. Um, and yeah, we're looking to do more and more of that now.
But I think it's something that I've kind of like naturally leaned into and just kind of trying to find my own gains and and do what I can where I can. And yeah, that's a massive approach help from my coach like Jacob Tipper. He's super into that.
And uh, yeah, it's always taking tips from him really and and doing his suggestions, but then also yeah, thinking about it myself and just trying to maxim maximize everything that I know works, but I guess I don't have solid data to always pro back that up and prove it. But yeah, ma arrow is just is massive, you know, and and just doing everything as as best I can and uh try and being as as efficient as possible, especially when you're trying to ride so solo is is pretty important. >> I think there's more aero affordable stuff coming down the pipeline.
I chated Wahoo, who obviously sponsors EF as well, chat to the CEO the other day and I my question to him was kind of like, you remember when you used to get a iPhone and then the one after that just had so many more cool things on it? Like the first one was just a phone, then the next one's like a phone on a camera, and then the next one's like all your music and [ __ ] Like, wow, this is unreal. And then at some point, I don't know where it was, like iPhone 9 to iPhone 10, there's just no difference.
They're all the same now. And I was just like, our head units that basically like, you know, how many more data screens do I need? How many more maps do I need?
They're all basically pretty cool. If you have a Wahoo or if you have a Hammerhead, they're all kickass right now. But he actually disagreed.
He thinks the new innovations are coming around arrow that Wahoo have that builtin arrow sensor now on the front of it and they're going to start developing in the next few years actually useful tools for that. >> Mhm. Yeah.
I mean that would be yeah massive gain if we can if we can get that going. you know, it's uh yeah, the the more accessible and easier it is and uh yeah, the the more fine tuning you can do, you know, cuz uh it's it's when we're so busy, you're doing races all year and then like you get to the offseason and to be honest, like the last thing you want to be doing is spending another weekend at a win tunnel. So like if you can just do it on the road and uh yeah, with a wahoo, then yeah, that would be flipping awesome to be honest.
Is there like whispers in the bunch who's doing the most a testing? Like this because the kind of breakaway analogy you were given, so much of that in my head is psychological. Like you're pushing when they're pushing to kind of crack them.
But if there's a rider that I know, look, I'm doing 370 watts and he's the same weight as me and he's only doing 340, that starts to crack me a bit. >> Yeah. Yeah.
I mean, uh, yeah. I guess it's it's you've still got to do it, haven't you? Do you know what I mean?
It's like no matter what the other person's doing, you've still got to you still got to push to get them. But yeah, I I try not to think about the what's too much and just it's all about it's all about feeling and uh if I'm feeling good then I'll push a bit harder and if not so good then uh yeah, there's not a lot you can do. >> Yeah.
Yeah, fair. Uh talk to me about worlds. Uh crazy insane.
You know, I was so close to sticking an eachway bet on you. I was out on the group spin on certainly >> not allowed to tell me this. >> And the lads were like uh who do you reckon?
I was like I reckon Ben Healey for an each way cuz the bookies pay five deep for each way here. And I was like >> oh yeah. And there I absolutely got I didn't could have split the money with you.
>> See, you wouldn't believe the amount of people that come up to me and go, "I'm sticking a bet on you. Is that a good idea?" I'm like, "You can't tell me this.
" You know, like >> I stick your hair on you, mate. You know, like like in the Olympics like this massive like the big bigger than antid-doping with the course about betting, you're like, "Okay, you can get in real trouble for this," you know? So, >> oh, can you actually?
Yeah. >> Yeah. Yeah.
like and the rider it's like you're not even allowed to say if you're injured on your social media or anything because it can influence the bare market. It's like >> it's it's mental when you start digging into it. So, uh yeah.
Well, don't tell me that. >> It's wild though how much like access say if you were like I know I've had Dirk Freel on the podcast from Training Peaks. Like if you were little bit of a nefarious software owner like that, you could dig into Reuters data and go, "Oh, Ben's on a flyer this weekend.
