This is what a day in the life of a pro cyclist actually looks like. Today I sit down with one of the biggest rising talents in the world of pro cycling, EF Education's Darren Raferty. And what he shared in this interview genuinely surprised me because the quiet composed rider you see in Juralia inside that there's somebody carrying a level of pressure, expectation, and sacrifice that nobody talks about.
From growing up in Ireland to navigating the brutal setbacks of a world tour, breakthrough wins. This is what life looks like inside one of the top world tour teams. A day in the life of a pro cyclist, Darren Rafy.
Darren Rafy, welcome to the Roadman podcast. >> Thanks for having me. It's nice to be here.
>> Yeah, we're in Darren's house. He moved here since he went to Billy big time. >> Yeah, as you can see, nice house, big house, >> lovely backdrop.
Uh, I was chatting to some of the boys in our club WhatsApp group back home and everyone very excited. Fellow Patty on the podcast. It's been a while.
>> Yeah. >> H trying to think who the last party was. I suppose we'll have to give Ben the the tag will be.
>> Yeah. Yeah. >> Yeah.
We we'll let him away with it. But uh yeah, one of the big questions is just like >> Well, maybe this the best place to start it. You get to live what a lot of writers dream about, you know, and you were that kid dreaming of being in the world tour and now you're in the world tour.
It's like opening that up and letting us peek inside. What's that like on a dayto-day like from training to nutrition for maybe we'll go through some of that and how rock and roll is the lifestyle. I think yeah a lot of the listeners viewers will be pretty disappointed to hear that it's quite boring most days.
So sorry in advance for that but I think yeah something about the cycling lifestyle it's pretty strict. It's pretty regime with a bit of fun sprinkled in a lot of travel and mainly just a lot of consistency a lot of time on the bike few hours a week in the gym trying to stay consistent with the nutrition and yeah trying to enjoy the days with the boys when you can. Like Bling Matthews was saying, his secret is he's gone to bed and woke up at the exact same time for a decade.
Like that's not sexy. >> Yeah. No, it's not.
It's usually not that exciting. I think people kind of have a preconceived image of what the life's like and then it's actually not that different to what you think it's going to be to be honest. Maybe just >> is it discipline or do you just get into routine and you don't even think about the discipline anymore?
Yeah, I would say you're not even thinking about discipline. I mean, you have a coach that sets the training. You just get it done.
I think most of days, obviously, there's days you don't feel your best. You can always knock an hour or two off or if you're feeling good, knock an hour extra on, but there's a lot of chat about like motivation or discipline or, you know, getting the job done. But I think when you don't have much else to do in your day, there should not really many excuses.
I remember reading this book uh thinking fast and slow and I had this really cool idea that always stuck me in it. So they said there's there's two types of decisions, type one and type two decisions. And it talked about the start where when you start driving and you're trying to figure out and drive manual, you're like press the clutch, okay, change gear, like remember not crash, clutch, change gear.
And then you like fast forward six months and this just happens automatically and you know you can listen the radio, chat on the phone, have a [ __ ] do all these things when you're driving and you don't think about it anymore because it's changed from like something that's an automated behavior to something sorry something that's a manual behavior that's requires a lot of effort to something that's just an automatic behavior like you know I just got up this morning brush me I didn't think oh no I got to brush my teeth the cognitive load is reduced for doing that does training become that for you it's just wake up train. >> Yeah, I think it's exactly like you said, it's that autopilot. Your brain's habit kind of habit tracking all the time.
So once you start making something a regular occurrence, I think your body starts to fall into that routine and you know, you wake up, make breakfast, have a coffee, and then you're out out on the bike, get what you need to get done, home, lunch. Um, >> and we were just chatting about this just before we pressed record. Like the new habit you've had to integrate in this and a lot of the world tour teams have had to integrate is wake up, check hex, see what's for breakfast, weigh out the oats.
>> Yeah. >> And that might be the part that people are like, "Oh, I couldn't weigh out the oats." But it's not that bad.
Like >> Yeah. I think that's probably one of the big changes like when you go from just riding your bike around at home to then doing it as a job. It's more so the things off the bike that change like getting up weighing yourself every morning checking >> weigh yourself every morning.
>> Yeah, >> that's heartbreaking. >> I mean to me it's like some people think oh I couldn't do that or don't want I think once you're in the routine it's also just doesn't matter >> cuz it's the first way and it's a difficult one and it's like >> it's just it's just a number is a number and >> it's not it's >> um yeah I think I also looked at it that way for a while and then you realize it's only about you. So, I think the sooner you get past the number, it's just it is just simply a number.
Like, it's actually kind of irrelevant. If I ask you like, "How was your day?" >> Yeah.
>> Or if I ask you, "How much do you weigh?" It's it's there's one question that's important. It's how was your day?
>> Um, but and you know what, like we we're talking about hexis and the amount of food we need to eat. And why I actually really like that idea of knowing what to eat, it kind of removes the morality around food. Like you're saying, people will jump on the scales and be like, "Oh, it's a number.
" number, but that number represents then a mood that they're in for the rest of the day. I think we can get into that with food as well. Like, you know, we went for a coffee and had a cross on before.
You could tag that as bad food and you get into this idea of good food and bad food rather than understanding the actual macronutrient composition of the food and going, "Right, there's a probably went a little bit over on fat, but banged a load of carbs in and now you can start to estimate how that fits into the rest of your day." >> Yeah. I think people can be pretty harsh on themselves sometimes with food.
And it kind of comes this internal battle of good and bad like you said, but really it's just about trying to keep calm, not letting those things really eat away at you. And I mean, if you want to be top top athlete, obviously you have to watch what you're eating, but it's not like I've never had a sweet in my life or I don't eat a chocolate bar every so often. Like it's it's common.
Most most if not all athletes do it. It's not uh it's not something to be scared of. I think so.
>> I love the idea of instead of all or nothing, all or something. >> Yeah. >> And it's like, you know, just because you have two biscuits doesn't mean you need to go and then polish off the full packet of biscuits and a tub of ice cream.
>> Yeah. There's a bit of restraint involved, I think. And I think that's something that some people struggle with if they go all or nothing on some sort of diet.
It's like going to go all in, not eat anything, you know, not going to eat any chocolate, any sweets for two weeks, and then there's just this massive crash afterwards, which is pretty inevitable. I think I think that's something does pretty good is like keeps you grounded on this is what you need to eat for today. If you eat this, you'll be fine.
>> You going to use it on Christmas day? >> No, I think I'll not use it Christmas week to be honest. Like try and stay consistent up until then.
And then >> because you've camps before and camps after. >> Yeah, we had our first camp just a couple weeks ago, middle of November, and then we have another camp in Jeron in the middle of January. So yeah, I mean the work's been done pre and post Christmas.
The the few days around Christmas is I think for everyone just some time to switch off, bit of family time. >> You're in this you're in the generation coming through now that everyone complains about that I talked on the podcast. Like I haven't chatted to too many lads from your generation and everyone's like young lads coming through ruining cycle.
They take everything too serious. >> I'm not really going to be in that side of the fence cuz I'm probably one of them people that takes it too serious too. I'm quite the yeah quite serious with most things.
Probably get plenty of abuse from from probably the older generations and yeah he's taking it way too serious. >> But it seems to be that criticism level that every new generation that comes along. >> Yeah.
I think it's just like a change of culture [ __ ] like kind of an evolution shift that people have kind of roasted tinted glasses on the good old days, like how it was back in their day or when they were at their peak or whatever. >> And really all the younger guys, and I'm well aware of the fact cuz I was there 5 years ago. All they're doing is looking up and thinking, I'm better than that writer.
He's world tour, but I know in 5 years I'm going to be better. Yeah. >> And that is probably true.
The thing is like with evolution, with the knowledge the writers have, juniors, with coaches, they probably will be and should be better than I am at 22. So, I mean that's great. >> Yeah.
But there's there's two sides to that coin, isn't there? Like I can definitely see that argument because I seen it as well. My generation coming through, you know, obviously I'm a bit older than you and my generation got [ __ ] because we were using parameters from the generation before going like, "Oh, you are taking all the phone out training.
You know, no more group rides because you're using a parameter." And then it just gets normalized and every cal four in the world now races on a power meter. It's just it's normal.
You are taking it to the next level with >> arrow nutrition. But >> I wonder is like >> the younger lads coming through maybe even the generation behind you that's coming next. Are they doing everything right already?
And you just there's not that room then for progression. You know, when you got into the world tour, like I remember having friends that got into the world tour and it's like, whoa, they've all of a sudden started training totally different to how I was training. They're all of a sudden eating totally different and then they take this big step up again.
If you're doing everything at 17, is there a is there a place to go with that? >> No, I think that that kind of difference in level has definitely shrunk in the last few years like definitely in the last five, six years that jump. I mean, you look around now, every World Tour team pretty much has a DVO team.
>> Yeah. >> They have kind of the practices put in place for everyone from 18. Most riders come into those teams with an agent, with a coach, you know, most with a nutritionist as well.
>> It's mad, isn't it? >> Um, yeah, it's even it's even crazy for me. I'm literally only two years out of under 23.
>> What are you 22? >> Yeah. >> Yeah.
Like yeah, you're definitely part of that cohort that. >> Yeah. Yeah, I'm part of the young group.
Yeah, like that the postreco era, I suppose you could call it. >> Um, >> and when you look at your age group coming up, who is the lad you look at and like he could be the next Remco, he could be the next T. >> Um, it's a good question actually.
I suppose there was no one really. I mean Johannes, the one baby Jirro was I probably would have said he was definitely going to be on some big things and then after one season was already changing from Vizma to Dathon. Um >> has he got a contract still?
>> Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.
I mean you got Del Toro that's skyrocketed but I also >> couldn't have told you that two years ago. So, uh, it's a really it's a really really hard gamble, I think, to pick and choose which writers actually going to reach the heights you think is possible. >> What is it do you think that separates the two riders you named?
Like Delporo has obviously gone on. Was he top or second in the UCI rankings this year? Like it phenomenal.
Yeah, phenomenal season. >> Like I don't did he lose a race in Italy this year? I don't even know if he did.
>> Maybe then maybe then maybe maybe off the podium and won. like phenomenal season, but is you can put your obviously UAE built this infrastructure and we talked about this not too long ago like it happened fast like 2022 UAE were widely criticized for not having a strong enough team to support Tad. He wins the TT against Rogich on Plad Belfie wins the tour on the last day.
Like if you look back at the history books like TA won the tour, you kind of have this impression they controlled the tour for the last two weeks. Wasn't the case at all. They were rag tag all over the place.
>> Yeah, >> he won it in the last day. They've gone from that to building this mammoth machine in a few years. >> Like what do you think is the secret sauce for building that?
And has has Del Toro benefited from that or whatever is going on with that culture of high performance there? >> Yeah, I think the simple answer is money. And uh I think a lot of people won't like that answer, but when you have more money, you can invest in better coaches, better nutritionists, more aerot testing, better uh bikes.
There's a lot of things you can do with more money. You can pay for better riders. And whenever you start to gain that kind of momentum snowball effect with good riders, then other great riders want to join in and be a part of the tour of France winning team or the Jirro winning team.
And then from that point on it just kind of gravitational force is pulling people in towards it I think. Um but I think with all teams there's only so much of an era that each team holds on to that top spot for and it's only a matter of time before another team kind of moves in swoops in. I mean, I think someone for Del Toro, he's definitely had a big jump in coming from a like a Mexican continental team, something like UAE, it's probably a team where he's seen massive, huge, huge improvement with development and writer support.
>> He just had a bigger margin to improve. I think >> money money. You see Wolf Wall Street?
>> I have. >> Great seeing him. He's like, I've been a rich man and I've been a poor man.
I was rich every time. With enough money, you can do anything. You can save the spot at all with enough money.
>> Yeah. I mean, money's not the answer to everything in life, but I think definitely when it comes to sport, it's it's a money game. And do you reckon we can see T saving spot at all?
Well, I think yeah, it's it is hard for smaller teams to compete with that kind of cash and they have to come at it with different angles, you know, like for our team for example, we really try and support our sponsors and kind of make that our more edge on like competitive edge for >> I couldn't believe when we were chatting having a coffee this morning like how much work he was actually put into sponsor activation showing return return on investment for sponsors. >> I've talked to a lot of writers in the podcast. I've never had a conversation like that.
>> Yeah. Yeah. I think that's actually really insightful and something that JV kind of projects onto the writers pretty well is the fact that, you know, we're paid to ride bikes because we are basically moving billboards kind of we are the riders that are supporting our sponsors.
The team isn't anything without the sponsor. And a lot of people have like even w I know have spoke about like how fragile the sport system, financial system is. A lot of people thought about different ways to run the sport.
There was a mention of the Super League recently, but I think ultimately until cycling finds a better revenue stream for for races like the tour and other grand tours, it's very difficult to not show full support to the sponsors because without a bike sponsor, without a clothing sponsor, soon the team kind of fades away pretty quickly. >> You're in the exact same model as I am on a podcast. It's like you're you're capturing attention >> and then you're loaning that attention to brands in return for cash and that's the exchange of value.
It's like I have some attention, you want some of my attention, you pay some cash, but you can't sleep on the fact that that is the transactional relationship. There is an expectation that >> when a brand gives you money, you are exposing them to attention. You guys obviously have multiple times platform than any podcast has.
You've because you're able to leverage stuff like the tour to France, like if you were in the break at the tour to France, what were you saying? Like the stats on that are absolutely wild if you're in a two up at the tour to France. >> Yeah, exactly.
Like I think TV time and this like a lot of it's always been called the tour. If you watch tune in on any of the boring days and you have the the breakaway day and it's like the TV breakaway or it's sometimes called and you'll hear the commentators kind of chatting on and on and on about Arca and the break or you know Vander Paul and his the guy who won the combat his name won the combativity prize this year. >> Yeah, I'm going to choose the wrong name.
Yeah, >> not sure. And I know exactly who you're on about and he deserves a lot of praise for it. >> Yeah.
Um it was pretty sensational, right? It was phenomenal, right? it it had people chatting about it.
Got on Twitter or Facebook or Instagram with lots of comments and then all of a sudden, you know, if that's the team, they're thinking, "Okay, we've had a lot of people in the world of cycling chat about this event today." And that's obviously of great value to Albusine, selling a few more shampoos or whatever. But >> yeah, because that's like that's the thing in my house.
I'm only buying cycling brands. Like we're getting new floors in the house. They're the conic we're getting the conic floors and windows.
>> Yeah, that's pretty impressive. That's >> Alison coffee and shampoo all the way like you don't keep this hair going with head and shoulders. That's an Alpison job right there.
>> But it is storytelling on two wheels is what you're doing. When you create a day like that where Vanderpole is in the break all day with his teammate because his teammate has a dream of winning the compactivity or standing on a podium in tour of France. >> It's storytelling.
>> Exactly. >> Storytelling's existed forever. That's why we're addicted to these stories.
>> Yeah. And I think that's something that that EF do really well like with the the YouTube channel's really cool. >> Yeah.
A lot a lot of people say like, "Oh yeah, I've seen the YouTuber or the pink team." And to some people they might not notice a sponsor down the side of the jersey, but they know that it's the pink team and they race the tour and they've got this kind of crocodile guy that's the mascot and that's what's exciting for people and uh yeah, I think that's why it's a team that definitely proud to be a part of >> and like you can even see with the direction you have gone. I'm not sure if it was JV's brainchild, but they launched the alternate calendar a few years ago where you had house who was I love Alex.
He been on the podcast loads of times. He's great crack. Lack was on a few weeks ago as well.
And the two of those boys just going and doing >> wacky races and that captured so much attention and because that's what it is. Like we're talking about that it's that transaction. It's you're trying to figure out new ways of capturing attention.
>> A lot of teams aren't doing that. Like I especially think of teams disappeared last year like you know Wanty Group >> like name one story that Wanty Group >> correct invol I I can't I can name one rider ony group maybe you know if you go to my head I might name five but most people watching can only name one. Yeah, I mean if you ask many people have they watched the like right around Australia from Lackland, they're going to say, "Oh yeah, watch it.
Great, great watch." And like I don't watch much YouTube, but I thought that was an interesting story. It was an interesting video to watch.
And it captured my interest. So I think that niche of the sport where it's doing something that's not just road cycling, riding up a mountain in France. It does capture the the normal human that just wants to go explore, wants to get out on their bike and do the simple art of going for a pedal.
I think it reconnects with something that we can all identify with. Like when you start cycling, it's, you know, your mom says you're not allowed past the end of the road and then all of a sudden the boundaries are lifted. You can go past the end of the road and instantly you're exploring.
Instantly you're >> doing something that your mates aren't and it feels like it's still cool riding your bike as an adult in a new place. You're like, I wonder what's around that corner. I wonder what's if I go left at the top of that climb I normally stop at.
What's there? >> Yeah. and it taps back into that and the tour or you know especially watching one day races in Belgium or something like it's amazing as a hardcore cycling fan but I can also see if I knock over to my parents house or my sister or something's there she's just not watching she just doesn't care it's like I don't know what it is if it's France >> correct I think the draw from other sports like there's not many people apart from the die hard cycling fans are going to tune in for six hours of San Ramo um >> no one's tuned in for six hours of San Ramo Right.
Now, this is what I mean. It's like >> if you've got a basketball game on, it only lasts one hour. You can tune in for the full the full time.
But, >> but this has been the TA criticism because like if you're a cycling fan, you normally ride the bike. If you're in Ireland, UK, Europe, your weekend routine is you get out, you do the club spin, you meet the lads, whatever. You come home, you catch the last 60, 70k of San Ramo, Flanders, Stratabanke, whatever.
Now you're coming home and it's like rush home, turn on the TV, all super t solo >> solo. >> And now it's just watching like a televised training ride. >> Yeah.
>> Like the drama's gone. Like >> Yeah. I think it definitely it's as much of a spectacle but just in like a more boring way, I suppose you can say.
Like it's still so impressive to watch how good he is on a bike. And I think a great race that I love watching was Lombardia this year. And it's like you really are seeing Quinn Simmons like give everything but you just know that like >> oh yeah have power for that as well.
>> You just know it's like beautifully calculated in the most boring sense from UAE behind that they just got him and they just like it's like a slow death almost like you know it's inevitable but you're like surely he's not going to catch him on his climb and then >> you watch makes him look like he's not moving. But >> I think that's the hard bit for the the spectator. You really want to see a close battle and people get a lot of a kick out of like two rivals going at it.
>> My Mrs. Sarah uh who you haven't met, I'm sure you meet her at some point. She went over to Lumber as a guest of Vizma this year >> and she said it was phenomenal like the access behind the scenes like in the she I don't know what car she was in if she was in team car one or two whatever but they had her in the car for a little bit drop her to the feed zone race comes past pick her up and said it was just the atmosphere on the climbs it was you rode lumber this year didn't >> no I've been down to do it my both years and I've been sick or very tired both years so ended up racing the day after and were out in Italy for that period though, weren't you?
