Welcome back. Today I sit down in the studio with head coach for AG2R Decathlon, Steven Barrett. Steven tries to demystify what pro cyclists do.
Like what type of training are best riders in the world doing that you and me aren't. We dive really deep on this and Steven is super open and transparent. He shows us training training files, power numbers from Felix Gal in the recent tour to France.
Just how far off Pagacha and Yonas is he? The answer actually really surprised me. We also talked, as we couldn't avoid, about Sam Bennett, fellow Irish man.
Can he get back to the top of the sport? Steven has a unique take on this. We go really deep on this conversation.
I think you're going to really enjoy it. Welcome to the podcast, Steven Barrett. Steven, this crack.
All good. Good to be here. Good to be here in person.
Yeah, it's good to be here in person. It's a different vibe to when you're sitting down across from someone. We're all all of a sudden.
No, it's when we when you when you messaged me. I think you you were quite pushy that I was here in person. I was like actually that's a good idea because I'm I'm kind of sick of doing Zoom calls and phone calls and you can be a bit more personal in face to face.
So h it's interesting to me we had a similar parallel journey which I'm sure we'll get into and now you're stepping into rooms with some of the biggest riders in the world. When you're getting into these rooms for the first time like what's most important like is it rider buy in? Is it going in?
Is it putting your blend of coaching? Is it imposing on that or you know how did you think about those first interactions and putting your shape on the team? Yeah, it's actually a cool question because I think irrespective of of who you're working with or what industry you work in, first impressions, they do last.
And I think I've been reasonably lucky in my career that I've been involved in different sports and different teams where you can make mistakes and what opportunity then to to move up into into world tour with the team I'm currently in and you kind of you know before what you must do to to make an impact. And the first the most important thing really is is you need to make the people who you're talking to >> understand that you're there for them. You're there to make them better.
You're not there to get more followers or more likes or more clicks. It really is you're there to make them better footballers uh whatever drivers or or or cyclists and and that's really is something which which I try to be conscious about when I do step into the room with with bike riders. I was chatting to Ed Clancy during the week uh obviously one of the best team pursuit riders of all time.
I think was he three Olympic gold medals including the home games which I can only imagine how pressurized that was for a GB rider. But I was thinking back to a story that I think I heard in the last dance where they were Michael Jordan was talking about one of the early coaches he had and he went into a dressing room full of these super talented basketball players, some of the best ones in the world and he's like here's how you put on your sock. And they're looking at him going, "What?
" He's like, "Because if you don't put on your sock, Roy, you're gonna get blisters." Now, after you put on your sock, here's how you tie your laces. You pulled them up from the bottom.
And it was real force principles. And when I chatted to Ed Clansancy, he spoke about the early years in the famous Manchester house where there was Caendish, Grant Thomas, Matt Braier, Ed Clansancy, and two lads that didn't make it whose names escaped me. They never came true as pro cyclists.
But Rod Ellingsworth was little known then. But he said the first thing he tried to do is instill values. So he pulled the whole team together and he made them write down their values.
And their values were like always look like a pro cyclist. So you dress properly, always treat staff respectfully, always be on time. But interestingly, he put down a corresponding punishment for breach of those values.
So for not treating staff respectfully, you had to ride the top of the drone with no food or water for three hours. He was telling me Cal spent some amount of time at the top of that fell drum just circling. >> I can imagine it's but it's true because I think when you have I think back then that was almost like pre social media and pre you you didn't have so many outside influences and now in the in the world we're in now fortunately or unfortunately all these young writers are have so much external factors that they have to deal with.
But you're exactly right. You have to go back to first principles which is instillating values. you know what why why are you here?
What makes you want to be here? And are you here for the right reasons? I think some of the things you just mentioned there with Rod and what he did with some of those younger guys and even what you said with the last dance putting on sock properly sounds so simplistic but that's where we need to when you work with with top level athletes you often have to take a really a big step back take a leap backwards to say actually what what do we need to put in place and a good example really with with for me was my first time speaking with Roman bar or I think more recently was with Greg Navamat I I had maybe three or four years experience in in in the team And Greg came and Greg has won more bike races than I have had hot dinners.
I mean the guy was really was like a you know he's a freaking superstar. He came in with his gold helmet. He was still the reigning Olympic champion.
Remember the first training camp you're there like trying to tell them you know how to put on the Harvard model. Now my background is like I I lectured at one point in my life and first ye in in the first day of first year you're with your bunch of students you're telling them what a heart monitor is and here I am you know 10 years into my career in professional cycling and you're telling a guy who's Olympic champion you why you should put on a heart monitor and how to put it on and it it just I think sometimes people think that me working where I am we're at the cutting edge of sports science the cutting edge of coaching often a lot of my job really is bringing things back to basics and and instilling some good good habits into into the writers. >> And you mentioned early about telling the writers it's I'm not here for clicks.
I'm not here for social kudos. Build my own reputation. Why you doing that?
Is that trust you're trying to build with them early? I think it's I think it's trust. It's it's certainly trying to build some sort of rapport where if they trust you or they believe you, then they're going to listen to you and and if you get more buying, then you can have you're you're effective because irrespective of what you say or irrespective of how great your training program is or what you're going to say is, if the writer doesn't trust you or believe in you, it's it's not worth anything.
It's much more effective having a really bad training program, but the writer believes in it, you it's going to be much more effective. And I said, again, I've made so many mistakes in my coaching career where I've had the most scientifically validated, perfect, periodized training plan, but a writer thinks I'm an because of how I act or how I present it. I've got no impact.
So really, it's about building trust and building strong relationships with with the people you're trying to you're trying to make. >> Yeah, I often think about this. uh chat with Steven Syler and he was talking about long if you zoom out far enough on elite or amateur athletes what normally defines their long-term success is consistency.
Can you adhere to a plan regardless of how simple or complex that plan is? I think as amateur athletes, we get so lost, and I'm sure we'll jump into some of this later and the nerdy stuff around, you know, periodization, distribution of intensity, frequency, duration, but sometimes we get so lost in the minutia of those conversations or heat training protocols, is it at 38.5 or 38.
6 that we forget that basic cheat code of consistency determines our long-term outcomes here. >> That for sure. And if you can adhere to it and that's something we we often hear it's the most effective training program is the one you can stick to is is kind of what it is.
And that's something we try I try and create in in some of my social interactions with riders but also in my role now I can work with other coaches and try to trying to instill values in coaches and how they work. And a big one is trying to trying to maximize adherence because more adherence equals more effectiveness. And basically what writers want is effect is is having an effective outcome with her getting better.
And that's something which I've often been asked how you can increase adherence, how you can increase consistency. It's just a bunch of different factors. It's it's just doing your job well.
It's understanding it. It's really not over complicating something, but really ensuring you're not bullshitting anybody. Once you try and pretend you know more than you actually do, don't be afraid to say, "Fuck, I actually don't know.
" That's actually a good question. You know, I don't know. I'll try and find out the answer for you.
the very best guests I've had on the podcast, the most knowledgeable guests when I asked him a question, you know, you sit and you ask Samimpy something about nutrition, >> you just go, I don't know. >> Yeah. >> And you'll catch other guys.
I had this heat training protocol expert on and it was just abs we're on episode 1400 or something. I think I've not aired one episode with this heat training dude. >> Absolute nonsense.
Like I'm asking him questions. I'm like, I don't know about e training, but I know you're making up some amount of spoof here. >> And it's so obvious as well if you if you don't know the answer for it.
And you and you come across them so often. You know, even my day-to-day life as well, you come across it so often. You ask a question.
Um, and if someone doesn't know, you know, you just say it and you'll, you know, ask better questions and we can go and find out. But it's true that there's nothing worse than and unfortunately, I've fallen into that trap before. I have no doubt about it.
When I was in my earlier years coaching, somebody asked you, "What about this or what about that nutrition protocol?" And you go off in some tangent about some physiological capacity or some mitochondrial biogenesis and you're like, "What the is this guy talking about?" You know?
So it it's it's one that I do know it's a big red flag if you what I will do actually when I interview for coaches as well like we in my job also now we we recruit coaches and in the interview process I will ask questions where the idea is that they don't know the answer and see how they actually respond to it to to see how deep down the hole they go uh and do they know are they just do they have the perception enough to say actually no actually actually I don't know what the answer actually is >> because there's an interesting going on with AI at the moment where AI will take us in a direction. But if you take I'm coaching a a young lad at the moment and he's cramping at the end of races. So if he's uncoached, he goes, "I'm cramping at the end of races.
" AI puts in, "Oh, maybe you don't have enough electrolytes in." And then it just goes deeper down that rabbit hole of maybe you don't have electrolytes. Maybe you just roll too hard all day and your legs are just cooked.
But it totally excludes that as a possibility and it'll just go deeper and deeper down this rabbit hole talking about perfect magnesium, potassium, sodium balances to the point where he's obsessed with this magnesium. So you you almost need a mixture of EQ and IQ now to pause, be self-reflective, and make sure you're going the right direction because we have tools that can guide us once we know the correct direction. >> 100%.
And it's something I've been asked as well quite a bit is is now the influence of AI and the influence of of research and data and and so-called datadriven studies and and and data driven decisions. How I look at it is and this is not just to protect my job as a coach. I think AI is going to be very beneficial but you need to we need to let AI and data guide us and not dictate what we do.
