Riding faster on gravel. It's not about copying road training plans or just riding longer and harder. It's about training smarter for the unique demands of the surface.
In this episode, I'm really honored to sit down with one of the queens of gravel. It is Miss Rosa Closer. She breaks down today exactly how she prepares to win for the biggest gravel races in the world.
She's already won unbound rifts. She's winning on courses that couldn't be more different from each other. We go deep into how she structures her training blocks.
Why V2 max and fatigue resistance matter more than you might think and how nutrition, pacing, and altitude play a bigger role than raw power alone. Welcome to the Roadman podcast. Rosa Closer Closer.
Welcome to Roadman podcast. >> Thank you so much. >> We're doing it in person.
>> Yes, finally. >> We're coming up in the world. Last time we talked, you were a poor student and I think I was recording in my mom's basement.
basically a room like Harry Potter and the the staircase, but that was it. >> H you've seem to have unlocked how to win gravel races pretty well or at least be at the pointy end of gravel races very consistently. Help me figure out how to do that.
like what what are the component pieces in this from training to nutrition to preparation cuz and course like course specific because the courses that you're performing on are so different from last time we chatted I think you just won unbound you know now you've gone gravel art series rift that like I can just rattle off all the gravel races basically and you're there or thereabouts the courses are so different like the course challenge from rift to unbound very Let's maybe start off around training. How do you think about preparation for different gravel races? Is there like a general preparation phase and then it moves into a specific preparation based on the race?
Yeah, great questions. I think it depends as always. Um, I would say in general my training is much more basic, um, and much more similar to what a normal road racer considers a normal road racing training schedule than most would think.
So I do train really polarized uh in the sense that I focus either on like V2 max sessions or on endurance rides which uh I do in zone 2 but also a lot of fatmax intervals. Um so especially when we think of gravel um the time where you spend a lot of time in is fatmax um or sweet spot because of just the surface if you think about it there's way more resistance than on the road. So, especially in those more demanding gravel races, you never have this pure like real recovery time.
And I think that is super essential for gravel racing in particular, that you're capable of spending a lot of time in this zone that is okay and feels fine, but actually doesn't really allow for you to fully recover. And when it comes to that, of course, uh answering another of your questions, nutrition becomes super crucial. So really trying to be able to have a super hard and high uh carb intake during training but also in races.
So I would say when it comes to courses, so your question if I do train differently AC uh depending on the race, yes and no. Of course, if we look at the the big goals of the season, um such as Unbound, for sure, um I tend to integrate a few of those really, uh long, um rides where I burn through a lot of kgs, uh just to make sure like first of all, I get my nutrition strategy right uh also for the race because that's I think such a vital part of it. Um and then of course yeah just to also be mentally I think to be honest in my opinion and I think this is what my coach shares as well there is no need to do these 8 to 10 hour rides to be actually able to to race for 10 hours but I think for a lot of people that do that that's more to be mentally ready >> rewinding to the we're far away from the events now So, let's talk about the overall structure of training now.
Like you you mentioned your polarized 8020 block, so 80% easy, 20% harder. Is it V2 max moving into something else or are you sticking with largely V2 max aerobic mix or is it like block dependent or how do you think about putting those blocks together as you move into the actual race season? Yeah.
So, yeah, we uh really use a block approach. Uh I think that's fair to say. So, actually, you're catching me at a great time because now my uh hit block is starting.
And when I say hit block, I really mean hit block. So, uh for me, it's now I think for the next eight days, a structure of two days hit intervals, which are V2 max sessions with one basic recovery day slash low inensity day that is also quite short and then we repeat the structure. So always two days of high intensity workout with one easy endurance day that is no more than two to three hours to kind of like you know recover reset and then I would repeat this and I think I repeat the V2 um interval double block basically at least three times up to four times and after this block is completed so a total duration of let's say yeah six um hit uh workouts with three recovery days so nine days then after that hit block is completed.
We're starting with a volume block. >> What's a V2 max session look like in this block? >> So, for instance, uh today um I I haven't trained yet.
Um because I was traveling. Uh today would be a four time 8 minute. Um >> that's sticky >> actually.
It's my favorite workout. >> It's just it's 8 minute like >> on the gas at 8 minutes. >> Yes.
Yes. But I really like it because you go really really fast. But especially I think as as a gravel athlete first um it's this very uncomfortable pace but that you can know that you can do for multiple minutes.
