Terry Pagachcha might have the highest V2 max of any Tour to France winner ever. A new study just came out and it's shown that Pagacha might have a V2 max of 96, which would make him physiologically the most impressive Grand Tour rider of all time. Today I sit down with Andy McGra.
He's just brought out a book called Unstoppable, a profile autobiography of T Paga. Today we try find out what makes Tare Pagatcha Tagacha. Welcome to the podcast Andy McGrath.
Andy, welcome back to the Road Podcast. >> Good to be here. It's been a while.
>> Yeah, we're going to talk paga. We're going to talk the goat. I think that's maybe where we'll start actually because it's the old pub question.
Who's the greatest rider ever? Is it Pagacha? Is it Merks?
I I think it's yeah it's one thing I'd love to hear your thoughts on who you think is better but I think actually what's more interesting to help people with their pub debates is do you have like a conceptual framework to compare two riders from two different eras where we can avoid that era bias like I talked to my dad he's like oh merk's no doubt you know talk to my little nephew oh no it's clearly puggy >> why you think the role is is the best like not those two I'm I'm only joking. Um >> he went hard on them. >> No, no, no, no.
He's the third best probably. But um >> it depends on how far apart the eras, the decades are. Firstly, like you know, comparing indign to Pagata is maybe a little bit easier than going back to Merks.
I think a few things that haven't changed that much are monuments and grand tours. Even though monuments weren't really a thing when Merks was around, but there was there were still some of the most prestigious races. There's no doubting that.
So that's maybe the most reliable metric. Uh even even though during the book writing I like even tours to France are not like for like I discovered one tour the Merks one there were 28 stages like that's like 25% more than the modern tour, right? which people kind of forget like >> so also what like actually this tangent but um Cavendish winning the sorry equaling the tour stage record of Merks he actually had fewer opportunities to do that than Merks did.
So not many people mention that but yeah like you got to look at everything you got to look at personality panache long longevity is a big one and Pagasha isn't quite there yet but I I think he will be compared to Merk's caliber of opposition you know like for example Pogy winning the 2024 Jirro incredible dominant but aole wasn't there wasn't uh all the biggest hitters weren't there. I'm not saying he, you know, it was a bad win, but that comes into it. >> Yeah.
Um it's just everything you know the the depth of the field is is is a big argument for Pagata or the biggest maybe you know because Slovenia wasn't even a country when Merch was racing you know um and you only had the heartland of European of Europe and and their bike races competing and yeah the talent pool was not nearly as deep as it as it is now you know >> I guess counter point to it is the sheer number of races that Merks has won. I I can't remember someone online uh one of those back in the day lads, but like how many times Paul Got need to win a year for the next x number of years to equal Merx's record. And it's ridiculous.
It's like he needs to be racing till he's 50 with the same level of dominance or more. >> Yeah, I I actually looked into it for the for the book and uh Pogy only averages 55 race days a year. That's what I worked out.
And Merks's hallowed win number is 525. So yeah, he he'd have to win every race for 10 years Padra to beat him. I mean, he's not going to beat him.
He's not even going to race 525 pro races in his career. Although I think their numbers massaged by some crits. >> Yeah.
And it's also what are we calling a race as well? Like if I start adding up how many times I've won the local club league, like can I put uh like my card in the ring here for being the greatest rider ever? Well, there are some of those races like exhibition races in there for Merks.
But still, there's no denying. No one's going to beat it. Like, >> if he has a post tour criterium win in there, I'm out.
I'm poggy. >> Yeah, it's it's absolutely crazy. But they raced much more.
>> You know, they didn't know what burnout was back in 1970s. You know, they didn't have sports psychologists. >> Sport science was like a stake before the race and a stake afterwards for Eddie Murk.
So we could we could go down a different road as to why they were so fatigue resistant. But I think that's a conversation for another day. >> I think it it is a really fun conversation though, especially after a few points.
But it's kind of like this is this is not me sitting on the fence, but it's kind of like to say Poggy's better now would be like calling a winner of a bike race with like 80k to go. >> Yeah. >> Which you can do with Pagata in a breakway actually, but otherwise you can't.
>> Well, unless you're the ASO, you can call it like, oh no, we're blowing it up with 50k to go. It does landslide, you know, like that burnout tour. >> Uh, so when you were researching this book, like every I think every lad has this romantic idea of, oh, I have a book in me someday, and you know, I wouldn't even begin to know where to start.
It's it's maybe a tright question, but where do you start on a story like this? Do you go right back to the beginning of Pogatcha's origins as a junior underage rider, his family, or how did you how did you think about framing this story with a beginning, a middle, and an end? Um, you kind of, it's a bit like, you know, these crime documentaries or these crime dramas where like imagine you're a policeman or like detective and you have a suspect and you put his photo on the wall.