I think once we start to be dictated certainly in our context in in coaching you can you can go down certain rabbit holes where they can become echo chambers and you're looking at the wrong problem you ask because you ask AI the wrong question and a really important thing for us is and something I try to instill in people is I don't I'm not so worried about the answers I want you to ask better questions because a better question will lead to a better outcome and like I said I'm not against AI I think it's will it take over my job in 10 years probably But I think right now I think AI can be a very useful tool. But anybody listening or people looking for answers, just let it guide you. Definitely don't let it dictate what you what >> you explain it like an assistant.
Like if you had a job, a startup, would you piss off playing golf or go ride nearby all day and let your assistant run the company? You probably wouldn't. It just doesn't make very good sense.
And that's the way I'm approaching AI. >> And it's perfect sense. And that's how it is.
It's it's it's an it's another um kind of pipeline of information that you can get on board for you for you to make better decisions yourself. And I understand in this day and age, everyone everyone wants that that secret session or that secret nutrition plan or that that secret thing to do with, you know, I've got X money. Where do I invest my money?
And look, it's quite funny, you know, I'm just back from Tour to France last week and we've had guys on the bus jokingly putting into the chat GBT, you know, stage 15 of the Tour of France, pocket chars in the yellow jersey by four minutes. What's the likely outcomes of of this of this stage? And they're kind of having a joke about it.
And then they they then will cross reference on the on the bus back to the hotel actually what happened and what did chat GPT say? So, so the guys are actually using it in a kind of um a fun way, but also deep down, yeah, they're definitely using as well to to to see what they think is going to happen on a certain day. I >> I think we can definitely go one layer deeper on Vell viewer when we start getting better AI on statistical likelihood of splits in echelons based off wind speed and direction.
Like if you apply certain power, I think the forecasting around that could get a lot stronger on AI. Then and then I think that's something I've I've heard as well. I know you've spoken about Ben Healey quite a bit as well and NEF and I do know a lot of their strategy in breakways is based on that is okay we have a breakaway with four riders five riders this is the weather conditions here's who's in the pelaton we got four minutes what is the likelihood of this going to the finish or do we just pull the pull the plug and not go same thing like you say with with with certain kind of race scenarios uh based on a on a on a typical power core type based on what stage it is uh based on you know what the likelihood outcomes are but all that only all gets good by how good the input actually is so is giving it better questions and asking better better things but I think that that definitely is a something that's going to kick off the next I know it already is being used in a lot of teams but certainly in the near future strategic decisions and and sporting uh tactics I think will be definitely more in >> but it needs to be run through a lens of cycling people I think you know you're coming from the French culture and lame ETA it's also important but you can't overemphas it can't disappear the cycling people and one of the examples from the recent tours uh some YouTubers consulting in Vizma and uh they were getting abused on Lance Armstrong's podcast because apparently the tactic one of the days was to ride so hard to stop Pagatcha eating and drinking.
>> How hard you have to ride to stop someone eating and drinking. Like what? How can you not eat or drink?
I've never seen this. Is it warp speed? Yeah.
>> And how can you eat and drink if Pagata can't eat and drink? >> Yeah. It's it's like but I think sometimes with I'm not hugely involved in social media just because sometimes problems are created or these like stories are created when there's no story a story at all.
And and I think with with the likes of like you said and go back to your first point about you need to have a human element. I I've been involved on a French team for for seven years and you mentioned Leamethia and the panache and that's often a little bit how how our team has done is that just on this perfect day the plants align and we're in a good breakaway and we just happen to to win a stage in tour of France that's awesome but that's also a bit of a dream that you you need much more input you need much more strategic analysis of of what's happening and as I know you're referencing to again some of the strategic things that that Jumbo did in this tour of to France to try to destabilize Pogachar by having multiple attacks like they did in Kola Granon two years ago, three years ago where they did like attack attack attack and he he cracked on on coal lows. But yeah, sometimes you're just like, well, yeah, they're asking the wrong questions really is is what is trying to attack a guy to make sure he can't eat or drink.
But >> speaking of that romance, Parantra von two. >> Yeah. Yeah.
>> Well, that was a romantic win. It >> certainly was. >> He was your team.
>> He was in our team last year. He actually won a stage in the Jirro with us last year. He also kg or something.
>> He's 54. He was 52 last year. He's put on a few pounds of muscle, 54 kilos.
But the guy the guy is he's um he's he came through our development team in uh in AG tour and he was with us then last year and I think he he really stepped out of the shadows of his brother Aurelion at the start of last year. were in UEE tour and he did that famous lead out for Ben Oconor when Ben won on Jabel Havit and did two attacked out of the Pelaton with maybe a K to go and and then uh Ben won the stage and then from there you know Valentine went on and I was at a training camp with him last year in in Etna number before the JRO he won a stage in the Jirro and then you know I was so happy to see him step out of the French team because with those young French guys they can just stay in that French environment for a long period of time and he had the ball to say you know what I'm going to go to to Quickstep I'm going to the Remco's domestique and he went there and then to see what he did on vaugh two was I mean I was there to I was on the side road 5k to go giving the last beat on for our team and it was just it was mega I mean really was super >> for a 54 kg lad go to a Belgian team it's like where you getting thrown into a lot of 1.1s in Flanders like it's >> yeah yeah it's it's a bit of a a little guy thrown into the wolf pack for one of a better word but again for him he he doesn't get I think with Valentine he's 54 kilos but guy as they say in French.
He he he knows how to like rub shoulders in in the front of a pelaton. >> He's super holding position. >> Incredible.
Incredible in terms of crosswinds. Like he's not threshold every crosswind. >> Yeah, he is.
But he's he but he's also is the most he's just a gifted bike rider. He knows how to move. He knows where to be and he just doesn't he doesn't waste unnecessary energy.
>> And that's where our team really maybe didn't see him progressing was okay. He's good on a steep climb, but you know, flats, time trials, he's not going to progress. But then you saw him, you know, in in the tour and it was like, and speaking of data, that's something we don't do a very good job of capturing still efficiency around the bunch.
Like, how was Valverde top five wheels into key areas in the classics for 15 years? You can't capture that in a watts per kilogram. Again, super interesting point because that's actually a terminology we've used in our December camp this year is basically bunch efficiency.
So we we all know about FTP, critical power, W prime, threshold, fractional utilization, blah blah blah, V2 max, but a critical one is is and well not gross efficiency, but it's about bunch efficiency. that when you put a guy into a bunch uh and they're all more or less this big one homogeneous unit who's expending more or less energy doing the same amount of work and that's something that we have reflected a lot on. We've got certain guys in our team who are physiological animals but have got terrible bunch efficiency.
So we've gone back and and analyzed um you know data from our guys who are in the bunch. Okay, now we know that we've got one or two guys who are poor. How do we fix that?
That's a good question. I mean, we we're different things we try to do, but it really is it's it's it's a tech it's a technical tactical not tactical, it's more of a technical how comfortable are in position. It's trying to put them trying to expose them to uncomfortable scenarios, but not too often in the season.
So then once we get to the tour of France or the biggest race that they're they're better. We're not going to make them uh perfect, but if we can make them better, it's already a step. >> There's also a it's beyond physiology, isn't it?
cuz anyone that's ridden a bike knows it's like, you know, everyone knows the key points. You've need to be top 10 into this section. It's there's a surv there's a Darwinianness to this.
There's a survival of the fittest to it. It's a who's willing to break latest. Who's willing to slightly intimidate someone?
Who's you know doesn't have a wife and kids to go home to. It's like all of it feeds into this aura of like I ride in the top 10. And even the hierarchy inside the teams, you know, I'll chat to we talk about Ryan Mullen off air.
I'll chat to Ryan and just the way Ryan looks at that hierarchy like if you're not UAE jumbo Vizma get out of the way. What are you doing in my way? 100%.
And and that's that is like you said the the kind of Yeah. the the food the food chain or the food pyramid within within the pelaton as a spectator. You can look at it but it's and you look at this just beautiful like flock of swallows just going up like the the middle of France but like it's just it's eat or be eaten.
Like it's it really is. It really isn't. And and it's >> even for me when I'm at races, you're I'm at the side of the road or I'm in the DS car, you don't feel it.
And you're there trying to tell guys what to do, but you just you just you don't you can't experience, you can't explain what it's like to be in the pelaton tour of France is one thing, but a Belgian classic, even like a 1.1 race in in Lima in the middle of France, they're they really are eat or be eaten. So you're it's you have the physiological capacity, but then you also have to be you excuse my French.
You have to be a bit of a of a of a of a of a nasty guy to to to make sure you can you can you know put your mark on the race otherwise you just get you you won't last very very long. >> Well look you're cork Roy gain made a career out of being the nasty lad and it's like there is a bit of nastiness about the best athletes. There's a nastiness about Ramco.
There there is like I've coached Ben O Connor who I discussed as well and like people have a perception of Ben of being a bit of a crazy guy but what he is he's he he's nasty on the bike when he has to be because if he's sitting fifth wheel >> okay I'm not going to go near him and I'll just move back behind him and there's a level of that that you need and that's not put on that's just I'm a bike rider I'm here to do this result uh so don't try to come in and take my spot because you know you're you're going to you're going to feel my you're going to feel my my my rot And I think with some Ryers, what they've been good at doing is attaching themselves to so-called bodyguards. And Sam Bann has a good one with Ryan you mentioned. Like Sam always says, "Ryan's my asshole.
" Like Ryan can like be that like uh the the dust bin. I just kind of, you know, go through and win a stage. Ryan's the guy gets disqualified or gets declassified.