So I actually really like it. It's it's like a slow death kind of interval. >> Do you train using critical power or functional threshold power still?
>> Uh for this um interval I'm actually going above FTP. I'm going at around 106% of uh FTP, I would say. >> Okay.
>> Yeah. >> Of your 1 hour power for FTP. >> Um of my Yeah.
I mean, I I never actually tested one hour FTP. Um I mean, I think hopefully not that many people have to do that. >> I have a session.
I call it happy hour. >> Oh, you call it to some friends. It's like an ironic name cuz you won't be happy.
Yeah, exactly. [gasps] >> It's miserable. Actually, it's funny how that's developed, isn't it?
Cuz when it started out, you read the original manuals, it was like go ride as hard as you can for an hour. And then obviously there was so much feedback going like, "Oh, that's so bad. I can't do that.
" That they brought it back to 20 minutes. And now new stuff is like, "Oh, if you do 3 by 8 minutes or something, that can be a proxy for the 20 minute, which can be a proxy for the 1 hour." Like, at some point, we need to roll the sleeves up here.
>> Exactly. 10 by 10 second sprints which can be a proxy for the 8 minute which can be a proxy for the 20 minute. >> But I yeah I've seen a lot of athletes are moving away from the training peaks threshold model.
>> Yeah. >> Into Vea and starting to use critical power. >> Is that something you've chatted about with your coach?
not in these [clears throat] specific terms um necessarily, but actually funnily enough, my coach actually rarely lets me do any sort of like FTP testing kind of things rather like we progress with the intervals. So >> yeah, >> what we do is of course um we do a lot of lactate testing. So, we're looking more at like the actual lactate values uh to determine my uh my FTP um to then determine where I should do my intervals rather than using actually a test um like a 20 minute test or an hour test to to determine this because it's like at that point of the season I guess the most accurate measure you can look at.
Um and in that way we then would adjust um yeah the level for the interval. So you're just nudging like 10 watts extra onto the interval >> basically from from my FTP. You mean?
>> Yeah. Like if you get the lactate readings back and I guess he's looking for first inflection point, second inlection point. And then based on that, is he taking the V2 max intervals and he's saying, "Hey, okay, instead of 400 now you're doing them at 410 or now you're doing them at 420 >> around that.
" I mean, usually it's a percentage. Um, yeah, exactly. Usually it's a percentage.
Uh, and usually I never have to do it at a specific value, but more range. >> Okay. >> Um, so I mean I think I can reveal for my 4x8 minutes I'm at around 320 325 watts.
>> Um, >> you're teeny though. >> Sorry. >> But you're so small.
But it's funny when you meet someone in person, you're like, >> "Whoa, I just assume from Zoom you're so much bigger." >> Yeah. Yeah.
I mean, I'm uh I'm actually quite tall. I'm 177. Um, so, um, I am quite tall.
Um, but yeah, I I think especially like I said it before, like I really like the 8 minute intervals. So, yeah. >> And is the I think this will crack me if it was the same interval session.
So, you're doing like that interval session the next day the exact same. >> No, the next day I would rather go to a bit of a shorter interval, a more intense interval. So, um, in the intensity of the interval.
So there I would go look more at like 3 * 10 * 4020s. >> Okay. >> Um so usually what we do uh is we start off with a little bit of a longer duration interval at what um he declares as EB intensity.
So basically yeah closer to the threshold. And then what we um uh would do the day after is IE uh intensity intervals uh in the V2 max area which are really anorobic. Um so that we're looking more at going at like more than above 120% of FTP.
>> Oh yeah, I like 4020s. It's an old Michael Ferrari session back in the day. He's the first one.
You know, Ferrari was like everyone pretended they were being coached by someone else. like Armstrong pretended he's been coached by Chris Carmichael. But this Italian doctor Ferrari was actually coaching everyone and he's the first guy credited with the 4020 session.
>> It's like a classic maybe one of the only positive legacies from that US Postal era was that 4020 session. >> Still a favorite of mine. So when you progress from the V2 max block, it's a four-week block or shorter?
>> No, no, it's it's only a two week block. Um because really like I'm doing I think four weeks I think then you at one point you will go crazy because you're going like every like you repeat two days with like one longer interval session like longer interval in in it and then the shorter interval session like the 4020s and then you have like this recovery like endurance day and then you repeat this two-day block around four times. So in total we're coming up with like only a twoe uh V2 block.