>> Yeah, I was. I literally was out in Italy, was sick, got flew home and then they needed me last minute for the day after Lombardi and I was back over again. So yeah, I've kind of finished the season on my knees kind of two years in a row.
So >> it's been on the cards, but just hasn't hasn't got around to completing it yet. So >> when you say finished the season on your knees two years in a row, what like what do you think's gone has something gone wrong? Like is that an expression or you actually have finished it on your knees?
No, I think it's more like it's just comes into that September, October period of sickness where it's just immune system's kind of low. You've been at race weight for quite a while. >> Yeah.
>> You did quite a few race days. You've been on a lot of camps. The energy is starting to like kind of fade away and you're kind of >> both mentally and physical.
>> Yeah, I think so. And you're clinging on to like I mean my first year as a pro was more than 70 race days straight straight out of under 23s and I'm >> mad, isn't it? >> Yeah.
And it's like I did my first granter and then decided I'm going to try and keep this form to worlds. So I took the Monday off and just got straight back into it and tried to hold like form for 10 more days to Zurich. What >> was your first grand tour of >> VA 24?
>> Well that what a brutal >> Yeah. >> It was it was a really hard one as well. It was like 40 degrees for the first six seven days all in the south of Spain.
Last week of August first ever Grand Tour. Didn't know what to expect. constant stress about like will I make it pass another day you know >> and you know you're obviously well able to go uphill with the best riders in the world I think a grand tour is a totally different experience depending on the type of rider you are like Mullen was saying to me going to the Jurro you're 80 plus kilograms it's like going bike packing for the week you're just waiting for a climb and then you're like grand I'll just yeah >> tap in here for the day >> yeah luckily for me like it's not not the worst stage when it looks like a pretty hilly day out but I think uh for some of the bigger guys definitely not easy to hack around for three weeks but I think that honestly the riders that deserve the most credit like if you see some of the sprinters that are really they're digging properly deep to finish 30 minutes down on a stage most riders most spectators don't see that but they get back to the bus and they've given just as much as the rider it's won if not more >> yeah like I hated that Netflix Unchained I think almost every cycling fan didn't like Unchained because it I don't know I had this cool opportunity to tell the you Know when cycling makes no sense at the start.
Like again back to my Mrs. Sarah starting to watch cycling. You know I was almost trying to brainwash her so I wouldn't have to fight for remote control.
So like no no it's really good. I'll explain what's happening. So you're explaining what's happening.
She's like makes no sense. People are just cycling along. And then slowly slowly it starts to make sense.
>> And then you have that moment going, "Oh, I actually know what's going on. It really makes sense." >> Yeah.
>> And you fall in love with the sport and like you know like we both have and it probably happened to you at an early age. Same for me. But I just felt like Netflix had that chance to give that moment >> to the masses to go, "Oh, that's why cycling's magical.
" >> Yeah. >> And instead of just like almost picking away at the sculpture to reveal something that's really cool, they tried to manufacture drama. It's like, you don't need to manufacture.
It's already there in the time. It's there in the sacrifice to the 80 kilo lads trying to get over a climb. It's >> just just shine a light and look in the right places and it has all the drama it needs.
I think that's the thing like endur endurance sport doesn't really have that like one hour highlight show kind of feel to it. It has to have that crescendo of the reason they're tired at the end of this climb is because they did 210k before this climb. And uh that's the I think that was the part that Netflix just want to race past and just quickly skip to the climb where they're just attacking each other full gas and it's just all all biz all the time like full gas and that's not really cycling.
Like there is some boring stages. There is some days that people are like why is it 210k? But I think for example the JRO that's what accumulates the fatigue that so on day nine you have this proper battle in the mountains cuz people have eight days of solid riding on a six-hour bus transfer after the stage keeping your >> toes.
Correct. Like it's easy to say oh the stage could have been 2 hours shorter. It would have been way more exciting but then I think you would get to Friday and it wouldn't be that you wouldn't be as tired as you could have been.
So yeah, as you say, I think there's a lot more to just cycling than the kind of sunflowers and the castles and the block of color moving along the French roads. Like there is, believe it or not, some tactics to to it and it's not just an individual sport, which some people assume that it is. How hard's the bits we don't see?
Like the post stage, trying to get food down, you the transfers, how stressful is the hotels are notoriously [ __ ] in France and Italy and Spain. >> Uh yeah, I suppose that's sometimes like the less glamorous side. Um, you have some great hotels, you have some terrible hotels.
And I think it's just kind of accepting that like not every town can have 18 fivestar hotels is going to put up every World Tour team and it's all going to be sunshine and >> real dibs on them. T >> I think they honestly share them around. I think I haven't done the tour yet, but I know they have like this five, four, three, two star model and every team gets uh kind of an even allocation of different hotels.
Obviously, they might come at different days, but across the full three weeks, I think it works out pretty even for all teams. >> And do you bring mattresses and pillows? >> Our team do pillow pillows and also the eight sleeps.
>> Oh, using the eight sleep? >> Yeah. >> Use that at home as well.
>> Yeah. >> What's that like? >> It's lovely.
>> Pricey. You didn't pay for it. >> I did.
No, I haven't looked at the price. So, >> yeah, I think they are pricey. I had a look at one a while ago.
I was like, >> yeah, spicy. >> It is a bit of a game changer. >> Is it actually?
>> It's really good. Like I love a cold bed, but I don't like being cold, if that makes sense. Like I like getting into a cold bed and then you can adjust it so it's getting a little bit warmer.
>> Very bougie. >> Yeah. And then it get Yeah.
You get get you into the deep sleep and then it like warms back up as you're getting getting ready to wake up. So it kind of wakes you up before the alarm goes off almost. >> I don't know.
Does it >> You got a little vibrator in the side that kind of wakes you up in the morning. It's like an alarm that just buzz vibrator part. >> No, it's just you can double tap turn it off.
No noise. >> I don't know. Something maybe I'm a bit traditional, but something about sleeping on a battery just feels like it might be good for me.
>> Yeah, it's almost like a water bed. It's like it's quite nice. >> I >> It's It's like a mattress topper.
It's not >> This has turned into an eight ad, but I did hear you can actually do different temperatures on different sides of the bed. >> Yeah, this is something my girlfriend loves because she likes a warm side of the bed and I don't. >> So, you can split it down the middle and we have like a Katy half and a Dar half.
>> Right. I'm going to get I'm getting one. and get one.
>> Yeah, they're pretty they're pretty useful. >> Uh I'm going to get one all of a sudden I'm going to be able to ride six watts a kilo like you. >> I don't think it Yeah.
adds too much onto the power. But definitely for a good night's sleep it's worth it. >> It would be interesting to track though on you know you're using Whoop.
I'm using Ultra Human. It like having that data to see how well you slept. I I don't actually know what to do with the data still like yeah >> you know I'm working with some cool coaches this year.
Alex Kamier and Ian Fieler helped me on coaching and I've never got a message saying change your session cuz you didn't sleep well. >> Yeah. I mean the group we use is mainly for our doctors to be honest and the only reason that they'll get in touch with me or any writer on the team that is is like if we've had like a block of they're kind of more looking at the trend view >> trend.
Yeah. If it's looking like really not recovering and it's like high heart rate, high respirator respiratory rate for like four or five days in a row and your recovery is in the red, they'll just give you a quick call and be like, "How are you feeling?" >> Like, are the are these sensations matching up to the values we're seeing on Whoop and then it's at that point where you say, "No, I feel fine.
" Or it's at that point you see, yeah, I feel a little bit of a sickness coming on and then it would be, "Okay, rest day." But if it's just taken along yellow green and um >> because you've seen some of the best performances when it's saying like you look at some of the some cool studies on you know grand tour stage winners. Yeah.
>> And looking at the correlation between that and heart rate variability stuff and they're in the gutter on a lot of the marks >> and then they're putting out PBS across multiple power durations and it's like what's happening there? Yeah, it's really interesting actually because something I also know from my own experience what a lot of other people have spoke about is they do some of their best 20 30 slightly longer duration PBS on the third week of a grand tour. >> Yeah.
>> And I don't know whether that's the course that allows it or just the the buildup of fatigue that your body really adapts quite quickly um to no one's really able to fingerpoint >> why that's the case. It's interesting implications for the idea of taper though on how much fatigue you should carry into an a priority event >> because definitely I think it's very personal as well. I know if I go into a race and I feel too fresh going into it.
I prefer to feel a little bit more fatigued than a little bit more freshness. I feel like I just I don't have the work done or something and it plays on me because the mental and physical are so interconnected on the bike. >> I feel like I'm undercooked if I'm too fresh going in.
>> Yeah. I also don't like the undercook feeling. Like something I only really learned at the Jurro this year was I took really easy day on the first race day and then was told to ride the TT easy the next day.
And then stage 11 or the second day after the first rest day I was just so fresh. Like I was like I've just read one rode 1 hour and then a 25m minute TT so easy that >> I just got to the first climb and I >> What's easy like zone three? >> I mean maybe riding the TT at 310 or 320 watts.
just top us on two where he's on three. >> Yeah, a bit of like it's not hard for a time trial. You're not putting yourself through too much exertion.
>> But then the next day I was like, "Okay, this didn't work for me." And the second race day I decided, "Okay, we we just switch it up." Spoke with my coach and we were like, "Let's do some tempo, keep the body moving, do two hours, two and a half hours.
" >> And I felt much better the next day. And just that routine for my body works well. And we've got some riders on the team like mel honory who will like no 45 minutes spin to the cafe at 150 watts stop little coffee and just really cruise home.