But, you know, I'm happy over here. And that's what Ryan's happy to do. Again, now with yellow cards and red cards and whatever else you have now, you can't do as as much.
But yeah, you you definitely need to have a if you're if you're not that type of person, you need to have a strong team around you who can at least protect you. And I think in our team now, we've got Felis G, for example, who is not the nastiest of guys. He's a bit too too kind.
We've Oliver N, Stephan Biser, who can at least create a bubble around him to make sure he's he's he's in a better position. When I look at that last stage, which I'd love to get your thoughts on now in the tour, not the traditional sprint stage over the climb, but the one real beneficiary when I watched that of the time getting taken early was Felix Gall. >> Yeah.
>> I was like, he is blessed. >> It was funny with that like he the guy was on the bus that he was like, "Guys, no stress, all is good, no problem." I was like, "Fucking this guy is uh he's he was because he kind of we we got word that it was going to be Yeah.
more or less was time was going to be taken early on." And thing about it is it's it's a it's a super stressful day. Like it is I mean it's it's it's like this maybe procession and you know the first 100k is that there's champagne being passed from car to car and there's people having the photographs and that is the case but once you pass uh the palai it's it's it's like it's a war.
It really is a war and those cobbles if anyone's been on those cobbles in the shams I mean proper cobbles. >> Well Tade had his best 20 minute power in 2020 on the shel. Yeah, I mean those are they're like it's a proper bike race it is.
So like for us it's the same thing with with any race with with with with the white roads and stratabania with the cobbles even with with with with the with the last agent in in in the tour. I mean it was incredible incredible spectacle like incredible and I I was at the tour the last seven years and even last year when the tour ended in Nice because of the Olympics didn't have the same vibe. I mean, Paris just brings a just brings it such a proper vibe.
But do Yeah. Do I love it? I mean, it's cool to watch it, but yeah, if there's risks of splits and and people losing time and losing spots in GC.
Yeah. Yeah. It's >> also like it's kind of you're in the bubble a lot more than I'm in the bubble here.
So, and the listeners are definitely way outside the bubble. So, help us understand this. Like ASO seem to be the only organization who can make up these rules.
It's like it's like blowing the all final up 15 minutes to go. It's like fans will be like what's going on? How can you take time 50 kmters from the finish line as you never be watching the three days of the pan or dunk or whatever it's called these days and it's like oh we're blowing it up 50k to go.
It's like wow we're racing to the finish line. >> Yeah it's it's a super good point and it's one of the it's one of the the nuances of of cycling and I'm not that I agree with it at all but you're right. You know, last week in Paris basically it was blown up with 50k to go and okay which took nine seconds on t because he was out front when they blew it up.
>> Exact. Yeah. So it's it's it's it's twofold.
One is that I think a off the back of the Olympics last year with the mart which is you know a mega spectacle and I we we were I was doing a von course which is the car in front of the race where we do recon and I was I kind of arrived 10k before the race arrives and you're like this is mega like I mean it was just insane and that was that was like a half hour before the race even arrived like this is going to be super super cool but what's weird is that even the teams like we had no information the morning of the race the day four going to Paris the morning the race we've got everyone's like what's happening what's going what's going to happen but what the situation now riders have a lot of power in that the writers will send you know a joint statement to the so and say well you know we're not going to do this because it's too dangerous it's too risky can you imagine Taj crashing on on the descent of MAR on wet cobbles now everyone was praying for rain on that day it it didn't rain it rained I think after the first maybe the first passage but I think the fear from the so they're They want to make a spectacle, but they also don't want to have a scenario where Taj is sitting on the side of the road with a broken collarbone on on stage 21 of the of the tour to France. >> Yeah. But devil's advocate on that was Roglitch sixth on GC going into that.
>> Primos can handle his bike very very well. Felix Gal sitting in fifth going into it wouldn't be notoriously the best bike handler in the bunch. You've got to be able to race in the wet on the dry on cobbles uphill downhill three weeks.
You've run the risk of tad crashing. But look, you run that anyway cuz he went full kamicazi mode for the stage when like why deprive Primos who's carved those skills out through hard work of his opportunity of his strategic edge. I I I mean I I even even taking away from my my personal biases with our team and is it definitely benefited us but I agree with you because it's just people making up rules just for the sake of making up making up rules and like being and that's what what makes Taj such an incredible bike rider.
It's not just because he can do X was perpo for however long is the guy's incredible on cobbles. He's incredible on crosswinds. He's incredible on on gravel roads.
He's incredible on these descents. He's incredible on the TT. That's what makes him such an incredible bike rider.
And Dennis was the question that you should ask is do cobbles do gravel road have a place in Grand Tours? And I'm maybe to the point of I don't think they they they do. >> It's hard.
>> It is. And again from my point of view, I mean I'm obviously in it. I'm like I I I was glad that you know we started in Leil which is the home of of the Catalon and Van Royel which is sponsor of our team and we didn't have a cobble section.
And I was like, I mean, thank Lord in the Cobble section in the first in the first three days, but I know on TV would have been awesome. But I think I I think it's fair to say cobbles are in Peru Bay in Belgian Classics. Gravel should be in Sabbanki.
I'm not one for having these like crazy one-off spectacle days in in in racing because as well the writers, they're humans. Like yes, it's entertainment, but also for them. I've been on buses before when it's wet and there's cobbles and there's gravel roads and you know the guys are stressed.
The guys have, you know, families and kids and they've got careers and they've got race programs that they need to fulfill for the rest of the year. They got contracts they need to fulfill. So, putting those guys in a in an environment which is really risk increases exponentially.
I I also have a little bit of uh compassion. >> Yeah, I can see both sides of this. Having obviously been a bike racer, it's It's stressful on that side of it.
There's nothing worse than waking up on a wet day and you're stuck in Belgium on some cobbled race and you're like, "Oh, like the chances of me going into this corner and coming out are basically 50/50." Especially on rim brakes like we were racing on. >> We were racing on 140 PSI rim brakes like >> as hard as you can pump it up.
Just keep it going on on 19 mil uh 19 mil tires. >> We're like a grenade going off. >> You were hoping that between pumping your tire, going back to your car to get to jail, let your your tired explode and you're hoping no one else could actually break on a descent.
But there's obviously places in a grand tour that are dangerous. Descents are dangerous. So we can start extending that argument then the gravel argument to descents are dangerous.
And it's like they they should be part of the race. They've always been a part of the race. It's I guess the balance between it's a transition stage.
Am I going to tune in as a spectator versus it's a strata stage? I'm marking that on my calendar. I'm not going to miss it.
And what does that mean then? I think it means you're selling more tires. You're selling more bikes, you're selling more jerseys, more ad revenue.
Where's the balance between rider safety? And I think that's just got to be maybe a stronger like the the CPA haven't Adam Hansson seems to be doing a bit better than old incarnations, but still doesn't seem massively strong. The power the power is in in cycling.
It's kind of weird. If you think about football, you have the governing body FIFA has all the power and then under that you have tournaments. Under that you have federations.
It's not the same in cycling. You have one race organizer, ASO, which has basically all of the power. Riders have almost nothing.
>> No, riders have nothing. And also there's so few spots as well in the world tour. And there's so many riders now that everyone knows if you get if you have one breakthrough day or one breakthrough race, you can make your career.
So writers, it's fine for the more experienced writers to be more um cautious and have a stronger voice that we shouldn't do this and you know we shouldn't have have these kind of races, but you got younger guys who are trying to make the breakthrough into world tour and they're like I want to race. Let me race these races. So I completely see from both sides.
I think just from from my point of view I said I've I'm speaking more about like the biggest races. I've been in those days where we're preparing the morning of a race and you just you you see the riders just this huge amount of stress and it it it just adds a huge amount of unknown and yeah to what the outcome of the race can can be. And I've you knowve I've brought riders to hospitals where they've broken collarbones they've crashed they they've broken you know arms they've broken femurss and you you're that guy bringing a guy to a hospital you're sitting in in a room for for six seven eight hours.
I did it in training camp before the tour of France with with a with a rider um who crashed on on a descent, he hit some gravel on the descent, he crashed. So there's a yeah, you see those things, you see what guys put in and then they're out for you know two months or three months. >> Why we have no innovation around safety?
Like if we're serious about safety as an actual real conversation instead of trying to I don't think this is an eitheror. It's not like we can we prioritize rider safety or we take away from viewer satisfaction. we can prioritize rider safety and maximize viewer satisfaction with like the bunch of speeds have got faster and faster whether it's you know I'm sure we'll get on to fuel and whether it's carbohydrates whether it's arrow arrow undoubtly plays a bit Dan Bingham spoke in science and sport about some of the arrow ideas they have coming in narrower bars but these seem to be quite toothless like if you want to slow riders down you put them on round spokes you put them on there's we can measure this in data the effect it's going to have.
>> Why are we not looking seriously at slowing riders down and building something into the jerseys that's like more like you can skate to stop us getting road rush at least. >> Yeah. I mean there's a bunch of things there.
I think one I know the safer group as well which is head up by a lot of the the different teams are trying to make the the the races safer and I think every year you go to races and I think this year in the tour correct me if I'm wrong there was not a huge amount of big big crashes. seemed less than that considering how sketchy the first few days. I mean the first few days were really sketchy.