And do you need visibility for like macro visibility to be able to zoom out and see what the whole 12 months looks like? Do you enjoy that? >> Um yeah, I mean we um basically what we do we plan towards in that sense we actually do plan towards goals or events.
So basically we are looking at like okay um this is the upcoming year and we know um I'm going to start racing in this week. Um and then we kind of also talk about like is this a priority A race? Is this a priority B race?
So kind of like with what kind of training load do I go into this uh into this race? And then around that we kind of structure the training. And something that I noticed for myself that worked really well this year and um I tried to really implement is to race in a more um block approach as well.
So basically um have like a series of like six to eight races um very close to each other. Okay. And then basically really focus on on racing and that's usually like a four to six week week block and then actually um take it back to actual training and uh train for three to four weeks before I would head into the next like race block.
So, it's your designations of priority A or priority B. How does preparation change based on that designation? Is that just to do with your freshness level going into the race?
You'll have a longer taper for priority A. >> Yeah, I would say so. So, um I especially this, uh this year, let's say there were some really nice races, but races that I saw more training races, like some of the UCI World Series races that were a bit smaller.
Um and then I just went into the races with full training load. With that being said, that still means the day before the race, I only like do a one and a half, two hour like, you know, warm-up ride. So, I wouldn't like do a 6 hour, you know, endurance ride right before the race.
But I would easily go in and then together with the race I would have a 25 hour volume kind of week which is a pretty big week. >> It's a world tour week. >> Yeah.
Yeah. >> World. Yeah.
That's heavy volume. It's a bit of fatigue to be carrying. Do you find you feel >> better with a little bit of fatigue going a lot of riders like if you're still on training peaks your coach is assumingly using the performance management charts.
A lot of people live and die by this. >> Okay. Okay, the TSB needs to come up towards zero for freshness and that intersection for form.
A lot of people report like at that zero level, they feel too fresh, like undercooked. >> I couldn't agree more. Um I think for me es especially um when I come off like a high volume block or especially um off an altitude block where I mainly train a lot of hours and less intensity usually um then I tend to perform best.
Yeah. >> What's your altitude exposure like? I know you're spending a bit of time you're living in and Pandora now.
Yes. >> You're resident in Andor. You're spending all your time in and Pandora.
It's slightly different, but how much time are you spending in Andor? And like what's the protocols around exposure? >> So, um, currently I'm living uh quite high in Andor, so on, 1900 m of elevation.
So, just perfect um to to get a proper altitude effect, but not overstress the body. Um, and um, so at this stage, I would say I'm quite adapted to the altitude. So, usually I take just for for protocol reasons and to make sure everything is is good and I'm healthy throughout the season.
Um, if I start into a training block the first day, I start easy, but I don't really need this uh ramp up um anymore because yeah, I'm quite adapted to that level of altitude at least. So I I usually just when I go up I train one day easy and then from the next day on I can train at the intensities and at the volume that I would usually do. That being said um if I do intense intervals, so everything above threshold, I would try usually to go down to at least 1,300 m.
Um which is actually quite easy to do in Dora. >> Yeah. >> So you're you're train high sleep high.
Yes. Um besides four intervals. Yeah.
>> Yeah. >> It's interesting. And is have you noticed that you need uh like Bling Matches was on the podcast last week and he was saying for his altitude exposure, it does nothing for him to go for a week, two weeks.
He needs to be there for at least three weeks. Have you found that it's time dependent? >> Uh yeah, for sure.
I mean um if I because I lived there so sometimes I only go for a week then I would totally agree. I don't feel like this this magical boost after. But for me at this stage um if I do um a really focused training block already two two and a half weeks um create quite a good effect for me personally.
Um but yeah, I think um everything below two weeks um doesn't really do the job >> because it does divide I don't know a lot about altitude, but isn't there like genetic responders and genetic non-responders to altitude? Yes, exactly. Um, so there's actually um quite a lot of different responses like depending yeah on on how you're um physiologically built.
Um some people for instance so some people would argue okay if you don't um for instance feel good at altitude it means that there's like a significant effect uh because you actually your body actually needs a lot of adaptation to it. Um but then other people say okay if you actually do perform well at altitude you also get a super high stimulus from it. So, [snorts] I think it's so individual um that you can't really um say how it would be for yourself unless you've actually tried it.