So I think it just got to find what works for you and there's no perfect answer on it. >> There's a business idea in creating an app wherever you are to show you the best coffee shop within a certain range. I'm like pros will definitely use this on a rest day.
It's like, >> yeah, we've learned from from Al Green like European Coffee Trip. Great app. >> European coffee trip.
>> Yeah, it just basically shows up all the specialtity coffee places nearby. So, >> yeah, I'm not really the the root or the coffee finder. Uh, coffee places.
Yeah, coffee fan. So, >> coffee place in Dublin. I need to bring you to it.
>> So, a few months ago, a training partner of mine, we're nowhere near the coffee shop. And he's like, "Uh, bro, we need to go to this coffee shop." And brings me back into the city.
It's like the world's most expensive Americano. It's like €14 or something for Americano. >> But when you check this out, next time you're up and go, it's like >> this fell in a lab coat is coming out and he's like with the Bunson burner heating stuff up, mixing things together.
And I felt a bit spacey cycling home after. It was like a mushroom trip or something. A >> good flat white honestly is fine for me.
Like uh I'm not really that knowledgeable about I like the taste of a good coffee, but I'm not going to be telling you that you ground it too finely or not not finely enough. So, >> I've gone full back full lackl mode on it now where I'm just getting Maxwell House and boy on the kettle at home and it's like I don't know. It's the >> when what's the an Irish philosopher has this idea of like whenever you're on the side of the majority, it's time to pause and reflect.
It's like when everyone's talking about flat whites and >> you've got to be the coarseness of the grind. I'm like Maxwell House is where we're at. Nes Cafe Gold.
>> So, if you look back on last season, is there lessons to learn? >> Yeah, I think there's always lessons to learn and I think that's how you become like a better version of you is there's always no one's doing anything perfectly and there's like look at every single year of cycling and there's always something that's improved from one year to the next. Whether that's rim brakes or discs, whether that's different group set, whether that's putting on a single ring, whether that's skin suits, arrow helmets.
I mean, there's it's a constantly evolving process. And I think the moment you think that you've done it all, it's the moment that you fall off the pedestal. So are you when you look back at last year, are you looking back on it through a bunch of different lenses kind of going like nutritionally?
What can I get do better? Equipment, what can I do better? Yeah.
>> Training, what can I do better? Lifestyle, what can I do better? What what's the other lenses you're looking at that trip?
>> I think you just pretty much named them all. I think there's always small improvements to be made across that kind of vast range of things that encompass your daily life. Um, for me, I mean, I've switched coach this year.
We have a new bike coming. We have a new group set coming, new clothing manufacturer coming. >> Oh, Raf is gone.
Yeah, that's a big one for EF. I know. >> That broke the internet.
>> Yeah, it's I think it was nine or 10 year kind of partnership and it's what a lot of people know. It's about the the Palace collab or, you know, the the Jirro swap out kits with the ducks on the helmet. >> Yeah, the ducks on the helmets.
It's like sticks out with a lot of people and I think that's what resonates with >> the average cyclist that's in chatting about cycling. They remember those kind of wacky things that maybe maybe they didn't win a win a stage in the first week, but they were like, "Oh yeah, they rocked up to a triple T with >> the ducks on their head." >> It's almost like if you're not going to win a stage, you need to have a duck on your helmet.
>> Yeah. Yeah. I mean, it's what works.
I mean, we're still chatting about it. I don't know how many years on. >> I don't know who won >> the opening stage.
I have no idea either, >> but I can remember the duck on the helmet. It's uh Did you ever watch the Diary of a CEO podcast? >> Uh I've read the book.
Haven't watched the podcast. >> I was actually I was going to reference the book. So he has this idea of a big blue slide in the book in one of the chapters where he had a marketing company >> and he said he made the dumbest investment ever.
This huge slide in the office. >> Yes. >> And for years after everyone would just come to see the blue slide.
So he got millions of free publicity from companies Forbes or something coming to take a picture of the big blue slide. >> Yeah. EF do seem to think about the big big blue slide.
>> Yeah, >> 100%. >> That's the duck. It's the collab.
>> Do you see that being in like cuz that feels like a part of the you know back where we're from the document that governs the country. It's bun rock the hair and the constitution of Ireland. It's like almost is there the constitution of EF the values of EF.
That big blue slide seems to be ingrained in the values of EF. >> Do you worry with a new clothing brand coming in that that's going to change or is it important to you even that it stays? >> No, I think it'll definitely change something.
I think the ethos of the team is always the strongest and I think it was that kind of feedback from the team that kind of went to Rafa and back. You know, it was like a rebound and I think EF will always try and do something a bit different to every other team. And that's their marketing strategy.
It's it's how we race. It's a little bit different. It's not traditional.
Uh and it's always trying to find really find the best out of riders that maybe aren't the best. You know, it's you can't just go out and buy the best sprinter, the best climber, the best classics guy. And it's kind of building a team around writers that can really gel together.
Find a group that works all in for certain rider and we're happy to do it, you know. >> And is there is there good crack good cohesion in the group? >> I think there's super camaraderie in the team to be honest.
I think that's one of the things that the team do really well. Like there's so many nations spread across our team and somehow we all collectively see that as a way to get to know each other better. Um because Carropaz was a little bit of a when that got announced not sure was it three years ago now it didn't feel like a EF signing.
It felt like a >> you know he'd already won a grand tour. It was like he's one of the big names of this generation going into EF. >> What What's that been like being teammates with a Grand Tour winner?
>> Yeah, I think I've actually had a pretty big working relationship with Richie. I think we actually get on really well. He's kind of a quiet leader, but it's something that I like.
Um, and the two grand tours I've did have been for him >> out of the way. >> Um, well last year, Jurro this year. He came away with a fourth last year and a third this year.
And I think at the J we really proved that he could have won that grand tour and it really hung in the balance of big stage 20 that everyone's like, "Oh, this could be the day. One stage 16, he's looking like the strongest." Kind of got that >> cunning older experience this year.
>> Yeah. 2025. >> That was Finestra.
>> Yes. >> Ah, that was a great stage. >> Yeah.
I mean, we came in with this kind of massive plan of just bomb the first 5 minutes, get rid of every UAE teammate and see what see what Richie can do. And I mean, I've honestly watched that climb back. It's one of the few race I've watched more than once.
And I think I've watched it maybe five or six times and every time it just like kind of breaks my heart a bit to like to be on the bus post. We were on like a full communal bus post stage like it wasn't our team bus. >> Yeah.
cuz we were getting transferred to the airport to fly to Rome. And yeah, he was just I mean dejected figure I think like he really knew what could have been. And to be part of that day where everything went so right up until the moment where uh Del Toro latched onto his wheel on that claim is just it's kind of hard to look back on to be honest.
>> And how far off following Yates is he just >> Oh, I don't think he's far off following Yates at all. I think he was stronger than Yates. I think just the the cancel out culture of just Del Toro not riding, Richie not pulling because Del Toro is not pulling and then you have W that just literally slipped into the breakaway as the last man across and in the morning.
>> There just so many factors that Yeah. kind of pained me a bit. >> Yeah, it's actually nice hearing the other side of that story because you we have painted this and I'm sure the history books will paint it as this epic visma.
Yeah, >> tactical master plan, >> but Yates might have been only a percent stronger >> than Richie and Del Toro, >> but then when that cancel culture came out between the two of them, that gap just balloons and then you've wed like maybe the best rider of generation. Maybe the best rider ever to have up the road. >> Yeah.
As a domestique as a helper, I mean generational. >> Like I I jam this one in the WhatsApp group or on Twitter or something recently. I was like I put up like w greatest domestique of all time.
It's like every like he's not a domestic. It's like but he is on occasion. >> On occasion.
Yeah. >> And when he is >> he's a great >> he's the goat. Domestique.
>> I mean if there's someone you want to have on your team that's going to give give you give you their all. It's >> like do you remember he wrote Had off the whale for Jonas's second tour win. Clean off the whale.
>> I mean he also dro only man to dropped Tad this year. I mean he's not he's not a dam domestique in that regard but >> and he'll win a bunch of sprint like he won a double stage in one two >> and a bunch sprint on the sea sal >> and then he can ride the best riders in the world off on a client like yeah >> great great guy >> what what a man >> what a man out on eight sleep >> aid sleep we'll keep him off the sleep >> yeah he don't need that h but yeah it's it's interesting to hear the other side of that finestra story because >> yeah it does get painted as this epic Visma day out, which it was, but >> you weren't far off. >> Yeah, I think it was an epic Visma day out.
It was an epic EF day out. It was pretty big UAE failure day out. I think there was just so many things that happened on that day that you could you literally couldn't have put money on the bookies to to bet what could have happened pre-stage.
It was just like full explosion at the bottom of the climb and then everything completely reversed by the top. Yeah, it was a wild stage to watch uh chatting FYI and we're talking about do you remember Froom's finestra? Yeah.
>> Like insane as well and >> I never understand why Fum gets stick on social media. I know he hasn't delivered like the last few years but coming to the end of his career like >> pile a grand horse like four tour to France's two one one two well >> like >> yeah I mean he was the best cyclist through my whole school school life I think >> yeah it was pretty >> best cyclist in my life as well but that finestra win was insane >> but to see the same thing almost happening what is it 10 years later >> like >> playbook book rolled out. It's like, come on, we had to see that coming, lads.
>> I think it's one of those only things that you could have seen on the last stage where everyone just threw the threw the full book at the stage. And if it had have been stage 12 or 15, you might not have seen as many kind of fireworks or explosions or we probably wouldn't have did the things that we did. >> Yeah.
and UAE wouldn't have did the things they did, but they'd almost just been complaced on first and second that they were forgetting about anyone behind. >> But was it just me or did Del Toro not look too pissed off to lose that jersey on the finish line? I think he was cheered.