I think for us we didn't really we had one crash with Stephan Biser who crashed and he had some concussion you had to you had to go home but I think the overall amount of really significant crashes was was less. I think what safe are doing which is a company or as a group they try to you know bring in more traffic or more like um signs on the road. So we, you know, I'm trying to make the parkour a little bit safer with different things.
But like you said, you're exactly right. And that bringing in gear restrictions or bringing in uh narrower bars, is it going to make guys safer? Is going to reduce speed?
No, it's not going to reduce speed because bike companies, and I'm involved with quite a few of them, are looking to make faster wheels and faster tires and faster skin suits and faster bikes. That's what sells and that's what what's happening. How do you make how do you make your races safer?
Yeah, I think it's just that I think it's it's often it's the the root is what what causes uh the crashes. I mean even this year we have a lot of you know desense true truly technical villages technical towns road furniture but as you know the road furniture is something you can't you can't actually get rid Well, they used to get rid of it though. Do you remember that?
>> They did. They used to get rid of like speed bumps. Now they don't.
Like I remember there was often races and it's only a few years ago like there was speed bumps being removed. I know where I where I live in in Nice on KZ in the tour last year on the descent with the TT and there's a bunch of speed bumps and just got rid of the speed bumps. Um so there's different things you can do.
I think for the tour it's okay because they have the resources but if you're racing yes I say tour of Poland or tour of limmaan or whatever it is don't have the same they don't have the same >> Did you read Israel writer Rusty Woods did you read his blog at all during the tour? >> I didn't see his blog. No Michael but I >> it's good.
Uh yeah he's he's a good lad obviously been on the podcast. Nice lad race in Canada but he some interesting stuff around it. Some of the ones he said like we need some sort of safety fabric built in.
There needs to be innovations around incentives for innovations around safety, not just arow and heat. >> There needs to be he thinks garments, bike computers, hammerheads, whatever are causing are a huge problem. He's like, you don't let drivers look at their phone when they're driving, but we're letting lads descend at 90k an hour.
>> The same thing with like race radios. He said that >> and that's one thing that that I know our our CEO who's our CEO with our team has come from Dhaka Rally and he's biggest one is like seeing guys where guys are like talking on the race radio descending at at 80 90k an hour. So they're trying to he's kind of asked how we can maybe inbuild that onto into the cockpit that guys can talk to to race radio without having to take their hands off the bars.
Yeah. >> Which is a big thing. But I agree 100%.
I think one thing everyone's so focused on the weight the weight of bike the weight limit. I think that's something that that the USAI probably should should yeah maybe look into a bit more is actually increasing the the the weight limit because now it's 6.8 kilos and I I know every theme team is like working to make that as light as possible and you're not going to add on another kilo or kilo and a half of of protective garments on you if you if it's going to cost you again you know adding on 2 kilos is going to cost you x 10 seconds per kilometer on on a mountain on on a mountain time trial for example but I agree you look at you look at other sports like like mountain bike where you've got you know protective bib shorts or protective jerseys because now you see guys crashing they're crashing at 50 60k an hour and I mean just their half their half their skin is is missing which is just yeah it's not not pleasant >> and it's not pleasant at the time but it's like you look 10 15 years later every time the sun comes out I still have this weird uneven tan that's like what happened there you look like you fell into a fire like basically I did >> it's true you know and I we should start like I do know it's definitely been discussed u but again it's just the it's the it's the it's the resources that's required to really get that to market get that the test get that.
>> Well, for me it's around incentives. Like if you think about race organizers to take ramps out or not take ramps out, there's obviously an economic cost to taking ramps out, but there's no incentive for them to take the ramps out. But if you were to start grading races, which would be easily done, I'm I'm sure we already have the resources to do it.
Okay, here's the 10 most dangerous races of the year. Here's your penalty for being one of the most dangerous races of the year. Here's your incentive for being in the top five safest races of the year.
you get, you know, the grand apart's coming here in two years time because Poland is historically a very safe race. You're getting the grand apart and it's like we don't have this data so we can't make good decisions. I'm sure if you chatted to the riders, you sat them down and said, "What's the sketchiest finish of the season?
" There'd be a massive consensus around what the sketch like that the classic the Grunwagon crash rename. >> Yeah. The pan bruan everyone everyone knew that the downhill sprint you've got guys who've got 58 two chain rings downhill sprint and already in sprint scenarios they're like super chaotic and then you add on 10k an hour faster than normal again just decision- making time becomes becomes less and you're going and and like like I said as well the reward for the riders to get a a result or get a podium and they're huge and this is this is the thing is that you're you're about incentivizing races, but the incentive for bike riders is incredible.
Like if you win a stage in tour of France or if you win a sprint finish, it changes your life. Like guys can go from earning like minimum wage to earning more money than they ever dreamt of over the course of one or two days without without you know without question. Yeah, there's many examples of of it you know with with rider contracts in in um in cycling.
So that that's as well as that the reward for riders is just is huge. So they're they're like they when they see risk they they tend not to be too risk averse to be honest with you. >> What did Ajiratalia Stage Slayer Mads Person and half the professional pelaton have in common?
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So, slightly changing gear. Uh, Stephen, you're obviously working with some of the best riders in the world. You know, you talk about Ben O Connor last year, Bobby Young's tour to France stage winner, Sam, you know, one of the best sprinters of a generation.
When I speak to the best coaches, I've had the chance to speak some great coaches on the podcasts. You know, Dan Lang, Olaf Bu, John Wakefield, Christian Shrout. A lot of the topic, regardless of how you frame it, it really is how do we organize the chairs around the table of the Titanic?
It's like there's only so many variables we're playing at here. And it seems to me the three main levers you can pull and all the coaches will pull them in a slightly different direction is frequency, duration, and intensity. When you're preparing a rider for building them towards a grand tour and you're starting the offseason plan, how do you think about this distribution of frequency, duration, and intensity?
>> Yeah. and and and that's the way to look at it. It kind of you bring it back to those first principles which is frequency, intensity, time and type.
I suppose I learned in in school many many years ago. But when you do when you do kind of sit down in the offseason, be it October, November to plan out plan out a season, you you always have to work back from what the biggest goal is. And then when you're working with riders who are not development riders, you're looking at being competitive for the biggest races.
You look at what are the demands of the event. So now with data it's quite good that we can actually look at what are the demands of being top five to France winning the tour to France being competitive in the classics and then we work back from from that. So you look at it now to be competitive in the classics you got to ride a 4.
5 watts a kilo for five and a half hours. >> Yeah it's nuts. >> I mean it's insane.
So when you actually break that down okay how >> when you say competitive that's like top 10. >> I mean being competitive is actually yeah being in the race. Yeah.
has actually been being a factor in in the race. And then you know you can you can race to win, race to be competitive, race to help a leader and just race to exist. And we have a lot of our young guys will just race to exist.
Some of our neopros or some of our our devo guys will go in and race to exist just to get experience. But like you said, we have demands and we have writers uh who are capable of being competitive in these races. So we'll always work back and look what demands are of of these races and then based on that then we have to build a program how we can expose the rider to be able to meet those demands.
So we look at the the determinance of >> how are you quantifying the demands? Is it just a watts per kilo demand? Is it a kilogjle demand?
Is it a time above 500 watts demand? >> It's all those things. So first and foremost really you're looking at what is like the average the the the average kind of WS per kilo for a race just to give you a general idea.
We don't look at how that's distributed yet. We just see what the general average is for for the the intensity of a race. So it might be four 4.
5 watts kilo on average. Then you're looking at so then which again is a terminology we we've seen a lot is fatigue resistance durability is again at what point in those races how many kilogjles are expended if it's after 3 hours 4 hours 5 hours and then the the um the effort required post 4,000 kg. So those are really the two two big ones because we're seeing now races are going faster.
there's more kilogjles being burned, but riders still have incredible resources to to tap into into their peak power, their their their best peak numbers after 4,000 4 and a half thousand kjles, which is >> and so how does that manifest itself then like in a training specificity as you get closer to the event. Now I'm I'm guessing my training sessions are going to suck because I need to put down 4,000 kilogjles before I do my key intervals for the day. Exactly.
So that's how we build it. So in in the offseason world what the kind of biggest aim really is to build is to build volume. That's one of the most important things that we try to do is build volume because volume one of the the key outcomes of of just more volume is is more is better fatigue fatigue resistance or more durability.
But certainly as we're getting closer to our key events, we're looking to expose the rider to um stimulus after 4,000 kg to see okay how can we extend out 500 watts 550 watts 600 watts after 4 4,000 kg. So we'll be doing we'll be we'll be gradually increasing the duration of efforts uh of intervals following uh expenditure of energy. So a good example is you know in in December camp we'll have we'll have high we'll have high energy days for example which will be you know we'll look to a burn a thousand kilogjles per hour is a is a good like indicator of of how a race may be and then in end of January camp we look to do that and also layer on some intervals at the end end of that into that session we'll do like maybe again five times four minutes or we look at you know 12 times one minute on one minute off just to expose them to that high power under under fatigue.
So rewinding back to that base period, you're talking about the goal is to accumulate volume. How are we defining volume? Anything to the left of LT1?
Yeah. So initially it's left of LT1. So what most people will term and I know it's kind of different terms for for for zone 2, upper zone 2, lower zone 2, but for us December camp really is about building again anything left of of LT1.
So that kind of lower zone 2 range. And like we'll have riders now billing up towards, you know, they'll be aiming in around 22 up as far as 28 to 30 hours per week >> of easy volume. >> Yeah.