Um and like actually did a test before and after. Um and uh luckily um for me uh I I have the testing situations because I race races where I do not come from altitude and then I do races where I come straight from altitude [snorts] and uh for me especially like this two to three day period after altitude is where I feel the strongest effect and that's also very personal again. So there's uh people who have this um intense direct effect, so right off altitude, and then other people more go for like the 3-week effect, which we often see that the GC containers in the tour etc aim for.
>> Yeah. And it seems like a lot of people for the second use case you mentioned are starting to lean on heat training now to extend the benefits of altitude training. >> Yes, I've I've done that too as well.
Um, for instance, I went on uh altitude um before the tracka and came right off um just from Adora straight to the race and then um because I had to travel to the US for Unbound already like eight or 10 days prior, I knew I couldn't do that. So um then I decided um yeah to to travel to to Amband without an additional altitude block but then basically had the the secondary effect um for the race and in between US training to kind of like extend it because I think it would like unbound is almost four weeks after the traa. So it's just a bit more than where you you should peak.
So yeah try to use some heat training to extend that effect. And heat training seems to again subdivide into like active heat training where you're getting on the bike and riding easier zone one, zone two, but ramping core temperature up to like 38.5 or depending on the protocol >> and passive heat training where you're getting into a bath where you're sitting in saunas.
Did you use a mixture of both? >> Actually, yes. Um but the sauna part I mostly used actually really for clim climate uh adaptation.
So really more for the actual adaptation for this for the purpose of being ready to perform um at high temperatures. Whereas um the on the what you call active adaptation, the on the bike training um doing it in this really controlled environment where you check your core sensor and make sure that um you're you're ramping up your body cop temperature to like 38.4 I think was for me or 38.
2 kind of that range. Um that was more to you know extend this altitude performance effect. >> It's pretty miserable, isn't it?
>> Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, it is.
But um to be honest uh I really like the heat. So for me it's uh [sighs and gasps] it's just another day. >> I think the way you're using it.
I haven't seen that on this but that seems to make sense. Like if I'm looking for the physiological adaptation for the heat training I'm doing the active on the bike. If I'm looking to acclimate >> Yeah.
Exactly. Acclimate. That's the word.
>> It makes more sense for me. I don't know the data on this, but it seems like it makes more intuitive sense that acclimating works in the sauna rather than active. >> I think you could argue for both because I think again and I'm a really strong believer of that.
I think acclimation is of course to some degree for sure your your body and really like physiological adaptation or acclimatization but again I think it's also mental and I think if you do a heat session repeatedly on the bike and you actually put yourself in the situation where you you know ride and sweat a lot and kind of like, you know, suffer from from from the heat that you're producing, you're more ready to maybe endure this situation in a racing scenario. And I think >> in that way it helps. >> When I started cycling, I had a experiment like this.
I I I'll preface this with I knew nothing about anything. I was like in university and I remember cycling nutrition like wasn't what it is now. But my knowledge even was like 2% probably of the knowledge then.
So I had this idea that if I don't eat or drink anything when I'm training it'll be like miserable >> and then when I start racing when I introduce food on water it's going to be like oh yes it's game on time. Yeah. That didn't work so well.
>> Yeah. Yeah. Because on and in the end you also have to train your gut I I assume.
And also you need to recover. >> Yeah. Also >> probably didn't work that well.
>> You got to make it home as well. >> Exactly. Exactly.
Or you have to also make it to the race. >> Yeah. I was like on the side of the road one day and no money like begging a girl who was selling strawberries like please can I have some strawberries like I might die.
>> I like may not make it home. Do you have data on how big of an effect altitude makes on you or is it anecdotal? >> [sighs and gasps] >> Um I mean we haven't done like specific evaluations but I can say that I did uh did hit some PBS um on like five and 10 and 20 minute efforts coming straight off altitude even in race scenarios which is I mean quite nice because usually you you hit those PBS fresh in training.
Um but um yeah and I mean just the general feeling um afterwards um again was pretty positive. So and I mean I I can just tell that but I mean I think we talked about this last time. It's always you have to take everything with a grain of salt because on the one hand side I think uh we joked about this uh when when I just entered the door here.