" cuz everyone's sharing like their Whoop data and [ __ ] from onto their training peaks as well now. It's like, oh, he hasn't slept well. Like money's not on him tonight.
>> Yeah. Yeah. It's I'm sure if if if they did you won a big bet and they didn't want to pay out, they're definitely find some way, you know.
Um just hope that doesn't get me in trouble. >> My uncle actually won a bet back like 20 30 years ago. Massive like accumulator on horses in London >> and he went around to collect it the next morning.
The bookies are closed down. >> Convenient. H to Worlds is uh Ireland's best results.
Kelly obviously 87 I think Ro sorry Roach 87. I think Kelly pulled a bronze in 89. >> It's like it's been a long time.
How did that happen? Like how much of a you know I know national team at the best of times it's it can be not the most cohesive unit because you only come together a few times a year. Like how much of a solo mission versus a team effort was that?
Honestly, it was a a massive team effort and yeah, if you switch on a TV with with 50k to go because it's such a hard race, you wouldn't really see that. But to be honest, like yeah, Ireland after after last year were just like incredible. Like the support uh Sen Island like gave gave to us this year was was yeah, insane to be honest.
And I think it was a a big logistical challenge just just to be there, you know, and thankfully EF helped out helped out with that as well. But yeah, the on the on the ground island were just just incredible all week. And then in the race as well, like you know, we've got some strong riders now, you know, and >> getting legit now.
>> Yeah, like seriously is. And and like you look at Euros under 23 and junior as well, like with Gaffne and and the other Rafity, it's uh yeah, it's going to be exciting times to be honest. Um but yeah on in in Rwanda is was all about conserving energy you know with with the altitude and uh yeah the amount of elevation meters it was just yeah such a nutritional world and and to be honest the thing that would really sapp everyone was was the air pollution there which was just like through the roof you know and this was just like I think this was the big battle for for everyone to be honest and yeah it was it was all for me it was all about just racing as conservatively as possible.
And unfortunately that's not the most exciting way to race. But I knew, you know, if I try and follow Tad on Mount Kagali where everyone knew he was going to go, he was like, I'm just going to I'm just going to blow up. And you see all the guys that that tried to follow him like eventually they did, you know, they they just blew up.
So really it was the the first nine laps I was like to the guys, you know, just get me as easy as possible to to the bottom of the two climbs on the circuit and then I can just sandbag. And that's what I did. And uh yeah, I would rolling their wheel up to the up to the climb, getting their f top 10 wheels, and by the top of the climb, I was at the back of the pelaton and you know, like my average power for the world is probably like it's not impressive at all, you know, because I just rode such an such an efficient race and that that's why I had uh some some gas in in the final and and to be honest, that was all down to down to the team.
Like if they weren't doing that for me, then I wouldn't have been able to do that myself. So who'd you got it was you, Rory Towns, end Eddie, Ryan >> Mullen and Raferty. >> Rafity.
Oh, darn as well. And that's good. Yeah.
It's like and you think that didn't go there like you know Jamie's had a super end of the season at this >> you know Sam is Sam obviously not a great course for him >> but like there's a lot stepping up to world tour as well now. Dinky good lad. >> Exactly.
>> H yeah there's some talent coming through and then you know you've set Woody coming up. You say Gaffne coming up. >> Yeah.
really good lads coming through. >> Exactly. It's going to be exciting times to be honest.
So I think uh yeah, championship teams are going to be pretty hard to get into in the future >> on Kaggali when Pogy went. It's like okay the Remco won. Nothing wrong with his saddle if you watch that footage.
>> Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.
Yeah. You you see when Tal goes and he can't go he definitely gets in a bit bit of a tiss. But it's like here's my theory on it, right?
So he's saying his saddle slipped, but if you watch the footage when he attacked you on Kaggali, what does he do? He gets out of the saddle and accelerates. >> But then when Tad goes, everyone around them's getting out of the saddle to try and accelerate and follow.
Remco with a supposedly slipping seat post stay. >> First thing I'm doing with my saddle slipping is getting out of the saddle. >> Yeah, exactly.