The research, you know, starts with like drawing all these strands out of, you know, the people closest to and then there's a second circle and then a third tier. And I'm doing this crazy intense research of trying to work out, you know, who are the main people, who are the people that know him, who are closest to him, who who are his teammates. Um, and I'm not just trying to tell his life story or his cycling career story or even the story of all his greatest wins.
It's kind of trying to get new insight to like and it it can't just be race reports either like >> talking to people like David de Formula >> was really handy because he was there you know Matteo Trentine he was there in the to Flanders when Pigacha blew past him and won his first one like and that gives it a kind of revisionism like you get the big picture with this book in um in a way that's impossible with every every bike race wins nowadays. I get a sense there's a little bit of fatigue with fans because it feels like the same over and over and over again. But hopefully with this book you you get the jeopardy.
You get the sense of you know the midc career where he was losing to Vingard. You see how it it could have been, you know, different and that it feels like his rise was inexraable, right? But it wasn't like that.
>> Yeah. >> There were various parts on this journey where he could have stopped winning. He could have not become the incredible champion that he is today.
>> Yeah. >> And any book needs that too. That kind of it can't all be like win-winwin, you know?
Like I I definitely hear you on the fatigue of Pagato winning and I'm sure there's a lot of people listening have kind of the similar habits for watching bike races that I do. You'll typically go ride your bike in the morning and you'll come home and you're looking to tune in. You know, you're looking forward to coming home for the last 20k or spin.
You're like, I'll get home and it's just coming into the finale of the race and you've been accustomed over the last decade to tune in 50 60k to go and you get all the best action. 50 60k to go. Now you're tuning into stratabanke with 50 60k to go and it's like a televised training session.
Patcha is just there riding along and you're like kind of saying to the misses, oh, do you want to go out and have a coffee or something? Cuz you know, I feel like I've seen this race already. Like I know how this one turns out.
>> Firstly, you know, he still has a way of sometimes surprising us when you think it's going to go very straightforwardly. you know like sanki when he crashed this year he could have broken his collarbone his season would have been different obviously it wasn't you know amil golf race when it looked like he was on a puggy breakaway we've seen 20 times he gets caught and then beaten in the sprint so there is still a way of surprising us like I I still think it's being brilliant is not his fault like excellence shouldn't be boring >> um I don't think it's gotten boring yet because he's still I think he's evolving every season still. He's tactically he's attacking from generally speaking one day races slightly further out than he was last year for example.
Uh it's not his fault that say in grand tours Wingergard, a A Napole other rivals aren't quite there yet. But but even Vingard was saying at the Tour France this year that he he's putting out some of his best numbers. He's better than ever and he still can't beat him, you know.
>> Yeah, I I definitely want to get onto that Vindergart rivalry because I think that's interesting. And it's the only time that I've seen Puggy going back to, as I'd call it, going back to the lab. Going back to basics and starting to think, okay, I'm I'm not an X-Man.
I need to go back here. I need to rebuild over the winter. I need to come out better.
But before I just want to pull a little bit more of that creative thread because I'm fascinated in this process. When you set out to write the book, are you setting out to write a flattering piece for Pagatcha? And are you turning your blind eye and not pulling at threads that you're like, "Oh, this could lead to a dark place or, you know, specifically like the genetic connection in UAE.
" Like, is that something that you set out and you're like, "It's not worth pulling at this thread because as a fan, I'm so torn with Tad. He's this amazing great champion and he seems humble when you see him around or see him at home in Slovenia. I'm like, he just looks like a normal lad.
" and you know he's great friends with Eddie Dumbar who's you know good friend of the show and I can on the one hand see this just normal lad and then I see the UAE side of it and it's like the solid gold statue that's unveiled last week the blatant sports washing that's going on with UAE their role in Sudan the genetic connection there's this whole other dirty side to it that I don't know I put my head in the sand a little bit about it and I just become a Pogy fanboy on race day. But how did you approach that as a journalist? >> Yeah, this is the thing like to be a professional journalist to be a good one means to be a fair and objective and the word flattery doesn't come into it like I'm I'm trying to tell the most accurate compelling story and that also involves not shy shying away from controversial details.
you know, the genetic connection gets mentioned in in in the book. Sports washing gets mentioned in in the book, you know, um I think I say in the book that yeah, when per's winning races with UAE on his chest, fans are are not thinking about what's going on in in the UAE or or the heavily debated human rights record, are are they? But most of it also the statue like per didn't ask for a statue to be built of himself.
You know, he's kind of I I I suppose we're seeing down the line what happens when you're a a unique sporting champion. A lot of things are out of your hands or get built around you like that statue literally like it's of course he posed in front of it but deep down who knows maybe he found it a bit strange you know. Look though, it's not exactly workingass hero look to the solid gold statue.