Um I mean um also we have to still for me personally be be transparent about the fact that this is my first year really training as a professional. So every like two or three hours volume I do more of course has an impact and I can recover better. I don't have to stand in the classroom at 8 a.
m. anymore after a race. So I think alone due to that fact um I can see a massive performance improvement um in in all my data points um but also the way you know I can eat uh and recover um has changed.
>> Are you enjoying being a full-time athlete? >> Yeah, for sure. No, I I really do enjoy it quite a lot.
Um I wouldn't be me if I wouldn't still of course still have like my side hustles and um still work on the research here and there. And then of course especially like you know in my situation as being a gravel privateeer and a road cyclist. I kind of you know still have other obligations than just training.
Um so I think mixing it up that makes it quite nice for me. >> What's your side hustles? Yeah, I mean first of all I'm still working on on my PhD papers.
Um so I still have meetings [clears throat] with my supervisors especially now like in offseason or in slow season where I don't race >> and uh for instance in July I still attended a conference. Um but then of course you know uh working as a privateeer in gravel with individual sponsors. Um I am very known to be quite like into developing products and being quite techdriven.
So for instance now in offseason I flew to Silverstone with my partner to do some rolling resistance testing. >> Must be a good rig. >> Yeah.
Yeah. Exactly. Um for for the Conti tires I'm using um on gravel um then visited Canyon.
looked at some new projects they are planning uh and and gave some feedback there um yeah and just like in general working with partners developing concepts um yeah all that >> a few weeks ago Angelo Poli of Metro joined us on an episode it was episode 1231 five tips to speed up your metabolism and the response to that episode was absolutely huge some of the biggest response we've had to a podcast all year a lot of you reached out with DMs and questions and feed feedback. So, MetPro on the back of this has joined us as a show sponsor. If you missed that episode, I'll link it in the show notes down below.
Now, if you're watching this, you already train smart. You've dialed in your workouts, your power numbers, maybe even your recovery protocols. You're tracking intervals.
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co. coor dan. I'm going to leave that link in the description down below.
>> We started a conversation talking about almost how do you decode being competitive in these races like training obviously one huge component but >> somebody that's because these races are becoming mass participation races as well. So listeners and viewers look to you and the similar top pros to figure out what equipments to use to figure out how to approach the demands of the course to figure out how to feed on these courses. When you look at a race like Rift, how do you go about breaking that down to come up with that finished performance?
Yeah, I think there are a couple of races and the Rift is for sure one where I would say there you really should go in prepared um and also prepared to face challenges because the race is incredibly hard um and beautiful and a huge experience. But maybe also to embrace that this race is a challenge in alone finishing it for some people. Um on one hand side for sure from like a physiological um point of view because it's like a seven maybe 7 and 1/2 hour effort for most people um with I think uh a lot of altitude meters um on extremely slow rolling terrain.
So I think um at the rift you will find if you would go into the pros training peaks accounts you would find some of the highest uh averages um when it comes to to power uh for that race because it's also like not really possible to to get a lot of benefit from drafting someone there. Uh but then what you mentioned um being prepared to to have enough nutrition on bot. So I think for this kind of race you really need to sit down and and ask yourself okay um what am I capable in in consuming um in a race uh over an hour and then maybe plan 10 10 grams to 20 grams more um and in addition to that it was it's in July we're still in Iceland it's quite cold there so um make sure to still take in the fluids um and then I And when it comes to to racing, I think you just really have to be ready to suffer.
I think nobody that does this race will go there and says this was an easy ride. And I think that is also something in my mindset that changed a lot for me this year. Maybe to come back to your question, how kind of like I cracked the code to to win a lot of races is that I dared like I really dared to race.
And I think at this point I'm I'm quite known to be quite an active or like you know aggressive racer. Um and for instance at the rift um the group we were quite a big group of riders and um there was really like close to zero collaboration and already so it's a 200 km race. Um after three 30 km in um I attacked the group because yeah I couldn't stand like kind of uh almost still standing and then I had to ride 170 km by myself.
>> Yeah was pretty bold when I seen the results I was like ouch that one's got to hurt. So does preparation give you a confidence for that attack? Like have you pre-ridden the course?