And then you're doing the same power anyway, aren't you? So yeah, I don't know. I think it was definitely his head.
And yeah, after the race, you know, it was his mechanic, who is also his cousin, outed him about his second bike, saying, "Oh, we don't know. We don't know what's wrong with it." So yeah, I mean, uh, yeah, mate, that is what you will, but >> but to be fair, he deserved that cuz he tried to troll a mechanic under the bus like with, you know, banging the saddle and stuff and the mechanic came out like, I don't know what's wrong with him.
>> Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.
I know to be honest like what what are you going to achieve by banging your saddle? Like if it's a millimeter out, you're gonna just going to make it worse, aren't you? fat moves.
But um yeah, all I have to say is he was flipping strong, you know, like when we was in a group with him, he was just towing us around. Like we're giving him the minimum amount possible and he was just like an absolute train, you know? It's just I just think the this acceleration TA has, he just he just can't match it.
But then after the time trial, he's he's just as strong, you know? >> Yeah. Like you see Europeans when Tad went like Remco can follow for a bit, but then it's just like he takes that cyanide tablet and it's just like >> Yeah, exactly.
He just uh yeah, he uh he can't face face losing. He's he's a winner, isn't he? You know, and uh I mean, he's been been touted to be the next big thing since he was a junior when he was just riding people out his wheels.
And I think he uh he definitely struggles that that someone's better than him, you know? >> Like is it like these guys are beyond superstars? Like there's a a pretty good argument that maybe Puggy's the greatest rider ever.
Like it's definitely a two- horse race with Puggy and Merks. What's it like to be in the race beside these guys? Like how good is Pogy?
>> Yeah, he just unbelievable to be honest. Like uh yeah, there's a reason why he wins solo every single time and he looks fresh when he crosses the line. So it's um yeah, you know, I I I look at it as an example of like so this year Larad 4 and a half minute effort.
I did like 495 watts at 62 kilos and you put 15 seconds into me, you know, and like pe people I've seen people look at race and go like why is no one else trying? And like that's how easy it makes it look. It's like I am flipping trying, you know?
It's just like he's just that much better than us. And it's is it's is yeah it's honestly it's it's pretty demoralizing but at the same time at least like he is in contention to be the greatest of all time you know like at least he has got that title and like you know he's that much better for a reason. It's not just that we're a bad generation you know >> I think psychologically getting bronze and getting silver are two very different experiences.
Like if you're getting silver you're going home a little pissed thinking oh what could have been. If you're getting bronze, you're like, "What could have been? I could have got four and I could have came away with nothing.
" Two very different mental experiences were just separated by a couple of inches on height on the podium. >> Yeah, I mean I was over I mean we're bronze to be honest. Um yeah, I I was really struggling in the week before and um yeah, just with like the the air quality and everything and yeah, to to finish on a podium in the end like I honestly didn't expect it.
So, uh, yeah, to cross the line and and be on the podium with with them two was, yeah, flipping special, to be honest. And, yeah, just makes me hungry. Like, I do like the dream is the rainbow jersey, you know, and it's so you've got to try and beat Ty.
But, uh, yeah, I'm uh I'm getting there. So, you never know. >> Yeah, he needs you need someone to take him out.
The only way to beat this lot at the moment. >> Yeah, unfortunately. Do you see yourself as one of the best writers in the world now, which like you are, you just came through it in the world, but is that a difficult, you know, people talk about having imposter syndrome?
Like, do you see yourself as on a par with Puggy and Remco and, you know, Scale Mosa and these guys who are, you know, contesting the biggest one day races? >> Yeah, I find it really weird to be honest. And I I've always felt like like a bit of a dark horse and an underdog in races.
And like I think that image around me is changing and and people tell me that but like like for myself I don't actually feel like that which is weird you know. Um but I need to accept that because also like then people treat me differently in races now and uh expect different things from me. So yeah, it's something that I'm learning and uh yeah, I need to yeah, I'm coming to terms with it, I guess, >> because the hierarchy in the bunch is still quite it's still quite old school and traditional like you know teams that as a viewer you might look and go oh cool they're all world they all have equal respect for each other but then you know I'll be chatting to Mullen or something and I'll chat him like you know basically how's work going and he's like you know I'm just basically riding up and saying like you're [ __ ] get out of the way you're riding for like arcade Hey, what are you doing in my way?