>> Yeah, it's true. Like maybe it it would be better to touch it or something's good luck. Who knows?
Maybe like UAE cyclists in the future will do that for good luck, like rub his legs or something weird like that. Um, but this is also modern cycling. And modern cycling, we have several teams supported by Middle Eastern nations.
Um, maybe not Israel Hech anymore. But that's also down principally to the governing body and we kind of saw with the welter this year. People power kind of won which is interesting you know quite cool maybe um that had an impact and you know if if countries like the UAE or Bahrain or Israel shouldn't be backing cycling teams the buck stops with them.
they need to make the rules um to make it more more difficult or to have more appropriate owners. Um we're also, you know, modern cycling, I'm kind of going off on a tangent here, but >> there's not many sponsors lining up to back big money teams, are there? So, it's still quite a niche sport compared to F1, maybe football.
Um, >> I also think we we got to calibrate our expectations sometimes of these athletes, these kids. Like they're, you know, they're not my role model for spirituality. They're not my guiding light on morality.
They're brilliant at what they do. I think, you know, controversial character as he is these days. Conor McGregor was asked some political take, which he's freely happy to give these days, but I remember a couple of years back he had some political take and the journalist came back to him like, you know, it's not a very informed take.
And the response was brilliant because he said, I think you're confusing what I do. I get locked in a cage and I beat people to debt until someone stops me for money. You might want to consider how much you weigh my opinion on these things.
And it's like, yeah, it's it's true, isn't it? I sometimes I wonder why are we looking to these athletes to to show us, you know, the guiding principles of right and wrong. And maybe that childish part of me can just go and park that and just celebrate these amazing UAE wins and go, whoa, 100 race days.
It's pretty cool. >> But, you know, who really is is is looking to tell Pagata to be, you know, their moral compass? You know, he's he's a bygrace first and foremost.
Like I I was in a press conference in the tour to France this year where he was asked about the UAE and and the country and he kind of gave an answer quite a long answer actually saying well you should go and and visit it that it it's changed a lot in the last few years that kind of thing. You know we shouldn't expect our sporting champions to be pol you know politicians. Firstly they're not well versed on that because they spend their whole waking existence trying to be the best cyclist they can be.
And secondly, you know that I do think sport and politics has a crossover though. You know, you can't say that they don't mix. >> Yeah.
Yeah. >> But he reminds me more of of Carlos Alcarez, who's like a smiley Labrador type complete tennis player. incredible tennis player more than Roger Federra whose biography I actually read before writing this because at first I kind of saw parallels between Fedra and and Pagata but you know Padra's not that much of a smoothie as as Fedra you know >> yeah oh like Jovovich is chalk and cheese to Fedra Fedra is the ultimate diplomat kind of you know very swift straight down the line but you know that might change.
Like is only 27. He's just turned 27. >> Which is wild.
>> Like he's still he's still like if one of your mates is 27, you're on the beer with him, you're just like, "Ah, bless him. I'm sure he knows nothing. He's only 27.
" >> Yeah. Making me feel old and inferior, you know? See, but um yeah, when you think so part of the research too was I listened to hours and hours of press conferences over the years, you know, and when you hear in his in the first 24 hours press conference after he's done that crazy spectacular time trial on on plunge to bail feed >> Oh, when fell apart >> in 2020.
Yeah. Incredible drama, you know, that's covered heavily in in the book, you know. when you hear him and his level of English and his his shyness compared to now, he's way more candid and open and funny, occasionally spiky, you know, especially the last week of the tour to France.
But I can see that being a a trend for the next few years where he's only going to be more open and he's going to talk about c certain topics and he's probably not gonna he's going to care even less what people think which is probably a good thing for the sport hopefully you know >> to be ble is an interesting reference point as well because if we think now everyone talks about UAE this super team they just you know the next big talent they add him in with Civicov JV everyone's going in guys will be team leaders somewhere else are going in and they've just decimating the front of bike races since we probably haven't seen since Sky were hitting the front back in the day with Fum and just ripping races apart from the front. If we go back to La Plat Belfi that year UAE were widely criticized for not having a team strong enough to support Bagota and that's not that long ago that they've built this machine to support TAD because we're not in an individual sport. Tad success doesn't happen without that UAE machine in the background.
>> No, like you know this is the thing this book unstoppable also charts the journey of UA team Emirates from you know when they signed big they were 12th in the world tour out of 17 18 teams like they were basically lamprey and they kind of kept that that relaxed Italian atmosphere which I think is quite impressive. they have a lot of money but they're not corporate. You know, when I earlier in my career dealing with Sky, it's never been the most fun.
Even now, to be honest, you know, in terms of PR and like press, whereas UAE, they they haven't changed that much e even with the talent. But on the bike, you know, the point I'm I'm trying to make is you really see they've they had shortcomings. You know, I I talked to Joel Wakefield for the book who's a former trainer there.