>> I think in the moment he really thought he I mean I don't know. I mean, I'm just speculating, but I think in the moment he really didn't think he'd lost much. I think he thought, I've had my days in pink.
I'm 21 years old. I've had a great jurro, >> which is awesome. not going to ride Richie to the line and then him beat me at the finish.
And I think there was I mean we don't know unless we ask him, but I think there was a lot of things in his head that a second at the Jirro at 21 after 10 days in pink. I mean, if he had been offered at the start, it would have been taken it with both hands. But I think it's what he lost and what >> the bigger public seen as what could have been his chance to win his first grand tour of many or >> maybe never again.
It was just that that risk that hung in the balance of >> well because it's almost like the psychology of like you think about the psychology of a podium in worlds or Olympic games bronze medal is a much better medal to get in a lot of ways than a silver medal is to get because silver medal you're left thinking of what could have been. Bronze medal you're left thinking of what could have been going I almost wasn't on the podium like I've got a medal out of this super result. >> Yeah.
silver medal. It's like, oh, you know, if I got that sprint a little bit better, if I played this a little bit better, you're not really thinking about fourth when you're second. I feel like Del Toro fell into that a little bit.
>> Yeah, I feel like he was holding the gold medal up until the the last day. Like Rome is is a procession and if he had have just held on to it for 35 more, he was going to be the winner of the Jurro. And I think that's what most people saw.
You're a pretty solid Jurro though. Like you're front of the race at key points. You're popping up and >> I'm flicking on Euros board.
Well, there's Darren those doing his thing in front of the bunch while I'm here eating donuts on big screen. >> Yeah, it's it's been fun. I have to say the two grand tours is the two races that I've felt like a lot of satisfaction from as any kind of youth rider growing up.
You know, the tour, you know, the Jurro, you know, the Voya, I mean Olympics also. and to do both like to check off the Vela and the Jurro as national champion uh for both of them. >> I forgot you were a national champ for that and that was a lovely national champs jersey as well.
>> I mean two lovely bikes, two lovely kits like first time doing a grand tours for both and they were both as national champion. It was like big sense of pride to be honest like I personally maybe didn't get as much out of it as I would have kind of set myself up to get but I think >> like how do you mean you set goals for yourself and started a race? I'm just always I suppose I'm probably expecting quite a lot of myself all the time, but just had some bad days where I just underperformed or couldn't give to the team what I would have liked.
And then also some days where I felt like I was really at my best. And uh yeah, if I was asked to get in the break, I was in there and I was waiting for Richie on top of a climb and getting them bottles and gels and doing what I could into the bottom of the final climbs. Things like this that >> yeah, it gets forgotten about pretty quickly.
But >> how hard to get into the break? pretty. >> Yeah, >> because we don't really ever get to see that as >> pretty hard.
>> Like most of the time they don't televise the early skirmish to get into the break. You just kind of joined on air and it's like >> five lads up the road tapping it out. You don't see the absolute war to get into that break.
>> Yeah, it depends. Like definitely on like the big kind of satellite rider days where it's going to be up one climb, down, up another, down, and then finish on a climb. Those are the days that if you want to be in, got to push some numbers to be in.
I mean, there's obviously some TV breakaway days where you can clip off and everyone's like, "Enjoy your 200k up the road." >> But if it's a a bit of an epic day, you're definitely working for it. >> You know, I'm genuinely proud of my little man cave, my escape, my safe place.
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Wahoo building the better athlete in all of us. How does the satellite rider thing work? Is it like when does the decision actually get made that that's the break of the day?
And who's making that call? Is it the two three big GC teams? Yeah, I mean it's usually the the leader of the the race.
It's their team that's making all the shots on we don't want this person in the break. We don't mind if that person's in. We don't want this team at all in.
We're happy for five riders to go. We're happy for 10 riders to go. And that changes from race to race, from stage to stage >> and say if you take that finestra stage >> like how's W getting into that break?
>> He literally got got away through a little cobble street in a town. Break was gone about 20 seconds up the road. Bunch is starting to slow up through the town and he just accelerates on the edge of the cobbles 400 meters before the edge of the town.
Bridges across on a big main road. Everyone sits up, goes back for bottles. >> But is that not a >> stop and that was it?
>> Is that like a UAE [ __ ] the bed in that moment? Like is their job there that day not let W into that break? >> Correct.
In my opinion, yes. And I think if you watch back any of the Jirro breakaway fights, >> UAE really took a backseat in all of the breakaway formation. I think they had this feeling that they had it all under control for every stage.
So they never stressed about breakaway formation and it was honestly impressive to to not stress like they just sat at the back and just there was one stage in the early I think second week where we had three or four EF riders in the front group and no UAE riders. >> That's >> and it all ended up all coming back together and they didn't seem too stressed about it at all. But >> but that's either total confidence or total stupidity.
>> I think it is just total confidence. I think they really think they do their thing right, there's no break on a win. Um, which is >> which statistically proved quite accurate for them.
>> I think the part they can kind of rattle along at >> it's pretty impressive. >> Uh, yeah, >> it's Yeah, they've just so many riders who are like I'm thinking >> yeah, you've got like >> you can round them off. They've got I mean some of the a lot of the top 10% of the world pelathon is in that team and I mean they're all exceptional bike riders and I think >> doesn't even get brought to go races like >> I think people forget like most riders in the world or if not all are all pretty great bike riders but there's that next tier up and a lot of them fall into that category of >> what separates the that subdivision within the world tour cuz for me or anyone listening the World Tour.
It's like I had this recently. Lavick was on the podcast and I'm saying like the World Tour and Gravel Riders are they're not the same. The World Tour it's it's the 1% of the 1%.
You think who's winning? You know, you are super talent coming through at U23. The whole Cyclone world's talking about Darren Rafferty U23 coming through.
Then you step into the world tour. We It's easy for us to forget what the world tour is. It's that talent at U23 that everyone's talking about.
All of them are in the world tour. >> Correct. >> For like, you know, Dumbar was this mega talent one and Flanders and stuff as a junior coming through and you're in the world tour with him and all the other mega talents.
So, it's like the 1% of the 1% of the 1%. What separates that from the next 1% up? >> Yeah, I think actually someone that put it to me great right from the off was Bio.
um kind of joined the team first November camp just having a chat you know he was like oh what have you been up to as under 23 and I was like oh yeah had good couple of seasons been with Hagens Burman did such and such won this race blah blah blah he was like oh yeah that doesn't really matter here everyone's done that and I was like kind of a little bit taken aback cuz you have a little sense of pride in your own results but it was also very true >> you have to realize that every single rider in the world tour is junior national champion They've won a road race. They they're good under 23. You don't just rock up and be the best rider because you won an under 23 race.
So, I mean, I think that's the harsh reality of the sport. If you're at the top, there's going to be always a lot of people better than you. But there you have to remember that there's also a lot of people not at the level.
So, yeah. >> Can you bridge that gap? Is that a compounding the good habits that you're doing and just trying to iterate season after season or is it a genetic gap?
No, I think I'm definitely looking more towards Ben for that kind of seeing the progress as possible, you know, like really been a great example actually. >> Yeah, he's really consistent with I've I've known him for a while. I've seen him come through Trinity, through Wiggins, through the steps to EF to year on year improvement.
And I think that's something that's good to see for everyone because >> is Ben like because when you know when I chat to him, >> he's just, you know, he's he's humble. He's a little bit dismissive, but you know, he hasn't got there without being fanatical in the background. >> Like how do you get a glimpse of what that is?
And are you able to emulate it then? >> I think that's every cyclist. I think some people come off as like more witty or chatty or but I think behind the scenes everyone takes it super seriously.
Yeah. I mean we are like who who wants to go ride 3 and a half thousand ks in 3 weeks or ride in 40°ree heat for 5 hours? It's not really what you'd choose to do if you were just a healthy normal.
>> But you know what s cyclist mentality for me is you ever climb champs? >> Yeah. >> And you finish the hill climb champs you're literally puke and no oxygen.
Like I rode oh I can't remember it's like 2013 or 2014 or something like second in the hill climb champs back home >> full gas over the line nearly collapsing sick on the ground >> you know see me dad at the finish line he's like how'd you go like I had a bit more you mean you had a bit more nearly needed to go to hospital >> that's the cycling mentality where it's like >> you're doing from the outside it looks like you're the most dialed human in the world and you're like ah there's a bit more there's always more in there. I think that's the thing. It's like this concentr strive to be a bit better is what is what makes people better.
If you just sat and thought one morning, oh, I've kind of done enough. That's when you start regressing pretty quickly. So, yeah, definitely just picking away at small improvements, trying to be a couple of percent better than you were last year or doing slightly better at a certain race than you were in the previous.
I think that's that's kind of the trajectory. Sounds like the bunch is a metaphor for cycling progression almost. Like if what's one of the things you would say to a kid early as soon as you get into the bunch?
Look, you need to be moving forward in the bunch because if you're not moving forward, you're moving back. >> Yeah. Yeah.
No, it's so true and they still say it with us as well, but it's >> it's that with fighting into all the key spots of races where you're, you know, everyone's fighting for the same place, everyone's moving forward, someone has to move back, you know, everyone can't move forward at the same time. >> So yeah, I mean, if you're not holding your position moving forward, you are How how good are you without rough and humble in the bunch? >> I don't mind it.
It's probably it's not my strongest asset, but it's definitely something I'm not bad at. Um it's rare that I'm like caught out on bad positioning, but it's definitely something I'm keen to work on as well. >> Yeah.