Of easy volume. It's huge. But and and it's it's a lot more than what was done 5 years ago.
And it's we trend that we're moving in towards is that there's people doing more more volume. When you do more more volume, you have to layer on as well the other other level of recovery and nutrition also is is a huge huge factor. So said in for us this summer camp really is is a really is your stereotypical like high volume >> and is it all zone two because I was curious when I was talking to Vasilus Anastas the Stana coach where he talked about quite a lot of zone one for his riders now and the idea being that they can go longer with zone one with less residual fatigue the next day.
So if he zooms out and he looks at a week a week that he includes more zone one volume they're carrying less fatigue but also getting through more of that base and I think that's where it comes when we we will we will periodize when we do more polarized training which is more zone one and you've got less fatigue so you can do better higher quality higher intensity and then we've got more your your standardized your zone three or your your tempo work which is more race specific. So that's important that we don't just follow one training prescription that we will we will wave between polarized training and and more of your your block purization where we do more more uh kind of mid-range zone three zone >> total sense cuz you know we the same coach we talked about offer Rick Stern back in the day and so much of that was I remember having this I can't remember my exact numbers were I think it was maybe 200 watts was the start of my zone two 200 220 around that summer started my zone two >> but it was like it felt like this edge like If I went 205 watts, all of a sudden I should have stayed at home. And I remember coming in from like, you know, I'd meet a friend for a social ride and I'd come home like 190 average.
>> Big tick ahead of me thinking that was a waste of six hours. What was I doing? >> Like that's changed so much in 10 years.
It's it's changed hugely in that now like it's I look at guys how they train now in December and like when I was back riding like I said you you're out and you're pushing 290 280 300 300 and you're just trying to you're looking to get the bonk and then like now like that doesn't happen at all anymore like I think with us with it depends also the type of rider that it is like we've got a bunch of sprinters now and classes guys we'll do a lot of polarized work in December camp which allows us to do more of your race specific specific four 4.5 five watts a kilo. Extended efforts in January close to the race because that's in essence what those races are made up of is just who can who can sit at 320 watts for for five hours and still be good uh at the end of a race.
Talk to me about recovery rides. Steven Syler when I chat to him had this idea of recovery rides aren't a thing. He's like it's an oxymoron.
You're either recover them or you're looking for a training adaptation stimulus. zone one rides then for me it's like where's that falling in? I'm looking to build because zone one is typically what I would have classed as recovery back in the day.
So I might have raced Saturday, Sunday, had an hour recovery coffee ride on a Monday. Am I canning that our recovery ride now or am I extending it now and saying it's a zone one ride? Yeah, I think with the recovery rides, it's such like you said, it's a real almost like a paradox in a we will always put them in to training programs.
We'll do three-day block, recovery ride, three-day block, recovery ride, two-day block, whatever it may be. And what actually is a recovery ride? And like a recovery ride is is the days your your days to recover so you can be good for the next block of training.
What we often found, what I found in the previous years that guys were just going out and doing an hour, an hour and a half of maybe like 220, 240, 250 watts and actually weren't recovering at all. it was just they were you almost push on too much. >> So what I tend to do now we will often I'll often try and prescribe with the guys I coach >> is we'll do more uh like indoor stuff.
We do some on rollers where we're doing more neuro muscular work. So we do higher cadence where the body is just moving but the overall energy expenditure is really quite quite low. So it's I think the question really is is what you're looking to achieve.
Uh like I will often give a guy a recovery ride for one hour, one hour and a half, but I don't really care what they do. It's just more for them to to mentally switch off. >> Yeah.
>> Um but >> why not take the day off? >> That's when which I will often tell guys do take a day off. But I often find what the feedback I get.
If a guy takes a day off, they feel >> stale next >> locked or stale the next day because their body hasn't hasn't hasn't moved. It's really it's a it's one of those unanswerable questions. What do you do in a rest day in a grand tour?
And we all every year we the same thing. Some guys will do two hours, some guys will do two hours and a half, some guys will do sprints, some guys will do nothing, some guys will go for a coffee ride. And it's I found it all everybody responds completely differently.
Like for us in the tour of France, we had seven guys, eight guys and we had two doing 45, one doing nothing, two doing two and a half hours. And I'm like, okay, whatever you think you need, let's discuss it and then just let's make it make it work for make it work for you. >> Is there any physiology behind recovery ride?
Is there a clears metabolic waste products I think was one of the catchphrases I remember from back in the day. >> Yeah. And also as well as that you're you're trying to make sure as it's at a high enough intensity that you're basically producing some lactate that you can clear your your lactate metabolites because if it's too easy you're actually causing no real physiological response.
And if you're going too hard then you're you're creating fatigue. So some people try to overprescribe and I remember when I was doing it we we had I had a coach and he was like you need to do your recovery at 220 watts because that's the optimal lactate production range for it to have that that cycle of of production clearance production clearance. >> But for me it's like movement.
>> It's also mentally as well just a switch off that you don't have to think about what your power meter says, what your Garmin says. And that's how I how you do it. And it's kind of it's worked pretty pretty good.
And you know going out for a coffee ride with your mates. I've seen this with our guys like they go out and just they have so much joy just going to a nice coffee shop sitting down for a half hour. I mean that for me is just like I like this is not even I'm not even joking.
I spent more time on the rest days finding the best coffee shop nearby that I would make a parkour to it guys would do and then come back and if the guys had a nice coffee shop coffee I was like awesome my job is done and that that really allowed us to have a yeah that our recovery days were just were just good. So, can we extend that idea of a minimum intensity for metabolic clearance to in between intervals? If I'm doing, you know, a classic 2 by 20 threshold intervals, what's the optimum intensity and gap in between those 2 by 20 for effective clearance?
>> That that's that's a cool question because then you got two you got two questions. One, are you looking to optimize train lactic clearance or lactate tolerance? So what I will try and do if I'm looking to maximize those two 20-minute efforts, I think minimum eight minutes is what you need.
8 to 10 minutes is what you need between between the efforts and somewhere around about your yeah your zone one where you're producing a little bit of lactate that there still is is turnover in that whole system to make sure your body is clearing what it's uh what it's produced already because you really when you do a 20-minute effort, your lact is going to go up. You want to make sure that that is back to as close to baseline as you as close to baseline as you can before you start the next effort unless you're looking to improve your lactate tolerance where you want to start your second effort with a slightly higher lactate in the bloodstream. So then you're you're working more of a lactate um tolerance and also clearing lactate at a higher at a higher power output.
So we we will that that'll be a key session that we will do sporadically during the year where we're looking to um I think because now when you look at races a lot of climbs now will start off with the first two minutes is full gas then we'll knock back down to close to threshold which is maybe inverse to how it was maybe 10 years ago which it was you would arrive and it would be build build guys get dropped dropped dropped you'd be left with the last four or five guys. Now climbs are like 5 minutes full gas. You got a massive peak, a massive load of lactate, and then you got to go back to your your threshold and and and actually get rid of lact at 400 watts or >> I love that answer though cuz I'm often asked like you know a question I get in all the time on Instagram or whatever.
like you get to chat with all these world tour riders, coaches inside the world tour. Like what's the golden thread that connects them all and unknowingly you stepped into that golden thread there where you thought about well what's the purpose of this session? Like why are we going out the door?
We're not going out the door to turn a a box green on our training piece. We're going out the door looking for an adaptation and it's like what's the adaptation we're looking for today? Is it building our threshold or is it lactate tolerance?
It's the same session but there's two different objectives in the session. And I think as amateurs, we don't do that enough. We just go, it's a 2 by 20.
We don't question one layer deeper like you do. >> And that's why I think for me, my job is actually quite easy because I can look at the demands of a race. Whereas when you're an amateur, maybe it's more difficult.
You have to you have to start look at where are your maybe deficiencies, you know, is your sprint not so good? If there's a big attack and you're in a breakway, do you get dropped? Can you recover?
So, it's about asking again back to what our first point was asking asking better questions. And that's why I really I suppose in my early coaching days was about how I can improve threshold, improve sprint power, improve improve V2 max. Whereas now my question is how can I make sure Felix can follow Pogatar for as long as he can or how can I make sure Phelix doesn't get dropped at the bottom of Lana or can he can go on on cold or he can he can attack on whatever mountain it is.
those are the questions that I will ask. But I'm also fully aware that my job actually is easier because those are easier questions to ask. Whereas if I'm an amateur, like I'm not sure.
Could I coach amateur now? Because I have no idea like what an amateur race consists of. I need to probably go back and and ride my bike a bit because I I don't know what it is anymore.
I'm so used to kind of coaching now in a very controlled environment where we have so much data and I can just go in and look at my power files and like okay to to go and be competitive in Parub Bay you need this to go and be competitive in in a stage in a in a grand tour you need this and yeah that's why I'm I'm always really conscious that coaching world tour when you have experience is easier than coaching economically >> but so how much do are you building a plan for you say take the classics or you even this extends the Felix Gal going into the tour to France. How much are you building a plan to maximize Felix Gal's potential around the terrain versus playing to the strengths and weaknesses of other people? Like I remember chatting with Fred Wright, I'm not sure if it was on air or off air, but was chatting with Fred and if it was off air, he won't mind me saying he was in the break in Tour of Flanders, the early break, and he got caught by Vanderpole and Pagatcha.