Now he's quite a good lad. Yeah. Yeah.
Really good lad. And he was saying the 2022 tour to France, they were outsidilienced by John Bo Visma, pure and simple, you know, and they didn't see it kind of coming that they and going back to Cli, they should never have won the tour to France. He said that year that on on paper they were behind.
They weren't a tour to France winning performance team. Um, and there's been a a vast evolution really. like it's night and day from when they actually joined to now.
And there's a lot of reasons for that. You know, money only goes so far. I I can think back to teams like BMC maybe talking 10 years back who had a lot of cash and they didn't build a super team like this.
You know, if you remember like Jeelbe, Vanavar. >> Yeah. >> Evans.
>> Good point. >> Like to win almost 100 races without a sprinter really is absolutely crazy. and balancing riders who if you're from the outside thinking you want to build a team for harmony there's some of the sign like Solair is just a notorious no one knows what Solair is going to do next but it works in UAE it wouldn't work in many other places movie star included but when you put him in UAE for some reason it works like there's a skill to that rider selection >> yeah and rider management Um, speaking to David de la Cruz who was Petra's teammate on on the first tour, he was kind of heaping praise on Machin Fernandez as Ford manager because he picks the programs but more importantly he you know he's he's the interface for managing ambitions and egos.
I think it really helps that Pagata is the boss, you know, to quote what Adam Yates calls him that there's absolutely no questioning why would there would be any other leader that makes it much easier say for the tour to France or the biggest goals for it to be you know all all for one one for all >> and that part sorry to jump in but I I think that part is interesting because when I look at where the threats are coming from for Pagatcha I don't necessarily think the threats are in Evapole stepping up at Red Bull or Yonas regrouping. I can see more of a threat of internal implosion in the team that you get two camps, camp del Toro, camp tad, and the team starts to divide rather than Pagacha's level falling off. >> Interesting.
Well, firstly, I actually differ there because I I I think Remco will be a more tangible threat in the future than Finger Guard. You know, we just saw the other day that Alan Piper, who was a mentor for for Pagatcha, has now joined, you know, John Wakefield and everyone else on on Red Bull. And I think that's a really interesting signing.
Like his professionalism, his tactical intelligence, his human management is kind of second to none. And you know, that's just one element that I think will help to help to bring Remco closer to TAD. Remco >> my take on remco summed up in one moment and I talked to Ben Healey actually about this on the podcast and Ben Healey kind I don't want to put words in his mouth but I'm going to say concursors everyone can listen to the podcast of Ben and make your own mind up the seat post slipping in worlds that's so illustrative of I think the problem that Remco has his co didn't slip in worlds if you're you look at the last lap where Remco attacks Healey in the exact same place as he seost slipped What happens?
Shifts down the block, gets out with the saddle and goes. Go to Tad's attack. Tad attacks.
Remco says his seat post is slipping. But yet he doesn't shift down the block and he doesn't get out with a seat. Your seat post is slipping and you don't get out with a saddle.
Ben Healey's take is like you can't follow Tad. You can't follow Tad. Don't pretend your seat post is slipping.
>> He's a he's a champion. like he's he's he's the only rider who reminds me of of Pagatcha in the way that he races and the way he attacks from that far out >> and who is maybe as dangerous, you know, if if you give him an inch, he'll take a mile and maybe occasionally he he makes excuses, but he has to do that mentally. He can't say, "I got completely whooped here," can he?
>> Yeah, that's a good point. Yeah. Um, but to go back to the Del Toro thing too, I think that's actually really interesting and I would be more worried if if I didn't perceive at the moment those two to have a really good personal relationship.
Uh, you know, Del Toro looks up to him. That doesn't mean that he won't usurp him. You know, kind of Wiggins moment where we had the is it Sean Yates on the radio where he's like, "Chris, I hope you have permission from Bradley for that attack.
" where FS just rode off away from everyone. I think it was Nebbley Evans and Wiggins coming to the finish. >> That could happen.
And and this might be one of the team's biggest challenges for the future. It it's not just keeping Patcha at his level and Patcha said he's already at his peak a few times this year. But it's also, you know, managing the transition because sooner on or or later, Pagata either won't be in the sport or he won't be the absolute beast that we know right now.
And Del Toro, I think we're a few years away from that though. If you look at the world's road race, that epitomizes the difference. You know, Del Toro, yes, he has stomach problems, but he wasn't going to beat Pagata and he wasn't going to get much closer to him in my opinion that day.
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Parley Cycles, engineered for that feeling that keeps us coming back. Yonas is an interesting one because we talked about there I put a pin in it and to come back to that point now it's like the only time I've seen Tad looking flustered. You know, we all have that iconic footage where he's on the radio like, "Oh, I'm gone.