What makes the lads like Bling was talking about his frustration sometimes with the team? >> Yeah. >> Where he almost just doesn't get it.
He's like, you know, I I told you to move. You didn't move. like now I'm fourth whale.
You were meant to be fifth whale or third whale or whatever and you're just not here. I said it does get frustrating at times and he he just then he has to step back and go look it's not as easy for everyone as it is for me to do this. >> Correct.
I think it's it's very easy for the better riders to think to like their teammates like why why didn't you just move up? But if you're trying to like drag race A green or Afeni into into like I mean into like the first junction at such and such race, it's pretty difficult. It's not it's not like oh you just didn't try.
>> Yeah. >> You know, you're doing maybe 450 460 watts for 2 3 minutes at 65 or 66 kilos going nowhere >> and you're going back. You're going properly back.
So >> I don't really know what to say on that one. I mean we got great guy that does it, Sweeney. I mean a lot of people know him for it.
very underrated rider from what I hear. Like when I chat with him, one of lads on the podcast and I say like who's an underrated writer. His name comes up a lot.
>> Yeah. I think I think he's becoming much less underrated. I think a lot of people rate him a lot.
You look at any of the classics where Ben's been well positioned. >> He's your man, but obviously someone else has to take over the role before that or the bit before that. And it >> I think that's the thing with Cyclon.
You kind of only see the winners mostly. But yeah, it's 30 man team. There's always races that people are at that are putting just as much work in.
And I think that's the bit where a little bit of talent comes in. Like someone like Bling, he's just got that, you know, like he get gets to the bottom of Quebec, he can just polish off a win. He's got it in him.
And uh >> when he comes around for a coffee, he's got that bit. It's like there's something cool about him or something. It's like >> like sometimes they just got that little percent or two extra and >> it's hard to It's not in a formula.
It's not not in a training plan. They just >> Yeah, exactly. It's a little bit of uh >> it's the magic dust.
>> Yeah. They've just they've just got got a little bit of extra. Like I look at uh you know kind of I'm not sure if you over overlapped it all with them but like Valerde like into the key parts of our dens for 15 years >> Verde's top three wheel going into the bottom of the mirror and it's like >> how like you don't see him for the entire race and then he pops up >> like someone sent me a mate sent me on a clip from tour to France uh I can't even remember what year it was like Stefan Schumacker and I was on the attack with Gsteiner.
So, it was a good few years. >> Yeah. Back >> premier.
I don't even know these names. >> You were just getting bored. Yeah.
He's a notorious doper back in the day. He was glowing. But the the race is just like popping off all over the place on this slight uphill finish.
You're not seeing anyone until 150 to go in Valer just pops up and you're like the man is just in position. Yeah. >> Non-stop.
Like perpetually in position. >> Yeah. Some people can just sniff it out.
But I feel like, as I've said already, it's a lot easier to be in position if you're the strongest rider. Like, it's a lot easier to be the big fish and kind of roam around and be like, "What's people stressing about? I can move up no problem.
" But if you got an extra 80 watts to do >> and it's not an issue to you and you can recover, then I mean, you can see lots of races where people are strung out in one line and Tat's just been back from a piss and he just cruises up past everyone and you're kind of looking down going, >> is that heartbreaking? pretty hard, but he's just kind of cruising up in the wind back to the front. Then you're like, >> is that just like soul destroying?
>> It's not soul destroying cuz I don't I mean, as I say to a lot of people, like I'm in the race with TD, but I'm not racing Tad, >> you know, me and him are not we're not racing each other. Uh we were in the same event, but yeah, I'm there helping someone else to try and rival him like Ben or something at Armst. But >> yeah, >> I remember having a moment there, honestly.
racing in Canada. It was like I had many moments where I knew I wasn't going to make a bike rider, but this was definitely one of them. I was just pinned in the gutter in some 2.
I think it was like to boast or something pinned in the gutter super hard. Look, I'm sitting 380 390 whatever in the whale like pinned can't move knowing I probably should be moving up. And then I hear this like every the whole bunch of single file in the gutter slight cross went then here died and they want a ball.
I'm like, "Uh, I can't even take my hands off the bar." He go hardly turn me head to look at him. No, no, you're kill.
And he just like goes, "Cool." And he just like rides up the full line, just handing bottles out to people. The full line with a jersey full of bottles.
>> Yeah. >> I'm like, like he's second on GC, I think, at the time as well. I'm like, >> what?
What is going on here? Like there's different layers to this game. >> Correct.
There is there's different levels to the game. And it's something you could only start to see from the inside. Like a lot of people will just be like, "Oh, why didn't you just follow this person on the attack?
" Or, "Why did you get dropped from the breakaway?" As if you just kind of chose to. >> Sure.
Ben saying when I had him on, he's like people always say to him like, >> you know, "Why are you not trying to follow Tady?" And he's like, >> "I am trying like eight watts of K or whatever it was trying to follow." >> I think that's the thing like everyone's giving their best.
And I think that's something we've done quite well with the team with like debriefs and kind of planning. It's like we can only get as much as we can get out of you. So, if that means we need to use you earlier or whatever, we're going to do it.
And at least you'll get what you need to get out of yourself earlier. You'll see someone else for longer. And then if they've got something more extra to give, they can give it.
And that's kind of that game of chess of using your writers correctly without just kind of doing it on pure force all the time. >> We'll we can introduce a new section of the podcast. We'll call it Patty Corner.
We better talk some Irish cycling stuff because it's phenomenal year for you know you the team Ben like a podium in the world seems pretty unbelievable like I'm like I was alive but I'm too young to remember Roach in ' 87 >> winning world. So that just feels like you know something from a world I I don't know. >> I've never seen him racing.
This is the first time that it's been like, you know, someone I know and someone I've raced against. To watch them stand on a podium in the worlds is pretty insane as a fan. >> What was it like to be a part of the team and like a key part of the team?
>> It's pretty wild to be honest. Like I think to be on an Irish team in Africa is already like >> Yeah. >> Where's the story?
>> Jersey. So cool. >> Yeah.
I think even more so this year there was just this there was just this feeling that it was going to go well and before it's like it's happened like there's been a few good results or whatever but this year we really beened through the kitchen sink at this event like it was his it was his goal after the tour like I'm focused on worlds end of story anything we need to get there we'll do it and we just built like a really solid team around him I think support network was great and uh everything went to plan like we had full faith in him. He had full faith in himself. >> Is he chill a lot to ride for?
>> Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.
I think >> no drama. >> I think that's what earns him definitely more respect in EF and probably also on the Irish team is that he's not not demanding leader. And I think >> he just carries that kind of persona that you want to help him out.
You know that he's got it and he deserves the support and he's he's going to back it up when it comes to it. So yeah, I mean obviously I wasn't there wasn't many finishers of the race, but to be able to stand in the pits and watch him go past every lap at the front of the race, it's pretty impressive. >> He he singled you out on the podcast as being very key in his performance in position him on the climbs.
Like the the goal as he told it going in was to use as little energy as possible on the climb. So that meant positioning well on the climb and riding the climb as easy as you could and just roll like lag climbing. >> Yeah, exactly.
And I think yeah, we spoke about it a lot in the days before about all sorts of possible strategies and basically we just came up with this thing that he just didn't want to touch the feed zone. Didn't want to get involved in the the chaos, the hecticness of it. And >> what is that?
Just safety wise. >> Just safety hassle, grabbing a museette, just opportunities for things to go wrong and basically just single me out like do you mind grabbing the bottles, making sure I have a mixing of water every lap or have enough gels. I don't need to carry them all from the start.
And I was like, yeah, sure. And uh obviously that burns a lot of energy and you can only do it for so long, but it's quite rewarding when you feel part of it. Like you know you're not going to win worlds or you're not going to podium yourself.
So if you're able to help someone else in that capacity of I'm going to make your life as easy as possible for 150k, it's quite nice. So >> there's something strange happening in endurance sports and cycling right now. Nobody's talking about Nomio, but everybody seems to be using it.
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>> Who was the So it was you, Eddie. >> Yeah. >> Rory, Ryan, >> Ryan, >> and obviously Ben.
Yeah, I didn't miss any. It was no one else was there. Five.
>> No, this is a big that's a big question. >> No, I think >> Archie wasn't. No, Archie was there.
>> No, Archie. No, I think that's us. >> I thought there was six.
I think there was supposed to be six and then Archie was a bit injured, so he didn't come. >> It would have been looked like a good course for Archie as well. >> Yeah, I think he would have been great.
He would have been a great addition. Would have been nice to have him there. Um, also Jamie would have been really good there.
again. [ __ ] like >> Yeah. >> Why are cycling like >> Yeah, >> we're not the Jokers anymore.
>> No, no, no. Definitely not. I think >> perception must be changing in the bunch as well.
Like, you know, Jamie's gone cough, Dinky stepped up, the picnic post. >> Yeah, >> Dylan Corkery, uh, Dumbar obviously on Q36, your EF, Ben's EF, like >> Yeah, it'll be good when we have it in the double digits. I feel like >> your brother's coming through as well.
Yeah, Adam, Seth, yeah, Connor Murphy, Gaffne's at Axon now as well. Like I feel like, yeah, it's definitely a nation that's being more looked at in terms of a scout scouting point of view and I think there was a lot of focus on the British riders for a bit and I think that's also transferred across to the Irish riders because they're just kind of looking in the same places and they've got that >> even generation coming behind you and your brother even looks good. Like I was out riding a couple of weeks ago with Matthew Walls won junior tour of Ireland last year, junior tour of Portugal last year and like >> he already looks like a bike rider.