You shouldn't be here. And it's like there's a clear peck and order and a food chain inside the bunch. Are you now getting to the point where it's like, "Oh [ __ ] it's Ben Healey.
Let him in." >> Yeah. Yeah.
I think with Ryan, that's just because he's bigger than everyone else and could do that. You know, >> I'm smaller than everyone else. So, there's not as much getting away with that.
But, uh, yeah. No, 100%. Like I I I'm definitely starting to feel like there's a bit of a not quite a red carpet rolled out for me.
But you know like in Luxembourg which is my first race after after the tour I was like after the first stage I like said to the DS like this was positioning was easy. Like I didn't even I didn't even have to try and I was at the front you know and I think that was more more of the way that people were treating me rather than me getting better in positioning you know. So >> yeah self prophecy I guess though because you're going to get better position now into key points especially in the Ardans.
>> Yeah. No exactly. And uh I mean I think positioning is always something I've been quite good at, but it's like you have to take big risks for it.
And I guess now it's just there as the odd person who's going to fight you a bit less, which just then makes it easier, doesn't it? >> You know, I'm genuinely proud of my little man cave, my escape, my safe place. It's not glamorous by any means.
It's crammed into the spare room in our apartment with bikes stacked in the corner, boxes everywhere, and the smell of chain lube is just kind of hanging in the air. But in that corner, that's where the work gets done. That's where I switch off from everything else and I lock in on my training.
And the centerpiece of it all, it's the Wahoo Kicker Bike Pro. Honestly, it's the ultimate man cave. The thing just feels alive under you.
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I know what it's like to wake up, look out the window, see wind, rain, and sideways hail and think, "Do I really want to be out there today?" And that's where the kicker comes in. You can get a worldass session done right there in your safe little space, no matter what's happening outside.
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Wahoo building the better athlete in all of us. Pickox's had a big step up this year as well. Like last year, I probably would have said if you just looked strictly at his role Pomeirez pro cycling stats, maybe one of the most overrated riders in the bunch if you didn't talk about this crazy talent he has multi-disiplinary, but now this year he seems to fulfill it again like fulfill the expectation that people had of me stepping up to really be one of the top lads.
That bracket of top lads that just win, they must win 80% of the races. Is that where you want to be seeing yourself now in that group of lads who can consistently be there or thereabouts in the biggest one day races? >> Yeah, definitely.
And uh yeah, I I think it's always going to be hard for me to to to be that rider that that wins all the time because obviously I'm I'm not the best in the sprint. Um and you know, like it's not that easy to just win solo all the time. You know, you've got to be or for me at least I've got to be on on really my peak shape.
And yeah, I feel like that takes me takes me a second to get to, you know, and I need a few races also to to get there. Um, but yeah, I think I think when I when I target an event, then I definitely believe I can I can be a part of that top echelon. >> What's the conversations with your coach around the sprint, is there talk that like let's go away, let's hit a big block of sprint training, let's hit the gym, maybe we're never going to win a bunch of sprints, but can we win out of a group of four?
>> Is that a conversation? But we we honest we think it's a balancing act to be honest with me because it's like if if we go all in on the sprint training and all the gym and all this stuff and it's like is that going to take away from what I'm actually good at and that's something that we've always been afraid of and like this winter we did go away and like really try and like make my sprint better and it got a lot better and like it it did but it's it still needs to go quite a bit more to start winning sprints I guess in the final but you know like uh yeah I I've never really felt like I've got to final of the race and even being able to sprint, you know, and okay and lies this year I got absolutely dusted by Chicone, but he's actually quite good enough, >> but you know, like I felt like I was competitive against him even though he lost, but so it's like I feel like even that was a step in the right direction. So yeah, maybe with a bit more of that and a bit more work and yeah, some technique stuff and gym and yeah, more more sessions focused towards that then for sure maybe maybe it will get better.