I'm gone." And then I think it's Janetti coming back across the line. E, someone stay with Tad.
Always with Tad. E, and it's, you know, this great moment of, you know, staying with your team leader even in a in a bad spot as well. But we seen in that second tour to France out playing Tade in a lot of ways.
And Tad went back that winter and it looked like he doubled down. I think he changed coaches. Maybe you can speak to that.
and he came back out almost a different rider. Now when I say different rider, I think that's in itself difficult to to measure because we also seen Vindigard having a really bad crash in the spring that year. So it's how much of Vindigard's level is down or TAD's level is up.
Maybe you could speak to that kind of what I'd call a transitionary period and was it a transitionary period? >> Yeah, that's undoubtedly one of the of the biggest turning points in Pakat's career. That's why we see him like he is now.
You know, there's a whole chapter in Unsolvable, you know, detailing what I wanted to compare it to was like this Rocky scene where he's running up the stadium steps, you know, maybe that's very cliche, but there was this whole winter where they went back went back to the lab to use your your phrasing. >> That's Gogggins, I think, rather by Frozen. I'll take it.
Yeah. >> Well, they went back to the drawing board basically. Um >> because we actually talked about it like after that tour that second tour defeat to Vingard he was devastated angry frustrated like these are not words he ever normally says you know but uh I think he lost only six minutes to vingard on cold some champions never recover from that psychologically you know that is a hell of a beating isn't it but you know they his team and him changed so much they really knuckled down and looked to the 1 percenters like that.
And it wasn't, you know, it would be easy to say it was this one thing that changed um everything, but it was more like 10 different things, you know. >> Yeah. >> They finally searched for the for the best equipment and didn't spare anything.
They went to Shimano, I think, from Campanolo. They went with MV wheels. >> Tires changed as well, if I remember.
>> Tires changed. I think he went to smaller cranks. um they're working more on his position.
They narrowed his cockpit. I think he started racing a smaller frame. Even mentally, and this is one thing that really epitomizes the champion character for Tad.
He started working with a brain coach in uh in Belgium who's worked with well Vanar, Wayne Rooney the footballer, people like that. And he would give him games, you know, to test his reactions. And >> that's cool, >> his nervous system.
And apparently Tad did it through the winter of 2023, day after day unbroken. And and one time this Belgian coach messaged him because he could see that he was doing it after midnight. And he was like, "What what are you doing?
" And you know, so Pasha was not just enjoying it, he was also smashing records that his other clients had set, you know. So there's so much you don't see of Ty Pagata that sums up that explained why he is a champion. Basically, it's everything under the surface.
You know, the tip of the iceberg is him winning dominantly in Rwanda, for example, but everything else that goes in into it, he makes it look easy. He looks laidback. >> And he's cultivated this effortless persona as well, where everything's like it's a laugh.
It's it's a bit of a joke. But any world tour rider train any pro trains incredibly hard. Never mind world tour on the training peak of some conte riders and they're hustling like you wouldn't believe.
Their life is upside down. They have no personal life. It's all in on cycling.
You step up the levels. You know we've seen a lot of riders coming out in the past year even stepping away saying modern cycling will having to weigh every gram of food. You know bring the digital weighing scales to friends birthdays.
It's just not a way to live. And you think Pagatcha is doing everything everyone's doing, but he's doing everything better than everyone's doing to get at this level. >> But it wasn't always that way.
Like this is this is a fun story that made the book that I I'd never heard before. Um I talked to his friend and his former teammate in uh Slovenia, Jigo Rousigash, who um I think he's just one year with Uno X now, not racing anymore, but he was with him and Andrea Halman before the 2021 tour to France. They were doing recons of the route in France probably May May time.
This was just after co so you know they'd be riding finishing 2 3 in the afternoon so there wouldn't be any restaurants open. You've been to France right? Like it's a nightmare you know.
So he was like, "We just have kebabs sometimes or burgers and then in the evening we'd have a liter of red wine between us." Which sums up how Picata kind of used to be that he was still incredibly talented. He still worked really hard.
You know, they were reconing the stage, but he was just this happy golucky guy who was there with his mates and wasn't living it 100%. Um, and it's crazy to me also that he won that tour by like six minutes months later. You know, Hilly, he maybe felt he didn't have to do everything to the end degree that he is doing now.
And that's the big change in a way. But I I love that story because it kind of sums up when you see where he is now. He certainly is not stopping at McDonald's now for a burger when he's going training.