Yeah. >> It's like he's >> chatting away to him, you know, in the front of the group ride and like you crack what are you up for this evening? He's like off to go home doing me homework.
It's like you forget he's still in school like >> cuz he's an adult on the bike. He looks like an adult. He handles the bike like an adult.
He >> real maturity in class looking as a bike rider, >> but you're the kid's still at school. >> Yeah, I think that's the thing to bear in mind. It's like a lot of these kids are kids.
Like I mean I'm not saying that as as if I'm some old person. I'm also not that old. Um but there is a lot of pressure on young people to be doing everything right.
And it's not it's not the most important thing in life either. There is more to life than just riding bikes. So yeah, I mean I was even speaking to my dad there recently about cycle crossing.
He was saying, "Oh yeah, there's actually some really nippy looking under 12s, 14s that look look look look pretty good. like nice little bit of flow to them like know what they're doing on the bike and there'll there'll always be more people coming through and I think this especially this season in particular with Ben at the tour people know the tour people know the yellow jersey to see an Irish rider in yellow and then come third there's a couple of things it's like oh maybe my kid will have a go at that maybe my son will get the bike out of the garage can't see me can't be me you know if you don't have those role models and you know I like the two boys so I don't want this to come across as sounding disrespectful but when you looked at Niko and Dan apart from the previous generation. I >> don't think I did.
I don't want to speak for you, but >> they didn't come up through the Irish system. Like Niko lived in France. Stan grew up in the UK.
You know, I know they're both super proud to put on the green jersey, but it's slightly different if you're a kid back home. >> Getting to see you, Archie, Eddie, the people who you literally raced with week after week because it's something about like rubbing shoulders with someone in a bunch sprint. You get second, he gets third.
But all of a sudden he's a world throw contract two years later >> and it's like >> I can do like I was racing him two weeks ago. If he can do that I can do that. Like Jamie now like you must have come up racing against >> Yeah.
>> Jamie and it's like he's looking at you now. Two years later he's signing Incidence. >> Mhm.
>> And it just seems to lift the tide back home. It's not impossible anymore. It's very doable.
Know someone that's done it. >> It's definitely not not impossible. And that that was kind of the thing that yeah is important to try and transfer to the younger writers.
Like if this is something you actually genuinely like doing and you enjoy it >> and it's something you see yourself >> capable of doing, then definitely throw yourself into it. There's no harm in giving >> two years of your life post school to to try and make it if that's what you want to do. >> Um but like don't come into it thinking it's going to be easy.
If you have the right mentality, I think you can you can definitely go pretty far with the sport. And it's it's not for them. And you're pointing across that, you know, cycling, you need to be from these exotic places or French towns or the Flemish culture to be a pro anymore.
It's like damn is us. Like it it's four Irish lads now. Like there's a scenario I can see in five, six years time where we've 10, 15 lads in the world tour.
>> Yeah, I can definitely see the double digits pretty soon. Definitely pre-2030 there should be definitely double digits in the world here which would be I think it'll be pretty good moment like if it's not just Dan and Nico it's like we've got count them on two hands more we need need >> it's not the exception anymore it's the rule >> yeah so um obviously it's still not a big it's not it's not the Dutch or the Belgians or the French or the Italians but it doesn't have to be either like we're >> small country >> able to have a few riders and be proud to have that and have a good nationals and spur on the next generation >> yeah and I wonder how big the Healey, you know, time will only tell how big the Healey effect is in that. How many kids are six years old watching the Champions League and then watching Ben Healey and going, you know what, I'll give cycling a bash instead of going all in on football.
>> Yeah, I think it's still pretty niche. Like, if I look at my own school kind of life, there's not many people talking about cycling. Like, we are because we're in it and we're immersed in the culture and that's all we think about probably most most days, but I think football, especially at home, GA takes a lot of writers.
uh away from the possibility of being a psychist. >> Lost a lot of good men to the guy. >> Yeah, it's I mean that's where I started.
It's it's what it's what people do from home and uh there's something pretty beautiful about the sport as well. Uh it's amateur. It's it's a national sport.
It's just so many things to it, but it it also takes away the opportunity to have like a great athletics runner or like I know like a really close neighbor of mine like Nick Griggs absolutely sensational runner. >> Yeah. Yeah, >> you know, European champion, under 20s, under 20s.
And it's like maybe if he'd stuck at soccer or whatever for a few more years, he might never have got into running and realized that he can be the best in Europe. >> Yeah. I think for anyone listening that doesn't appreciate how big the Irish sports are at home, like they're all that m likeuge.
A buddy of mine who has came back when I raced on the tandem, Peter Ryan, is gas, man. Like, you need to meet this lad sometime. He's standup comedy funny.
But, uh, Peter's on the back of tandem, but his story is pretty tragic, but also he just in only he can makes it just gas. He lost his eyesight when he was like 18 or 19 with genetic but he was playing Harland for Tipperari at the time. >> So I heard him public speaking about this and he's saying like you know I'm in the Tipperary team breaking in at 19.
He's like you know Harland's a big deal down Tipperary. I'm not sure if you realize how big a deal he's like but if you're 18 and you're in the Tipperary Horland team you're getting laid every night. >> If you're playing currently you're the man.
>> He's like you are getting laid every night with a different girl. >> Yeah. Yeah.
No, it's like >> that's not happening if you're on actions and anything. >> No, I'm definitely not. Like growing up through school, it's like people thinking like you psycho.
>> Who are you? Like Bradley Wiggins. Like that was just like the running joke and it's like well no I'm not.
But I think one of the realizations for me was like GCSE I'm 15 years old. >> All the lads are chatting about getting down to Aselone to play a game of football and I'm trying to get selected to go to Baku for the youth Olympics. And I'm like pretty big difference here.
like I'm kind of happy in my own lane. And uh yeah, I think from there that was like a big realization. My life's actually really not bad and I'm happy with the path that I'm choosing.
And then from there I kind of started to drop other sports and really focus on cycling cuz really started to see the pathway that was kind of out in front of me. >> You still connected with the club back home? >> Yeah.
Yeah. Yeah. >> It's Whalers.
>> Yeah. Island Wheelers. Yeah.
>> It's not a big club. >> It's not a huge club. I think now got like 125 130 members.
It's pretty big. >> Yeah. Yeah.
Um, >> anyone good coming up? >> Not really many youth at all, actually, unfortunately. Um, I think the sport is just a little bit expensive to get into.
We have a few young riders that are like really young, like under eights and tens that are like kind of sons and daughters of club riders that are getting involved in cycle lacrosse and doing a little bit, but not many on the road at the minute. It's a I think cycling broadly like UK, US, Ireland has gone through a weird stage and it's particularly painful obviously for us cuz it's back home but it's like with the growth we're seeing in like you were saying it could be double digits world tour in the next three to four years. >> Yeah.
>> And then we're seeing the domestic calendar is just like it's unrecognizable from when I was racing like week in week out in 2017 2018 and it's like we're missing most of the big races. is the Ross has gone from 8 days to 5 days. Tour of Volter's gone.
Tour to North's gone. Visit Mina's gone. It's like what's going on here?
Like >> yeah, I think it's a pretty big situation. I think it comes so many factors that it's not an obvious answer because everyone has a a different feeling on a different opinion and I think it's like the policing with the roads. I think it's the cost of entry fees, cost of living in general, price of bikes, just the effort that has to go into winning an A1 race that there's just so many aspects of do you want to go to an A3 race and get hammered by Conor Murphy?
Do you like it's >> Yeah, there's the categories need to get Yeah, I don't know. It's >> I mean, I've had a long thought on it and I have my own opinions, but >> go on. Yeah, >> give us the >> Yeah, I mean I think the point scheme for the A3's juniors should just kind of be a lot easier.
As soon as as soon as a junior wins one race, let them up to A2, A1 races. Um much smaller car. >> Why is that?
Because you don't want one junior just ragging on the rest of L and winning every week. >> I just I just don't want juniors thinking that they're like winning race every week so they're going to go abroad and win. Like you need to be a good A1 as a junior to be going across Europe and battling against >> Yeah.
>> If you're going to junior worlds, you want to be you want to be racing against Rafil. You want to be racing against Con at home. You you want to be racing against Ron O'Connor and trying to beat them on the climate ch Elliot.
If if you're not, then you're going to struggle at worlds. And I think that's somewhere where we hold back the riders and it's it should be a choice. Like if a junior is just starting out in the sport and they want to write A4, great.
Let them write A4. It shouldn't be you have to start in A3 and get a kick in or it shouldn't be you start in A3 and win every race for a whole season. And I think that was kind of something that held back the generation just above me of like Adam Ward and Brendan Flanigan and Kaher and Shay and they were just stuck in A3 hammering A3s for months on >> and that does nothing for participation of actual A3s who's like you know the dude who's a family and you know training six eight hours a week wants to race A3 then he shows up and a lad who's literally riding Europeans last week knocks bits out of he's like why am I going to spend >> 30 40 quid entry to drive across here get lit up on the first climb.
Yeah. >> And then be back in the car 10 minutes later on. >> I think I think just like we don't need to be starting bike racing on the first week of March.
Like the cheapest thing I've ever seen. >> Ireland's a cool place. And I think if you have racing from the 1st of April to the 31st of August, that's that's a great season.
>> But like the weather is a lot better in September than it is in >> March, even April. Like I've raced our Easter race. Like I finished that in the snow more times than I can count.
>> You can almost finish in the snow in July, too. So >> there's no point planned just on the weather, but I think >> definitely a more condensed calendar. Um >> I mean, >> but it's back to your EF thing which you talked about like you're acutely aware as a young rider of what it is you do.