But yeah, like I say, it's just I I want to stick to what I'm good at. And um yeah, it it also makes racing quite simple for me, you know. It's there's no there's no, oh, do I do this or do I do that?
It's like I know I've got to drop everyone and win solo, you know, and uh yeah, I kind of like that to be honest. Yeah, I guess it's mentally refreshing because and it's a good calculation to make because even if you improve your sprint, you know, you add 200 watts to your sprint, are you still 400 watts away from because a lot of fast lads are getting to the end of these are like you Vanderpole, W uh Pogy, Pickock, they're all fast guys. >> Yeah.
And I'm I'm leagues away from them, you know. So the amount of work I'd have to get there, then it's like Yeah. Is it going to ruin what I'm actually good at?
And and that's always the worry. So yeah, it's um yeah, it's a bit of a dilemma and uh yeah, it's not like we're just forgetting about it and going, "Oh, no, it just is what it is." We're definitely trying to improve that because, you know, there are people that can do both, but yeah, it's just not natural for me.
So, yeah, it's just finding that balance. >> How do you figure out race weight? This conversation I was having with a mate this morning because I was chatting to Yonas Abrahamson on the podcast last week.
That's a mad story. He went from 58 kg to 78 kg. Like who's sitting around a 58 kilograms as a bike rider thinking I'll stick on 20 kg and it's going to make me better.
But how do you start to figure out where your best weight is? I know you're working the guys at Hex's Sam and David Dawn, but is it just experimentation and you going I actually my sensations are better at this weight regardless of power to weight calculations. >> Yeah.
So I think for me I've kind of got a bit of a yeah different perspective on it cuz I've like as a junior and under 23 I didn't step on a scale like I just didn't think about it. I didn't like just it's all about like tracking food and doing everything perfect right now. And like I I just didn't have any understanding about nutrition or weight or or anything like this.
So, and I'm actually really grateful for that because I just ate when I was hungry and I ate when I felt necessary and I loaded for races and didn't even think twice about what that would do to my weight, you know? >> And okay, I look back now and I was like, I'm chubby, you know? I'm like looking at myself and I'm like sometimes people put whip up pictures of me and like there's like this classic one in me and like Wiggins gear and I'm like doing a doing a classic somewhere and I'm just like you know like just look like a chick with full of mouthful you know.
Um, but yeah, at the time I had no like no idea that I was like maybe overweight or like overweight for yeah my race weight and it was only really when I turned professional then it was like okay we're going to start working on this and like you know now you're going to try and like track some food and lose weight the right way and yeah that was like a big learning curve for me and honestly I think that was one of the biggest reasons why I had such a big step up from my first year pro to my second year pro in in 23 because I managed to lose like 4 kilos and like kept the same power because I was just carrying a bit of extra weight before. Um, and so yeah, and then since then it's kind of been a process because I actually managed to get to like a really low weight then and I've never really achieved that again. And last year like I was definitely stressed about that.
And yeah, it's not a very like I was trying to do everything absolutely perfectly and not really listening to my body about like when I was hungry or stuff like this. And yeah, that I think I paid the price for that last year. But now this year I kind of again just like when we sat down I was like what's what's gone wrong in 24 and how can we improve that in 25 and it's just be less stressed about it >> you know like if I'm a kilo or two heavier >> because like like not for being stupid you know like if that's just because >> yeah things like maybe one day I've been a bit hungry and I need to fuel properly for training then then I'll do that you know and if that means I'm going to be a bit extra weight when I'm when I'm at a race then you know what just don't stress about it and honestly this approach is just like it's so much more refreshing, you know?