But we often see this with super talented athletes in any sport that for a period in their early career like you listen to Riken's brilliant podcast now and he'll talk about the early days of Man United and they'd be going out playing key games and like daddy I get a kebab on the way to the match but later then in life it normally takes some moment for Keane it's turning cru it's for Tad it seems like losing that to Yonas it takes some moment or some person to come along and flick someone that has talent to someone that has talent that works hard and then they almost transcend the sport to be gone to become cultural icons to become great but it needs that mixture of hard work meets talent to get there. >> Absolutely. Like but also firstly I mean he was working hard but secondly he he transcends the sport because he breaks conventions you know because year after year like he changes what we think a stage racer let alone a tour for France winner should do.
Like not so long ago, you know, which tour to France champion even lined up for the tour fllanders. Now he's he's won two. Like most of them didn't do Milano.
He comes close to winning it every year. You know, the Triple Crown, we probably thought that wasn't going to happen in the 21st century, didn't we? And but Paru Bay is the ultimate like that just that shows that not just the cyclist allrounder that he is but the competitive fire that he won that third tour of to France last year.
Yeah. Number three, wasn't it? >> Yeah.
>> Dominantly. Why would you risk it by doing Peru Bay? Well, I I've stood on the cobbles and had Garin Thomas, a tour winner, crash in front of me at 12, the first sector.
Why would you do that? because he believes he can win it and he showed he can win it. Like that just that's why he shouldn't be so boring to fans when you remember things like that because when he's gone there ain't going to be a Pagasha rider.
There ain't going to be a tour of France champion doing Fllanders probably let alone Rubé. So >> well we're back to Vindigar then. And you know in a lot of ways I do love Vindigar because I resonate so much more with him.
You know there's none of the Richard Mle watches the private jets or the solid gold statues. like he's he's a family man. He's a humble background from what I can see.
He does his thing, comes along and you know he's still take Pocky out of it. He's the dominant grand tour rider. Maybe absolute numbers.
I think Roglish has probably won more Grand Tours, but he's the dominant Grand Tour rider of the last decade. And I I still have hopes for this Vindard Puggy rivalry that Vindergart can regroup and there's somehow a [ __ ] in the armor of Puggy. Do you see that [ __ ] in the armor?
felt like last year, the last week of the tour to France, he was getting irritated by the media. He didn't look like he wanted to be there. Now, we may have got a partial explanation from Tim Wellins last week who said Pogy was carrying quite a bad knee injury into the last week of the tour and they kept it secret and each day they basically were unsure if he was going to continue or not that his whole body was starting to swell in Tim Wellen's words.
So, I'm not sure how much the injury played into his sort of just almost disdain for the media and almost looked a little bit annoyed by Vizma's tactics through the race as well like you seen Jorgensson and him look to be clashing a little bit. Do you see a [ __ ] in the armor? Was was that an early signs of a [ __ ] There were a few people, you know, during the in process who said that he does have a weakness that he does have weakness.
It's like he's not invincible, he's not unbeatable. Um I think the way Vizma you go about it you know that 2022 tour stage to CRON I think it was that's a textbook example of of how a stronger unit isolates and then defeats the stronger individual. Um the problem is they they didn't have quite this stronger unit any maybe anymore.
You know things have changed round. Um, and I don't think the team is is a weakness really for Tad anymore. So, Chinx in the armor.
I'm just trying to think. >> There's not many. There's not many.
I think you can use his overeagerness against him. Maybe, you know, that he wants to race all these races. You know, if if he did break a collarbone in stride last year, >> he might be saying he shouldn't erase that.
You know, certainly if he had injured himself a power rub, he might never do it again in his career. >> Um, attacking from too far out. We're This is the thing like Pasha is getting more mature.
He's getting more tactically savvy. We're not seeing him, you know, blow up much anymore. He knows his own limits.
That last week of the of the tour to France, knowing what we know now with a knee injury, it was actually pretty masterful controlled riding. You know, no one suspected he had an injury. No media asked him about it.
But the other thing is the enjoyment thing. You I think you touched on him being kind of um you know, grumpy, maybe um annoyed by some of the questions. The tour is a pressure cooker and he's done it I think five six years in a row.
Um he needs a break, man. Like don't wouldn't we all like to see maybe Patcha do Gio of Welter cuz the Welter is on his hit list. >> Yeah.
>> Wouldn't it be nice to have a tour to France just one soon without Pagata at his peak? Um >> or wouldn't we love to see him do a tour of Wela? >> Yeah.
I'm that you see the toll it kind of takes on him by the end of the tour. That was clear because he planned to do the welter this year originally like it has several years >> but it just takes such a mental and physical toll. There was no way they were going to throw someone with a knee injury in to do the welter several weeks later then win it just wasn't going to happen.
But that would be if if he if he wins Jirro tour to welter it goes without saying doesn't it? He's the greatest. No will ever do that.
But even Jire Welter will be really impressive. >> What's left for him to round out? How many years has he got left on his contract?
And what has he got left to win in that time for in your mind to solidify him as the greatest? >> So contract we're under till 2030. What's that?