He said they came across to him. He hung on. So there was the three of them at one point and he said, "Do you remember when you're like a cat one and you'd catch like the cat twos or cat trees and you'd have a lad on the back but he's getting such a hiding that you wouldn't even ask him to come through cuz you're like I know he's not going to be there in the finish so I'm not even going to bother bullying him.
" He said it was that he's like I would have liked to even get a bit of abuse but he's like they just ignored me and just kept riding knowing they're just going to ride away from me soon. He's like I felt this small like I felt irrelevant. >> So how do you play to that in terms of catering the if we go back to first principles training start to mirror the demands of the event as you get closer to your specificity?
Are you looking to mirror the demands of these X-Men and going can we be the last to hold on to these or are you just playing your own game? Yeah, it's it's kind of like it's probably like the the golden goose or the question do I or do we try to prepare our riders to be able to do what pocket chart does or what vinegar does and you can't do that. However, you have to be conscious you're racing against those guys.
Therefore, you need to know what they're capable of capable of doing. So, it's a question that I it's something that I I will say to our development coaches a lot is that I don't really care if you increase your threshold by five watts next year and then 10 watts the year after another five watts. I care can you be competitive in the race next year?
Can you be competitive in the race we're doing? And if if you're if you're 10 watts better on your threshold, I don't really give a But if if that 10 watts is not translating us to be competitive. So to answer your question, a lot of what I do now, certainly with likes of Felix or or with with those riders like li like Ben last year was very much around about here's what you need to do to win this race or to be competitive.
You need to be able to put out 7.4 watts a kilo for 5 minutes. They need to be to go and do 6.
5 watts a kilo for 20 minutes. That's what we need to do if you're in position. >> If you're in position.
So let's focus on doing that in training. And then let's focus on them building that position and building those those things in place uh in races to make sure you can be there. And there's a good video I have it say on my phone of the Jirro last year with Ben on stage three or stage four when Pogatar does his st you know he's he's now famous attacks and Ben is on his wheel and then Pogar sits down and Ben is still there and then Pogar looked and then he went another attack and then Ben blew up and then I saw Ben's face.
He was like Pogatar is here. Ben is here and then you got Hinley, Martinez, Thomas 50 meters behind him and he's like, "Shit, I've just blown my beans." >> I actually remember this.
>> Yeah, it was on stage four and it was like and then it was like he completely effed himself because he went too deep. The group came across he got dropped from the group and then we were playing catch up the rest of the Groalia. Um but that was such a mad learning thing for him.
I was like chappo because you weren't afraid to go there. And you hear this thing always now about people saying I flew I flew too close to the sun. and I got burnt.
But >> so TA is the son. >> Is Taj is the son. Exactly.
Yeah. And it's just it's it's like I said I remember saying and what's funny that morning I said to Ben cuz I knew he was good. I said Ben just know when to pull the plug.
Go but know when to pull a plug. And he didn't pull a plug at the right time. But he learned that okay I can move.
I can get I can create a gap. I can create distance but know when to switch it off. Know when you need to pull off and do your own pace.
group comes across and you're all of a sudden there's pocket chart alone and you're like four guys, five guys and you're in in they're in in your bike rest. So that really is something that we try that I try to do is is allow them to express themselves to the best of their capacity but also knowing that yeah here's what we need to do. So we're building towards that and have doing a bit of a gap analysis of >> how far off the best like Felix Gall you take him like I seen Yonas's stats from von 2 and they're the for me I think they're the best stats I've ever seen.
Tades are slightly lower cuz he was in the wheel. >> But don't misquote. I think it's 6.
9 watts per kilogram for 54 minutes. >> It's the highest I've ever seen. >> Yeah.
>> How far off that is Felix G? >> Uh I mean straight up I mean he's a bit off. He's not he's not where where those guys are at.
I mean Felix is probably I know Felix has a bit of a bad rap sometimes because he's not the most technically gifted guy, but he's probably one of those guys who has ridden alongside those guys previously. I know in 2023 on the stage 20 he was it was him, Taj and Yonas with the last three standing. I think I think Felix came came second.
But again on on von 2 L plan uh I think Felix got dropped actually quite early this year on von 2. He he was really hot. He had a bad moment then he basically did the last 10k racing into von this year super super hard and go back to the point we discussed earlier on was in terms of bunch efficiency like I got the power file from Felix versus our helpers and our helpers who are sitting on the front of the pelaton eating wind are using less energy than Felix is in the pelon.
>> Yeah. So I mean that's that's him that that we have to work on with with him. But Felix, you know, he he's he's certainly in the upper echelons of of of the the the elite climbers.
He's he regularly do 6.5 6.6 was a kilo, you know, for for plus 30 plus 30 minutes.
We did a lot of like a lot of race simulation efforts when we did a training camp in in altitude before the tour. where we do a lot of efforts in that 64 to 66 watts keto range because I knew that's where he needed to be and those are quite risky days because you're going there. Okay, boys, today we're doing we did I think we did 4 by9 minutes and we did we did 5.
86 6.2 6.5 6.
6 something to that effect. I was like if he fails now I'm in big trouble because now we're we're we're three weeks out from the tour of France. So you're trying to make sure you're giving him enough exposure to what he needs but make sure he doesn't fail on those on those effort because always on race day the guys will always do more than what they do in training like those guys will never do those power numbers.
So what are the guardrails for you to go? It's a bad idea to do this session today cuz chances of failing here are higher than the ch you're looking at heart rate variability, sleep stats. What's determining that >> this and like that's the jiqua that is that is what it is.
It's one of those guard rails and knowing not to put your toe too too deep into the water or or to push it too much. And I look back on the training camp that we did in altitude and for whatever reason and I I reflect on it. I I'm I'm I kind of reflect most nights and that was probably one of the best camps we have done or we did because there was no moment where he blew his he blew his lid.
But what we did do I was very confident and I that's cuz I've worked with Felix now for four years that he came into the camp almost too strong. He was very very good and we frontloaded the camp. So I I basically smashed him for the first week in altitude.
Then he had a bit of a dip in the middle of it and which he was a bit worried about and I was like okay this is how it should be. Then by the second part of the camp, he was on the build build back up. And that second part of the camp was we started to expose him to those efforts.
And it to answer your question, I don't know. It's a bunch of things. It's like it's we were in camp for 3 weeks.
I see him at breakfast. I see him at lunch. I see him at dinner.
We chat we chat at night time. We have a coffee together. You know, I'm in the car for six hours a day watching the guys.
So it's all that kind of like subconscious information comes into me and I just make decisions based on, >> you know, actually this reminds me of a teammate who you probably know as well. one of my probably my one of my favorite teammates used to always room in the Ros Sean Lacy. Uh I learned so much from Sean.
I knew I thought I knew about Cycl until I started room with Shawn and it was just layers to the onion. But before big stages of races, we'd always listen to Kenny Rogers, the gambler. And there's a line in there, I made my career out of reading people's faces, knowing what the card said by the way they held their eyes.
It feels like a little bit of this that you're looking at. Does he what's a stare like at breakfast? You know, is he bringing the bowl to his mouth or is the spoon coming from the ground?
>> Yeah. I mean, you laugh, but that's generally what it is. And that's kind of where my job really what makes me an effective coach is is being present.
That's what I find now is is the my job. I'm super lucky that yes, I coach and I look at training peaks and I'm on I'm on Zoom and I'm on WhatsApp, but actually being present at a race or at a training camp for for three weeks, for two weeks, for 10 days is is incredible. And you know, from going on group rides with with people and and seeing people's face in group rides and and start going, their hips going, their elbows going, their their elbows come out.
You're like, and I it's funny with Felix, I'm not just him, but like guys, I'm behind I know his elbows come out. That's 420 watts right there. And then and then he goes like that's 450 now.
We probably should keep it at that. Not going to eat. >> You have Ben Healey with the head tilt.
>> Exactly. >> You seen the memes on Ben? >> Zone one, zone two, zone three, zone five.
>> And that's that's kind of the really the the kind of the thing as being a coach is trying to, you know, learn those things about the riders you you coach. And it goes back to really Yeah. understanding them and knowing knowing them know, not just the numbers, but knowing exactly how their body is is responding to those to those efforts.
How do you weigh these up? So we think about this almost holy trinity. Are you using training pics or vector?
>> We use both. I use both. Yeah.
So we'll have training pics is our is our like our training diary for one of a better word. And then we'll use vecta then as well. We've got Alex Camier, one of our coaches who's was heavily involved in developing vector as well with some of their their algorithms.
So we use that as well as a as a tool to um quickly analyze some sessions and also give us again some input. So then we can guide what we should do with the writers. So if we have this data layer where we'll lamp in resting heart rate, heart rate variability, sleep scores, training peaks, vecta data, we have what the writers are saying and then what you're observing.
How are you weighing these three up in the trifecta? Um, I think what the writer is saying for me is so important. Like the subjective feedback is so important as often the most difficult thing to get from writers because you can look at data and data tells you only very much half of the picture and a guy can go and do good wats but if they feel good or bad or if it feels easy or feels really really hard that tells you so much so much more.
So for me I will look at the the like I said the HRV the heart rate a lot of those those um quantitative metrics along with the power heart rate the har drift so on so forth but for me always the comment or the the little message a little voice note adds so much more more um like uh info to that to that to that making a better decision. So I will weigh I will weigh how they feel significantly hard more of a depth to that signal. That's what it is way way much more way more and that goes well with the connection you have from the writer to the co from the right writer to coach if there's good understanding there's a good relationship there that that subjective inflamm becomes even more powerful and it becomes even more useful to making better decisions and I will often make I will I would often I will with certain runners I will make decisions based on uh how they feel like I can ask with it when it we go back to your question which is a really good question how do we create guard rails in a training camp.