I'm not like picking rice off the off the off a plate because it's 20 grams overweight or something, you know? I'm just like I'm being calculated but a lot more general at the same time, you know, to kind of take that stress away and yeah, just let it be as it as it is and following a guideline but not being like strict with it, you know. >> Yeah.
because we can measure so much in cycling but like you used the word there a few times in this conversation like stress we still don't do a very good job of measuring that and maybe if we look back in 10 years time and go oh actually we have a really good way of measuring stress the writers who were creating low stress environments for themselves that was actually much much more important than the 20 grams extra of rice >> yeah no 100% I I really believe that like yeah it's stress is only a negative emotion you know and it's like it does weird things and Uh yeah, the more you stress about it, the worse you're going to go in my experience. And yeah, it's also the same when I put put pressure on results, you know, like if you stress about results, you're only going worse. So, or for me, in my experience at least.
And yeah, same goes for weight. If I'm if I'm a kilo overweight, then I'm not going to stress about it and it just is it it is what it is and I'm going to do the best of what I got. So who's the team around you at the moment that like your your close circle of you know nutritionists, aerodynamics like what does that look like this performance team around Ben Healey to strike for this world title hopefully in the next you know three to five years.
>> Yeah so yeah EF is obviously a big big part of that in general. Um but yeah the the guys that I work really close with and is is my coach Jacob Tipper. like I said he yeah I've been with him for for 10 years now and he's actually coming on board on board with EF as well and >> yeah he's uh yeah he's been a massive part massive part of my career to be honest and yeah just great coach good relationship and just understands the way that I work you know and yeah his coaching methods seem to really suit me as well so yeah it's just uh yeah super super good fit and it's it's worked up until now and then yeah this this year I started working super close with a with a different nutritionist and that the team brought on called Anna Carella.
I think it's a Yeah, that's her name. I can't pronounce very well, but she's called Anna and she's absolutely amazing as well. So, also just gets the way that I work and and also takes this like athlete first, no stress mentality and just yeah, she's she's just really really great communicator, which I think is is super important in the world of sport.
And uh yeah, to be honest, those are the main two people that I work with and um who look after me on on like a day-to-day basis. And daytoday training wise, you're you still based out of your own >> and Pandora. >> Oh, you're going by tax break, baby.
>> Yeah. >> Contract must have got renegotiated somewhere. >> Yeah, exactly.
No, I've been there for a couple years now and uh yeah, it's just just a good place, isn't it? So, good mountains. So, >> less of the community are here though.
>> Yeah, I don't know. It's uh so the way that I look at it, okay, I had a great time in Jerona and uh it definitely served its purpose. Um, but I really see it as like a as like a uni town for cyclist.
>> Yeah, definitely like that. >> It it really has like and like it don't get me wrong like I I loved it there and it was really great but like I needed a break from from Jerona and for me Andor was the next best place you know so yeah it just made sense to go there and uh yeah I'll always always look back at Jonah fondly but I was it was definitely ready for time for me to move on from it. It's a bit of a spring break vibe when you go over there.
>> Yeah, exactly. And and to be honest, like when when you first move abroad and everything's scary, then like it's the perfect place, you know, because there's always a familiar face and a community out there. Um but yeah, sometime like I felt I felt like I just needed to to settle down a bit and uh yeah, grow up, I guess.
>> Who's your training partners up in Andor? Yeah, I'm still figuring that out to be honest because I I haven't really been there been there super long and we spend so much time away training. But yeah, the guy that I train with the most for sure, Harry Harris Sweeney up there.
So, but now uh yeah, Archer Ryan also moving up there full-time now. So, I'm I'm sure I'll be out on a lot of lot of rides with him. >> Little Irish contingent.
When when you're drawing your mind back to, you know, we started the conversation talking about Ross Mill, but that's, you know, that's not the beginning of your story. You're on the bike many years before that. who was the formative figures in creating Ben Healey, the bike rider.
>> Yeah, I think my my dad's a massive part of part of why I ride a bike. Um yeah, he's the one that first got me on it and yeah, he was passionate about cycling and kind of just yeah, nudged me in that direction, you know. Um took me to to local track and uh got me into it via that and yeah, then later down the line started taking me to races and stuff like this and yeah, if it wasn't for him, for sure I wouldn't be a cyclist.