Like you ride bikes to create attention and you sell that attention. >> You're very switched on and aware about that. >> We look at bike racing at home and we don't have a model for it.
It's almost like charity if you're ask like I spoke to the lad who uh >> Victus they used to sponsor the tour of Olter >> and he's like I love cycling it's very tax efficient for him to be involved in sponsoring cycling but he moved over and started sponsoring some rugby and he's like oh the access of getting rugby to give me tickets to come in dressing room meet the players and it's like he just wanted to feel a bit of love on out of cycling like stick him in a team car you know get him a yellow jersey if he spawn sponsor and it you know >> bring do a yellow jersey comes to his office the week after we just we've no we're not switched on to giving return on investment to anyone involved. >> Yeah, I think that's something that is definitely lagging behind in a bit. It's like no stadiums, everything's free to enter and that feeling of even the hospitality or the VIP access, you're not really getting much more than someone that just wants to rock up on the side of Carcasson and watch the race finish.
You know, you can >> you can pay and get a free glass of champagne and have your lunch made for you, but >> it's completely free if you want them to be. >> Scod brought me out to tour last year. >> Yeah.
>> Rock and roll, my friend. >> Yeah. >> Helicopter watching the stage in the helicopter.
Then they drop you ahead of the race in the helicopter and you get into the team car and you're in behind the brake and stuff. Then you bring you to the finish line gantry and they're like champagne and stuff right in there. I'm like, this is rock and roll.
>> That's living. I mean, I've never been a helicopter, so you're massive massively one up in me there, but >> you know, cuz they sent the message like, "Do you want to come to tour?" I'm like, "No, you're cool.
" Like, you know, being tour bike races, unless you're a bike racer, are [ __ ] Like, if you're a bike racer going to a bike race and you're not racing, it's just a [ __ ] experience. You're just like, "Oh, >> massively put my hand up on that one." >> Like, what am I doing here?
>> The only thing that I've enjoyed this year was going to to lose that I was I'd end up doing EF event there that just coincided with Ben going into yellow. >> That was epic. That was maybe the coolest.
I mean that and the Jirro on the last day in Rome were like Jirro in Rome day nine or 10 in to lose and worlds were like just three epic days out. >> But is that mad that you're going from being Ben's teammate and you know peer to almost turn into a fan that >> I wasn't turning into I was a massive fan. I'm a massive fan of Ben.
I don't mind saying that. Whenever I was there I was like this is so cool. like this guy's winning the tour right now and it's like I know him we're friends.
It's like growing up at school you would you didn't know Sir Bradley Wiggins like oh he won the tour comes up on your Sky News blah blah blah blah >> but like >> growing up with Sky News a lot more like as well. >> It's like it's Ben you know it's like we meet up for training rides we know each other. >> Do you train with Ben?
>> Yeah. >> So who's the training group? >> I mean train a lot with Archie and Lucas.
Uh two good friends on the team. Um Ben quite a bit. Uh Sweeny's up there in Andor as well.
James Shaw and Duel. Uh Duel's unfortunately moving to Vizma now. So >> James Shaw's EF again >> staying for another year.
Just announced it I think yesterday. He's had a bit of a battle. So >> yeah, he's on board for another year.
>> So you keep the training groups. >> We mix it up. I mean we've wrote I read I'm I'm not a big social butterfly.
I think Archie is probably one of the people that's like much more out there, much more extroverted. Even my brother more better at meeting up with other people. But kind of just getting the session done.
If a few people that are doing something similar, I'm keen to ride. >> Is that what you're looking at? Yeah.
You're looking at your session and kind of just texting the boys to the WhatsApp group. >> Yeah. I feel like if like me and Ben go out, we're kind of just on the pedals.
We know we need to do bit of chat, get the job done. I don't really like tapping along in a group of six or eight, not really getting the job done. Um >> yeah, it it's a frustrating feeling cuz you're like, I've given up the time, but I haven't exactly got the session >> correct meant to do.
I think for our lifestyle it's perfect opportunity on a rest day to meet up with someone or ride with people you don't want to ride with on another day that you're just like oh 180 watts for an hour and a half you keen and then you can just get someone you're just tapping along chatting and that's the perfect day to enjoy your day off essentially. >> Um but what do you like training wise? I know, you know, coming back from Nice last week, uh, hanging out with Eddie down there and them having Bling on the podcast and two of them train together and they train with Bling and Todd train together all the time and then Eddie seems to dip in and out with that group because he has a lot of structured boys are saying and so he trains with them on occasion, >> but Bling said he's doesn't really do intervals.
He just rides the terrain at Sanford Tad. They just meet up and kind of go, "What you feel like doing?" And then if they need to work on five minute climbs, they pick a route with some fiveminute climbs.
They'll ride them hard. But he said they're on the pedals. >> Yeah.
I think I think that's something I'm really trying to improve is like just being on the pedals because I think it's easy to coast away and do 200 watts and then come back from the right thinking, "Oh, I did a good job." But actually, you just tapped around. You're not really achieving something.
So that's something I'm consciously working on for next year. Just like >> But it's more better though. Like so I've obviously had a lot of conversations on the podcast now with coaches and physiologists and zone one is something that's come in in the last two years that for me is totally foreign because I would have been like say your zone 2 starts at 220 >> like you don't ride at 210 because I almost seen this is like a cliff I'm getting no benefit from here.
>> Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.
But speaking to like you know Vasilus Anastasopoulos you know even as over in science and sports yesterday coaching some good riders you know Wakefield's in Red Bull and they're like no zone one is like the most slept on zone because you're getting a lot of the mitochondrial density building new mitochondria really strong aerobic session without the residual fatigue so you're maintaining that sharpness then so you can actually hit your you know if you're going through like a polarized a lot of riders going through a polarized plan at the moment you you can hit that V2 max effort properly hard the next day because you don't have that residual fatigue. >> Yeah. >> How do you think about that compared to like bling idea of staying on the pedals?
>> Yeah, I think I'm more on the stand the pedals kind of thing just cuz I think it what's worked for me like I develop quite quickly to just pushing the pace and having a solid just tempo. I feel like I get quite a big fitness improvement from from that. And if I ride too easy, I just feel like I'm not making adaptations.
Yeah, >> I think it's again it's a bit like all these things very individual work what works for one person doesn't work for the other and I think at the end of the day I have a coach setting me training so if I'm constantly conflicting with his ideas or thinking I'd rather do this or maybe that's not right then he's not really coaching me and I am then half coaching myself he's half coaching me and neither of us are doing the job right >> yeah I think I heard the other day this great expression there's many ways up the mountain >> 100% >> and each path up the mountain has something different about it like you know there's there's a better view. There's some rotted areas is a bit off camber one way, the other way is not without its pitfalls either. The important thing is to choose a path up the mountain.
>> And it's like for me that's doing what the coach says like and trust like it starts with that >> when you're figuring out who's going to coach you. Do I trust this person to navigate me up the mountain? And if you do, do the sessions.
>> Yeah, that that's exactly where I'm at. It's like put full confidence in the coach. Give it six months.
See where you're at in May or June. If you're happy with where you're at, perfect. If it's not, maybe have a chat about changing something in the offseason next year.
But like so far, I think it's it's working. It's something that I'm I'm happy with and I think once you have the confidence, it's like you say, cycling's 50% mental, 50% physical. If you're happy and you're feel like you're doing the right thing, you're going to be doing pretty good, I think.
>> What's next season look like? No tour to France debut? >> Uh, I don't think so.
Maybe uh maybe a 27 tour of to France debut would be the dream. >> Nice little trip around UK and then over to France. That would that would be pretty cool.
I could have some people on the boat over from home or fly over from home to watch. That would be like that's where I have my kind of medium-term goal set at. But hopefully another grand tour next year.
Um they're kind of the pinnacle of cycling. They're what you get out of bed for in the morning. And yeah, apart from that, just getting the race days in.
Um helping at some races, trying to go for my own results at others, and trying to make a step up from these first two years. Do you have a like a a career vision that you dare to say out loud? >> Because at 22 it's like >> could you win the tour?
Like you know what I mean? You don't know at that age. Maybe you can like >> Yeah.
I don't want to set the ceiling but I think from what I've been seeing it's pretty hard to go from 6.3 or four or five watts of kilo for 20 minutes to 7.1 or 7.
2. It's a pretty big jump. >> It's a jump.
Big jump. And uh I think I'm more working like 1% 2% improvements. And I see myself having quite a long career.
I see myself being pretty useful teammate if I don't make it as a leader. And it's a role which I've I've been in for the last two years. But I would like to break out of a little bit this next coming season and kind of show a bit more that if I get in the break, I can go on and win the stage, not sit up and wait and be a satellite rider.
And I think yeah, we'll have to take it as it comes. Team orders always come first. They have given me the odd opportunity on occasion to to have a rattle and I've shown sometimes that I'm not far away.
So >> yeah. Yeah. No, you're you're very close to a big breaker win where a lot of people are are going to know your name.
>> Yeah. Hopefully. I mean it's that's always what you're wanting, but it's it's easier said than done.
And like as I said already, there's a lot of great riders in the game. And it's just about slowly improving so you find that race that suits you and where you can kind of Yeah. breakthrough.
I suppose >> I think your house is starting to get a bit busy, so we will uh we will wrap up. >> Yeah. Podcast.
Your first appearance on the podcast. First of many, hopefully. >> Yeah.
Yeah. Thanks for having me. It was good.
Good chat. >> Yeah, it's a pleasure. Darn.
You're a gent. Vicent.