I'll have a coffee with the guys at at 7:30 a.m. or 8 a.
m. over breakfast and I'll I'll okay guys today we're doing this and I'm I'm not attached to my program. I'll write a program, spend a lot of time doing it and and but I'm not at all um precious about if we have to change or modify or increase or decrease.
And I think some coaches can be a little bit precious. Follow the plan, follow the plan. But no, you have to also be adaptable to to what's in front of you.
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What's the place of heat training? Now, >> I mean, it's it's something that we do a lot of, not from an acclamation point of view, from a physiological restraint to it. Yeah.
And and that's it's good thing to separate those two is that you have heat training and heat acclimation. I think heat acclamation is something that you do before going to a hot environment touring under you go to UE tour for example you can that can be done in in five six days but then with the heat training which is something that really we do over the course of a four to six week block we do it in two we we do it in two scenarios. One is uh during uh training blocks.
So we'll do it in in December, January camp where we'll we'll add on some sort of active heat training following uh a training session. The guys will come back in and we'll do some they do home trainer for maybe 45 minutes after uh an outdoor session. >> 38.
5 degrees. >> Yeah. Plus or minus 39 degrees.
Yeah. So we we kind of we measure we some guys have the core sensors. We we also have used in the past the the pill which which transmits the the core temperature and again we also use again the inear inear um temperature as well which which I use for my kid as well if he's got a temperature >> but and that's a real thing because everyone thinks they need to spend on tech all the time but a lot of this stuff it's you know if you have a kid >> yeah a lot a lot of stuff as well is just it's a number so I again we sometimes the number isn't actually the number it's just it's giving you a bit of a guide and that's why with a with you know your thermometer that you get uh from uh from you know the the thearmacies it can be just a good a tool to to >> because none of it's giving you your temperature.
Maybe the pill's giving you your temperature but it's it's skin temperature which is a proxy for your actual core temperature. >> Yeah. Exactly.
And that and with the pill the pill is probably the most reliable. The problem with the pill is we don't use it as much because if a rider has a crash you need an MRI that can then that can have an impact with a with an MRI. So that's why with the with the core sensor, it's probably the most user friendly, but it's like it's giving you a skin temperature and then it's using an algorithm then to kind of give you your core temperature.
So we'll we'll use that alongside you got thermal feeling. So guys will give a bit of an idea of what the thermal temperature feels like. But we will use that again quite extensively during the season where we'll do blocks of it before races.
uh not just if you're going for not just you're going to a hot environment and also I think where we use it the most or I found it to be most effective is post alitude camp pre >> that's what I've heard extending the effect of altitude >> so like for us we will do we'll do aldu camp dolphane heat to the to France or we'll do alitude to the Swiss heat to the france we'll use it certainly post alitude camps to make sure we can delay the decay of the benefits you get from altitude >> if you don't go to altitude and you just do heat adaptation protocol How long after coming off the heat protocol do you find it's returning to baseline? >> It's quite rapid. I mean that's all a lot of those things is quite rapid.
When you look at altitude, you look at heat the the the decay is quite rapid in those first five to eight days post uh you stop the intervention. So what we try and do is sometimes with certain riders who don't do altitude, we'll have a a six week quite extensive block maybe of three to five sessions per week and then we'll do a maintenance or what we try to call a maintenance where they might do one to two exposures. If it's passive, if if it's active, if they do a hot bath, if they do some sort of heat exposure or sauna, we'll try to do that.
Does it have an effect in delaying the decay? I think so. We don't we haven't really tested it, but I think having one or two sessions per week can help certainly help in in minimizing the the the delay.
>> We still don't do a super good job and I chat to Christian Shrout from Jacob about this. We still don't do a super good job in the gap between stimulus and adaptation understanding what drives adaptation in different riders. How do we close is there is it possible you think to close that gap between stimulus and adaptation?
You know, the example I'll give is, you know, if we're looking to add someone's 20-minute power, are we better off doing four by 8 minute threshold efforts, two by 20 minute threshold efforts, 2x 15 minute threshold efforts? We don't really get the answer for this for quite a long time. >> And yeah, and that's that's one of the kind of problems you have as a coach is you do a lot of trial and error and you're trying to figure out what what actually works with riders and and you're exactly right in that what how can we fast track the understanding to make sure we can give the rider the best stimulus for them.
And that goes to it goes to heat. It goes to attitude. It goes to is a rider going to respond better to block purization polarized because we I've had riders who just do not respond to polarized training.
They just don't they just whatever whatever reason they don't they don't respond to it. And then you you often hear about responders, non-responders, but then I begin to maybe maybe believe that it's just not being done well. I I do believe people will respond to most stimulus you give them, but we need to make sure we understand the dose, the timing.
Again, to use, >> but I guess it's the degree of response you were after as well. >> That's what it is. You're looking at like I said, go back what I said a while ago was, yeah, I don't really care if this method will give us a five watt improvement in your threshold, but if this method is going to give us a 10 or 15 watt, I I I the degree of the the degree of improvement is is much more important to us.
I think everything is going to give you a benefit if you're consistent. But I think certainly we have a lot of writers who who just yeah will respond to certain types of training. But I think a lot of that goes back to belief.
A lot of that goes back to the writers understanding is this actually making me better? Do they understand why they're doing it? And if they understand the why, I think then you get a lot more impact from >> this is maybe the biggest disconnect I see from when I speak to academics who aren't practicing in cycling and cycling coaches or physiologists.
The academics care about, hey, we ran this double blind placebo test with 200 participants. Here's the data. The coaches care about what effect does it have on Felix Gal.
What effect does it have on Primos Ruggage? I don't care what effect it had on the 200 people. >> Yeah.
And that that's one of the the disconnects that I said that there is between research and practice. And you know, all this big push now to have datadriven decisions and and you're right because a lot of now the the research papers that come out, they're done in in Yeah. they're done in maybe different uh different types of people or or or different levels of athletes and you actually can't really quantify actually is is this having an an effect or not.
A lot of the the so again I'll use data and I come from an academic academic background. It's one of the reasons why I left academia was because I just the disconnect was huge. I was having to teach students like academia which I knew wasn't actually re real wasn't actually happening in the real world and that kind of got me a bit I was a bit frustrated with that but a lot of the real world stuff like what we do in coaching best practice isn't always best practice and that you have this datadriven okay we got best practice and good practice but sometimes in the real world what data what the research says is best practice isn't actually always what's what's best to to make sure a writer is is is adapting or is is responding to a certain uh stimulus.
>> What sort of tools are you using? You mentioned vecta and that might be you know I've chat with Paul Antoine came over from Paris sah here we great chat founder of vecta there's a curiosity among the nonworld tour insiders as to what you guys are using training peaks vecta I know you're using viewer dayto-day you know probably something for mapping winds as well my wind sock or something what other tools are you using that amateurs are kind of blind to >> yeah like there's nothing nothing really super secret I mean We we certainly are using training peaks and and vector that are kind of the two big ones. I think everyone has those.
You got WKO5. We use again Velure which is really been a really useful thing that we can do to prepare to prepare for races. We can really dig into parkours and dig into the demands of of events and demands of races.
That's something that again I'm not sure do amateurs do that you go and look at the the the nationals parkour. you go and look at it and say, "Okay, well the nationals is going to be there's a there's a 2k climb at 5% and we do a lap 10 times. Okay, how can I prepare for that?
" So that's how I will use your for me. I'll go in and look at the the the roots of of of um of different races. >> It goes epic epic ride.
I think I've or Epic Ride weather, whatever it's called. I stupid name. >> Yeah, it's just like I can't Yeah.
Yeah. It's a weird name. >> Quid subscription though.
They got to up that for the world tour team. >> I mean we I mean Yeah, exactly. We we use that a lot.
I would say we use that it's our DSS will send out every morning before races so guys can see the risk of the risk of rain and that allows us then to choose okay tire pressure if we're using different material I mean that's one of my key things I will use each day to make sure I can give the correct tire pressure to the mechanics that we can okay there's risk of rain in the final therefore okay it's dry now but we're going to run wet pressure on our on our on our >> you running sham or Shimano >> this year Shimano yeah Shimano may change next year uh but where we've at Shimano, which is uh which has been Yeah. which is which is good. >> But you know, I'm not sure if Shimano has this where I'm running ShraMM and on your hammerhead with the new zips, it displays tire pressure.
>> Yeah, I've seen that with it's it's really quite cool. I I've seen some of the the different tools that different teams have used where you can also modify tire pressure in like a rub. But that's I think that's probably one big thing that's really changed in the last years is optimizing tire pressure.
Like we use we we have a company called Swisside uh who work with us and and they have got a they've got two simulation tools where we can chuck in a bunch of data. We can chuck in the parkour the weather um expected uh race speed now will tell us what material to use. So we've got a a range of different wheels that we have access to from from Swiss side from 65s 55s 50s 380s and then they will run a simulation or algorithm on the parkour and say okay today your best setup is a 56 chain 56 chain ring use the 550 wheels with this tire pressure >> but you know here's a hack for anyone listening Dan Bingham gave me throw all that stuff in the chat GP out the exact same thing for you exactly >> he said his edge has been erodeed by chat GPT >> bang in all the data your GPX text files, all your parkour information, gear choices that you have, everything.