How does he deal with the new fame that's coming? I was chatting to Chris O'alahan the other day who's Oshin O' Callahan's dad and obviously Oshin's if anyone's not following the mountain bike saying you know Oshin's rockstar one of the best downhill mountain bikers in the world at the moment and his dad trying to I can actually feel the pain of his dad on it because he's like you know you want to stay out of the kid's business but you also it's your son and you need to be a wee bit protective at times because as you get more fame and as you start to accumulate a bit more wealth that goes with that you know there is people that try and insert themselves into your life that aren't positive for you both as an athlete? >> How difficult is that to navigate for your dad?
>> Yeah, I think I think he's he's pretty good at it to be honest. Like my dad's just a super chill guy and uh yeah, goes with the flow and uh honestly I think he's just just so happy and and over the moon for me, you know, and uh yeah, I think as as long as I'm never never making decisions based based around just purely money and I do everything for for the love of it and uh yeah, that's that's all he asked of me, I think. And um yeah, it was just yeah, I'm just super proud that that I can can yeah pay him back for all the weekends he's driven me around the country and and abroad to taking me to bike races to be honest because if it wasn't for him then like I said I definitely wouldn't be here and yeah I was it was such a special moment when I went to yellow cuz I I flew my parents out and they were there at the start to to watch me and uh >> yeah this this was this was a a really really cool moment.
>> Did you get to keep the bike with all the wee bits of yellow trimming and all on it? Uh, working on it. >> That's got to go in your garage or somewhere in the house or something cool.
>> Yeah, I hope so. But it's doing the rounds of like uh corporate things at the moment. So, uh, I haven't seen the second one of them.
>> Yeah, we'll see. We'll see. But, uh, yeah, it's kind of weird cuz it's like I'm so proud of going into yellow, but at the same time, I didn't win the jersey.
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>> If I was tad right now and I see I saw pictures of me but like you know like if I had like the you know the famous Lance image with like they sat on a sofa like the seven jerseys behind him people was like you going to like frame a jersey. I was like I don't know if I really can do that you know. So but yeah it would that would be a hard image would it?
Sit on the sofa with the the jersey behind me and bike on the wall. But yeah um yeah maybe one day I'll win it. You never know.
I love that image of Lance line the sofa with the seven jerseys. Benji who does Lantern Rouge podcast photoshopped this picture and he's like fixed it for you mate. It's just Lance line the sofa with seven empty frames behind.
>> It's like >> oh no >> classic H world is it if you get there eventually will it be with EF? How long you in EF for and what's contract situation looking like? >> Yeah, I'm still uh contract for next year.
um that I signed two years ago. So yeah, that's uh that's where I'm at right now really. And uh yeah, for sure there's a lot of interest now.
So just yeah, playing the market I guess a bit and um >> Andrew life now is >> Yeah, exactly. Uh see see what's out there. So but yeah, no, it's uh yeah, I'm just in a pretty nice position at the moment and if I if I want to stay then then I think I can stay.
But uh yeah, also it's it's good to see what's out there at the end of the day. You mentioned you h the team haven't and you haven't really invested in arrow and marginal gains. Is that a plan for the offseason or is it just more chill, get the stress down and compounding more the same?
Yeah, I mean uh it's it's something that I'm always pushing for, you know, and uh I think especially with my coach coming on board now as well, he can he can kind of do that side of things and yeah, it's always um yeah, it's it's always yeah, just trying to get the best out best out of all the sponsors and all the team and for sure they do a great job, but you know, it's it's such a personal thing. Um yeah, you know, everything's got to be specific to to to an individual and when you a team of 30 guys, it's quite hard to do. Um, so yeah, I think uh maybe now I'll have a bit more bit more leeway in that sort of side of things and um but yeah, we'll we'll we'll see how that goes.
>> Yeah, it feels like 2024 was a real fork in the road moments where you know, not that you could have dropped out of a world tour. I think you're always going to have a good World Tour career for a number of years, but it wasn't destined that you were going to be one of the stars at the sport. Now it's like, oh [ __ ] he had the yellow jersey got hurt in the worlds.
It almost looks more likely that you're going to be one of the big stars next year than you're not going to be one of the big stars next year. That's a wild spot to be in. Like, >> yeah, sounds like a lot of pressure to me.