26, seven, eight, nine, >> five more seasons, five more complete seasons. >> It's hard to see him going that deep, I think. But who knows?
>> You think he's he's going to stop before 2030? >> I think he's going to stop. Yeah.
My my theory would be post Olympics. >> I don't want to be too cynical, but if if someone's paying you over 8 million euros uh every year to race your bike, >> Yeah. >> I will probably keep going for the extra two years.
Especially >> Chris style. >> Not sure we can make that comparison. Um cuz Pasha will only be >> hold on has more to France wins than Pogy.
>> Are they both on four? >> For now. Yeah.
Yeah. >> No, Pogy's on three, isn't he? >> Both on four.
>> Both on four. with unfor so I level peggy but yeah he wants to win the welter Milano is just so near yet so far >> and it's so made for him in so many ways he just needs to like Vanderpole's got to slow down like he's got to slow down he's like because he's that few years older than Pocky as well >> he needs a year with Vanderpole having a cold or something like that >> and then you look is it also looks like a perfect one for wealth on earth but he never seems to target that race cuz coming off the back of Cyclross. It just seems too close.
But it looks like a W like if Ghana can get over in the front group. How can W not get over in the front group? There's a problem there.
The Pagacha needs to unpick and I think it's the W van Matthew Vanderpal problem. And Wout's the only one to drop Pogy all season. >> That's true.
That's true. Like this is very left field too, but I I was talking to Matty Brennan who's obviously had an incredible Neopro season. >> Unbelievable.
and he was saying he want he wants to put his name down from from Lazaro and I'm not saying he would beat Pagata but if he keeps improving maybe not next year that could be a race for him and that if him and and and Venard are on the same team okay they're quite similar riders that would be quite interesting um >> should tell Manny Brennan to talk to Arnold Demar ask him how he got back into the front group over the Pio I think was his straa foil up online he I think He went up uh he I think he took like 60 seconds off the fastest ever ascent to the Pio or something like that. >> Imagine footage of him just holding on to a car all the way up. >> But yeah, like what else is there?
Parubay. I mean I I don't see Pra doing it every year because it's too risky. Even though he came second, even though he knows he can win it, we know he can win it.
>> Um the welcome. >> It's a bit of a lottery though in it. Like, yeah, he can win it.
And there's probably five riders that can win it, but your lotto ticket needs to come up for you to win that. >> It's not a lottery, though. Like, he he showed, you know, like, >> well, it's a lot for five guys, I'd say.
>> Yeah, maybe 10 20. Like, you need a bit of luck for sure for the first half of the race, you know, to not get stuck behind. Once you get over the Aaronburg, then it's game on.
Um, >> but, you know, we shouldn't even be talking about Pasha in terms of rub. Like, it's crazy. it doesn't, you know, there used to be this dogma that anyone under 70 kilos didn't stand much of a chance there and he's just changed that too.
Um, >> yeah. >> And then Welter, it's there for him. It's there for him, but he can't keep going to the tour because it'll burn him out physically or mentally and that's a real problem.
And and the Welter is the third most important grand tour. So something's got something has to give there. Plus, he needs a world that doesn't suit him very much because if it does, if it has hills in it, he's got a chance there.
So, basically what I'm I'm saying is he and the management have to choose really carefully over for the next year's his calendar and what he really wants to do otherwise he might burn out and he might quit after those Olympics like you suggest. >> You know, I'm genuinely proud of my little man cave, my escape, my safe place. It's not glamorous by any means.
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And I think we'd all love to see him going out on the top and not having the slow fade away, but there's an economic reality that the slow fade away probably puts a lot more cash in your pocket than the big Michael Jordan finish at the top of the game. But yeah, on the other hand, Per doesn't need money. He He doesn't need more race wins.
Like if if he walked away from the sport tomorrow, we're still going to talk about him in hello tones as one of the greatest, aren't we? So that comes back to internal motivation and enjoyment. And he's got to be he's got to do the things that make him love it deep down or, you know, win the races like Sammo, which eats away at him.
I I know it does. like he needs those little stimuli, you know, different calendar things every year. Also, the tour to France might start in Slovenia in 2029.
>> I I have heard that the truth from some people on the ground over there already. >> Wouldn't that be a reason to keep going? >> The roads are getting relayed as we speak over there.
>> I mean, that'd be crazy. Like, you couldn't have imagined that before Rugglitch and him came along really. And more rich.
And that's an interesting point like what happened in Slovenia. You know, it's the I I interviewed uh a runner who embedded into the Ethiopian culture and it's you know the cliche of its altitude and his takeaway was it's attitude not altitude. It's they've built a system that the natural outcome of that system is champions and you had to just spend time in this system to realize how perfect the system they've cultivated is.