Spit it all in and it'll spit out, he said, this fantastic recommendations >> 100%. And that and that's also one that's becoming more useful now in in teams is is uh is using AI where you can go into a like a lamb or a chat GPT. You pay your subscriptions chat GPT was a chat GT before.
Now you chuck in all your stuff and it it tells you it tells you what what tire pressure to run, what what gears you should use. I mean it's something that we don't use systemically with with the whole team but but yeah those are some of the kind of key things we we do use uh some software says nothing nothing mind-blowing but we definitely have quite a yeah we definitely use a lot of software and information that we collect to make better decisions when I heard the cat were coming across to H2R bikes the catons's kind of discount feel to it I think everyone in cycling had the same reaction going oh Jesus that lucky for the lads hasn't turned out that way at all. It's turned out to be a performance edge if anything.
They've really invested into the into the bikes, into the aerodynamics, into the kit, into the helmets. What's it been like on the ground? Feedback from the riders.
They happy with the stuff? >> No, it's been incredible. Like, it's been incredible.
I mean, I've been involved in the team seven years now, and we've had always a turnover of equipment and bikes every two years um for different reasons. But with the Catalon now, >> I mean, I I mean, I didn't know what the Catalon was until a few years ago. There was one built up here in Dublin a couple years ago.
>> A 2-year-old chew up. >> Yeah. And it was just something I never was never really aware of.
It was never around when we were when we were >> They have one Connell Street as well, actually. Now they have another one. Um, but what they've done is they're a brand which really want to show that they're not just a budget brand that you can go in and buy everything, but they're also like they have a high performance arm to it.
That's what Van Ryel is now. I mean really what Van Ryel have done is and quite literally what they've done is they've and I think it's been heavily said in the media that they went and they tested all the different bikes from different different manufacturers compared it with their their current um RCR or the RCR F. Um but what they did was they gave us the bike and said you tell us what is the best wheels, the best tires, the best group set, the best handlebars and then they allow the team to be able to build the best package.
they I think some teams or some companies will will bring the package to you but we were allowed with Van Roy's help and the cat's help to really build the best package which allowed us to again have one of the best performing uh uh setups. >> I've never been a huge understander. You know, you hear like cycling journalists jump on a bike and they're like, "Oh, it's vertically compliant and horizontally.
" I never have a clue what any of that means. I just been nodding along going like it feels grand. It feels basically the same as the last bike.
But do you see some of the guys like say Bennett versus Phoenix Gal, you know, is there Bennett obviously wants a bit stiffer? He wants it, you know, probably less flex around the bottom bracket. I'm sure there's a few bits that I know he's pretty geeky on his bikes.
There's a few bits around there. How much input does he get versus GC rider get riding different bikes? >> Yeah, so we we have two different bikes.
We have the Oruror R, which is our like lightweight climbing bike. We've got the Orure F which are which are like a sprint bike. But what's really good with with Van Ryel, they'll always have engineers there and they'll always have feedback from the riders and they're incredibly innovative in that they've produced this very very good bike.
But what's awesome is that even in December camp last year, they were there looking for more feedback um from the riders so that they can develop the next iteration of the bike will be even better. So Sam will he's he's really sensitive to like stiffness when he sprints. He's putting out 1600 watts in a sprint.
So he's really he's he's very sensitive if if the rear stay is flex or if there's too much flex in the bottom bracket or if there's not enough flex in the bottom bracket. >> Um so he'll give feedback and and a lot of time they will put that into their into their into their into their feedback loop. And like with Felix and the climbers they find the or almost too stiff.
So like on some days if there's a lot of like if there's a lot of like rough roads it can be too stiff so they can get like sore back. So they they also give feedback as well that they might try and make a bike less stiff which is more compliant that it's not not creating any soreness or stiffness or sore back. So it it really is I got to say they're they they haven't just given us the bike and say shut up and be happy.
They're like here's your bike. We're open to input which is again which is which you don't see very very often. >> We mentioned Sam as an Irish lad hooking up with Sam on the team.
Maybe definitely the greatest Irish sprinter, out and out sprinter of all time, >> but one of the generational sprinters, you know, green jersey, Sean Celiz win and Quickstep. >> He was kind of down on his fortune a little bit and your job maybe was to rekindle those golden years for him. How did you approach that challenge?
Like what were those first conversations like? >> Yeah, it was cuz I mean I don't I did know Sam well. I mean I knew Sam obviously we we raced together back when I was racing.
He was a 16-year-old like bleach, blonde hair, pierced ear. Remember that? Yeah, I do remember that.
Who's this little trying to on you? >> Yeah. But it was, you know, it was good.
I mean, I think one thing with Sam, what you learn with him is he's just he's got no airs and graces. He's always wants to learn you. You have a guy who's come in, he's probably won the best bike races.
You know, that day he won in the Shelles in the green jersey was like just it's it's dream stuff. But he he came into the team wanting to learn and he had no preconceived biases. He wanted to learn and improve and and get better and uh yeah again he came from a difficult few years.
He came into our team again he had some injuries last year. He had some wins. He he his first ever GC win in in in catur at Dunkirk which actually is six days instead of four days but he won that last year with some but he he just works he works off of confidence like with in Dunkerk last year he won stage two three and four and I knew he was going to win stage five and stage six just because he just works off confidence.
So you know he's he's you know he's been around a long time. He's there's I always said to Sam is that once once you can longer get better I'll tell you but right now he's still getting you he still can get better still areas that we are working on there still areas he needs to improve um but yeah he's you know we should see him this year he has some wins last year he has some wins this year he hasn't you know he didn't win the jurro this year which is disappointment he's got some big world tour races coming up he's in Poland this week of what he crashed actually yesterday went down stage one >> he went down stage one he got some uh he lost some skin but he's in good shape and it's cool to it's cool to You know, it's pity I didn't meet him in my career earlier, but it's also cool to be able to work with a guy like Sam who's like I said one of the yeah the foremost bike riders from Ireland. >> Like I wonder with Sam, you know, it's such a game of confidence it seems to sprinting and Sam seems to be as if not more susceptible to that confidence game than some people.
Like when he's winning, he's unplayable. Like I've seen some sprints where he's not even a sprinter. He goes from a K out on a slight uphill finish in Torque or of Wela and he just rides away and you're like he literally put 15 seconds into the ladder came second but then he struggles with form and he almost wears his heart on his sleeve as a viewer and as a fan you know someone's raced against him and then watching him from a distance you almost feel like the Sam that knocked Viviani off that wheel in Tour Britain to make that breakthrough of like who is this lad he was bold and he was brash Does money dull that at those key moments when you need to risk everything?
Is he still risking like he used to? Yeah, it's it's that's the big question is is are you still willing to make those again not going to say life or death decisions but sort of those those critical decisions and then those moments to really want to win and when you Sam still has that but like you you went you referenced there even this year in paid lore he went and he attacked on this like um this 1.5k 8% he dropped like Kevin Vlan who's like you know one of the breakout riders in the tour to France he was like seven in the tour to France GC won a stage last year he's dropping him on an uphill fishing like the hell's going on here, you know?
Um and that just and that's it's just confidence with Sam really is that does he still have that drive to win? No doubt about it. But sometimes in those runins he questions himself and he's just he doubts himself and he just needs it to click and once it clicks then it can click then for you know multiple days in a row.
Then he goes back home, he trains, and he he's trying to find that he's trying to find that click every every time. And yeah, you you get to a point in your career where he's won, you know, he's won I don't even know how many bike races he's won. He's won more than 60 bike races.
Um but yeah, it's it's one you try to support them to show them, yeah, man, you're you're strong. You you can sprint, you're good. just back yourself, believe yourself, and then go headto-head with uh like we saw this year in Torino, he went headto-head with Milan, John Han, he just he just missed out on on winning the sprint in Torino.
Uh and then in the Jira, then it was days where he just kind of questioned himself and he actually was never actually in the mix to sprint. Uh so yeah, it's it's it's a it's a different challenge, but yeah, my job really is to show him that you're still freaking strong. >> And the Watts are the same.
>> I mean, it's mad like the Wats are almost better. It's I mean it's it sounds almost stupid to say it but like you look at him his threshold is better than what it was five years ago but the whole sport has also increased a lot gone on but in terms of peak power. Yeah he's he's not he's not 200 watts less than what he was 5 years ago.
You know it's it's he's still there. It's trying to just be in the right position to to execute uh those watts. >> It's it's fascinating.
Uh Steve, I really appreciate you coming to chat and it it's super insight like it's really I could sit here for the next two hours and just listen. It's it's brilliant insight into what's going on at the world tour on a really human level as well without any you know facade or veneer of which you sometimes get. >> But that's why it's cool for me to chat like sometimes we chat about this session that session but it's also cool for me to kind of give people an idea that I'm a normal guy who who you know from Cork lived in Waterford and and I'm working in a French team.
I never spoke French in my entire life. So, it's kind of it's nice to show people that this is not some Yeah. dream that Yeah.
It's kind of cool. And I know I'm also in a in a privileged position. I also I can work on world tour and there's not a whole lot of world tour coaches.
So, I'm always happy to come and chat. And >> last question. You coming back for one more.
>> I'm only I've only done two. So, I mean I mean I I mean I turned 40 this year. So, I mean I had these great ambitions to go and go and do a marathon or go and do something.