But, uh, yeah. No, it's also pretty cool. And it's, yeah, it's what I work so hard for, you know.
So, yeah, if I can live up to that, then uh, yeah, brilliant. >> That's good, man. Congratulations.
Like, you're living, you know, what, you know, so many of us, especially around Ireland, set out riding a bike. Everyone dreams of wearing a yellow jersey. you're eight years old and you're racing your dad and pretending you have a yellow jersey and you got to pull it off.
And I think, you know, in a small country, you're carrying those dreams for a lot of the generations gone and it's boring a lot of kids. Like I look at my nephew and he's like two years old and I'm sitting down watching the tour of France with him and I'm like, "Hey, like there's Ben Haley." Like, you know, I used to race against him the whole time.
It's like it's like it's cool like >> Yeah. Yeah. No, that's exactly exactly the things you want to hear, you know?
It's uh Yeah. just hope it gets more people on the bikes and racing and uh I think there's really some some good times to come in Psychon Island and uh yeah, it starts at the grassroots, doesn't it, at the end of the day. So, yeah, I mean the dream would be for the Ross to come back and and me being able to go race it with the with the national team, you know, um yeah, someone can pull that off and that would be amazing because, you know, it's Yeah, I owe so much to Cycling Island and and Cycling in Ireland.
So, any way I could pay that back would be would be awesome. Yeah, I think obviously for anyone who doesn't know what we're talking about, the Ross is kind of like our tour of Ireland, but it's dropped down from UCI 2.2 to more of a domestic race.
It's actually just like a longer Ross Moon now because it's 5 days and it's the standard. Yeah, look kind of like Ross Moon when you won it. So, it's still like a decent standard, but I don't think it'll be fully equipped for you to come back and just annoy it next year.
>> Yeah, maybe not. But, uh yeah, you know, like the the Ross is such an iconic race and it's had some Yeah. pretty pretty great winners as well, hasn't it?
You know, so >> no, I've never never got to become a man in a ros. So, >> actually, because I'm debating I'm like, "Oh, should I do I'm I'm stuck on nine done and I'm like, do I No one gives a [ __ ] that I do 10 or nine." Like, I know no one cares about that.
No one's going, "Oh, it' be cool if you done 10, but I don't know. I like the idea of finishing on a round number." So, >> yeah.
Yeah. No, you've got to do that, don't you? You're so close.
You know, you've done nine already. What's one more? >> Yeah.
Know. Yeah. What you think?
Then you smash yourself dinky nails into a park car or something. >> Yeah. Yeah.
>> Yeah. Part of the fun. >> Yeah.
Yeah. No, we'll get you back. We'll get you back on a road man Ross team.
>> Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.
Yeah. No, because it's Yeah. This is the thing.
I always feel guilty when when I can't come to nationals as well cuz you know that that that's my option. But yeah, it's it's I think now the way that cycling is, it's always a choice between like, you know, performing at the tour or performing at nationals, which >> yeah, it it always hurts a little bit when I can't when I can't come back, but uh yeah, it's uh yeah, it's that on the tour, unfortunately, I think. So, >> don't worry, everyone's politing.
You don't show up. It's like coming 100k. >> Yeah.
Yeah. But, uh no, I think that would be it'd be pretty cool though, you know, do the tour on national jersey. I probably have to make it work one year, but yeah, it's it's quite difficult to do.
>> You know what you should do? Actually, it' be cool. Uh I remember years ago Armstrong came to Ireland and he done this just like a ride for everyone around the park in Dublin >> and it was like thousands of people showed up.
Like I guarantee you if you like a narrow ride around the Phoenix park in Dublin, >> you got 5,000 people or something that show up for it. That would be >> Yeah, that would be cool. Yeah, maybe maybe we'll have to put something like that into the works.
>> Ben, appreciate you. I know you're racing this weekend, finishing out season at illia. Best luck in that and then yeah, enjoy the offseason.
>> Yeah, brilliant. Uh, thanks for having me.