What happened in Slovenia where you produce in a country that's small like a tiny population I think it's smaller than like London probably significantly smaller than London's population paga moderate Modric Rogich some lesser names Yan Trapnik Yanni Brachovich has come out there probably missed a couple of others but you know they're they're not nobodyies even uh Yanni Braovich won a criterium the Dolphin like these are big Para's results for a tiny country. >> Yeah. Like two million people.
Uh they're the smallest psych superpower and they're still an underdog. You know, they don't have the best system. They don't have the most money in their system.
You know, I tell these stories in in the book talking to Pagasha's teenage teammates on the national team, but when they race junior nation cups, the UCI season long series in Europe, they would drive there in this bad bad old mini bus, you know. So, if driving to Luxembourg, they drive to Luxembourg, you know, if they drive to Belgium, they didn't have money for plane tickets. So, this is a country historically that's all that's has a kind of inferiority complex because it's so small because it's been invaded by loads of other, you know, rulers.
And I think a lot of it it cyclists, you know, take on the underdog mentality, but they don't feel inferior. And that's partly down to even modern ones seeing what Roglish can do. Once they realize they could compete, they're not held back by anything or or anyone.
And even the way Praa trained was kind of helped to shape this happy golucky attacking persona. You know, when he was mentored by Andre Halman, who's now his DS at UAE, going back 10 years when they were juniors, like Hman was not Mr. Science like in the way that he trained them, he would basically give them in uh interval training without saying they were doing intervals.
He would say, you know, go to this hill, go as hard as as you can, regroup, then we'll do this one harder. And they made it more a kind of like a game, like make racing like fun. Maybe like 30 years ago.
But that was actually, you can see it now. That was really good for for you know, Pagata that maybe that helped to form his his mentality and his attitude to risk we see now. So yeah, it's all these little things.
Still no one saw Petro coming though. Like I talked to sport scientists who tested him when he was 16 17 and he was much the same as the others in his class of 1998. >> That's wild.
>> That's quite interesting to me. Like so I went to Slovenia for a week. Beautiful country by the way.
Lovely people. >> Oh, it's phenomenal. Best anyone will listen I'll tell them.
I went bike packing through Lana last year. It's the best place I've ridden my bike in as long as I can remember. >> And yeah, mountains on every horizon, right?
Like it's just stunning. Um the beers, >> you get people on every corner. It's cheap.
It's like >> Yeah, you can't go wrong there. Um >> yeah, there's so many factors, but the their attitude is not perfect for sure. Like it isn't like um um Ethiopia.
And I'm wondering I'm worried about the next 50 years of Svenia cycling because any rider who shows any talent is going to be labeled. >> It's an ex Merk's problem, isn't it? And it's Pagata, you know, and that just it's not fair, is it?
Um, it's it's hard enough breaking through to the world tour. >> Yeah. >> And hindsight's wonderful, isn't it?
But you know, like Pagata was just happy to get a world tour contract like originally. You go back to 2018, he was just pleased to be there. He just wanted to race the tour and he ended up winning his first one.
>> I remember doing a I think the podcast was starting around then and I remember doing a VA podcast and not having a clue how to pronounce his name. I was like, "Pog pog a car. Pog car is won today.
" >> Yeah. Like I remember asking him I was actually at his the first pro race he won with UAE to the Algarov and I had a little interview with him and asking him how do you say it? And he got that like a lot the first year, didn't he?
Like all these commentators mandling his surname. But now, you know, everyone gets it right because we talk about him every day. >> Yeah.
It's phenomenal. Alli, you are my favorite cycling journalist. I have two books on the shelf already.
Tom Simpson. I have God, Frank Vandenbrook, and I'm really looking forward to getting a copy of the Pagato one. When is it out?
When can I get my hands on it? >> It's out November 27th. It's a press date.
>> All right. Really soon. >> So, it it's coming out perfect.
>> Christmas reading sources. >> Yes, that's right. Too right.
Yeah. >> What's the best place to get it where Jeff Bezos doesn't take all your money? >> What?
Good question. Maybe Bloomsbury, maybe bookshop.org, but yeah, just anywhere that like you say possibly isn't is not Amazon, but I'm not picky either.
Like just wherever if you want to go. >> Any good book shop and plenty of bad bookshops will probably have it too. >> Yeah, it it really, you know, this is a story the world needed to hear.
You know, the Pagata life and sporting story comprehensively detailed. you know, love lovingly told by me >> and thanks on behalf of everyone for taking the time to put your life on pause to go and research this story. So, you know, if it's anything like your previous books, I can only imagine it's striking a balance of entertaining but also just thoroughly interested in page turning.
>> Yeah, like it was found out some great stories and, you know, details that I I I never expected to in a million years. So yeah, it it was really fun, you know, learning who the real Patcha is. >> Andy, thanks for taking time today to chat.
>> Thanks so much for having me.