Are you aware of climbs that are coming up? technical descents and you're writing an effort on each of these climbs or is it like do you have a a game plan for these climbs you go climb number two I have a good idea what the distance is here I know what sort of power I can hold on that climb or is it mainly just going on feelh [sighs] depends so I mean for the rift specifically since um it's such a gnal uh course and such a huge course um I arrived I think only two two and a half days prior to the is so I could only review like the first 30 and last 30k of the course and I couldn't do the huge loop. Um, >> did you crash as well in the >> in the race?
Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.
I had a small uh crash at the end because the weather turned supernaly. started like raining and like the visibility was like really really bad and I was just like, you know, as as I always like to do it, like descending like full gas and I just completely oversaw and there was like these enormous bumps in in in the track like really where you really had to lift your front wheel and you had to like somehow like sometimes just jump and usually they had signs um even to kind of like warn you and just honestly honestly I oversaw one of them when I was descending and I just like full on like jumped over one of those, you know, bumps and uh hit the hole be be behind the bump uh with my front wheel and like got it a little bit tangled up and uh had a small crash. Um but yeah, it was it was not too bad.
>> You had like a 10-minute lead or something. >> Yes. >> Dust yourself down.
>> Send a text. on. >> No time for text.
But um yeah, there was luckily enough time. But I was that in this moment I was more thinking to myself, come on, Rosa. Yeah.
Um, now you actually have quite a nice lead. What are you doing here? But it was honestly not not even that I was like, of course I was getting going at a good speed on the downhill, but it was not that I was trying to risk anything, but it was simply Yeah.
>> Did you know how far ahead you were? Were you getting time checks? >> Actually, [snorts] not that much.
Um so especially at the start you know when when you also know um that uh there's still a cohesive group chasing you [snorts] uh you get quite stressed and I was always asking like for time gaps and I wasn't really getting one until I think I was already riding almost 60 70k by myself like someone on the sidelines um just screamed to me I think around 3 minutes and um then I knew okay 3 minutes I mean I knew I still had like over 100k to go, but I also know that you in order to close me, you have to go faster than I do. And especially the second part of the race became very climby again. And um as we talked a little bit about, I am very nerdy and I am very techy.
And I also kind of know what power I can do and what power other people can do. So yeah, I I kind of knew that uh if I can keep it up uh and I don't blow up, then then I can take it home. >> So are you pacing this evenly when you're out there?
You've established the gap and you're like, "Okay, I'm am I pacing this to bring this home or am I pacing this to have some bullets left in the chamber if a small group comes across to me?" >> Um again, it depends. So of course at the start you're trying to to to create a big enough gap, right?
So I think I would never be confident um with just like a half minute one minute gap because especially like you said like let's say you have a small crash or a small mechanical um etc etc um you you can't uh you can't allow yourself there with a small gap. And I mean maybe to to jump over to a different race. You can see that sometimes even like a two or three minute gap is not enough for me at the Europeans this year.
Um >> I forgot about that. >> Yeah. So there I think I was off the front for more than 40k solo solo and I had I I don't know exactly but I was communicated afterwards that it was above a 2 and a half minute gap.
>> Talk us through what happened cuz maybe not everyone has seen that. That was epic. >> Yeah.
Epic. >> Epic if you weren't you. >> Yeah.
if if if the person wasn't me. Yeah, for sure. No.
Yeah, exactly. This year the European Gravel Championships took place in Italy on a really um surprisingly gnarly course for the UCI, which I really applauded um as a gravel racer. Uh with NAI, I mean, um that there were descents um that while pre-writing uh them, I kind of already knew, okay, this will be good.
like uh this will be good in terms of if you're a gravel racer, but this will not be so good if you're a road racer and you're not used to these kind of descents uh because they were quite technical to be fair and um I think a lot of people actually underbiked for this event. So, um, usually from the UCI championships, uh, especially if we look to this year's World Championships or even the year before, it's a terrain where like a 40 mm slick tire is kind of probably the right choice. Um, for this event, I think if you would have chosen a 2.
0 or 22. That could have been the right choice, but not even I chose that because >> um I I traveled with my Canyon Grail, which only fits a 45 mm tire. Um so yeah, for sure quite a gnarly terrain.
Um and um yeah, the race was very demanding um with like longer climbs and I think already after the halfway point in the race um I found myself at the front with only Erica Mcnaldi from UAE. Um and >> she's been on the podcast actually. >> Yeah.
Oh, amazing. Um yeah, so she she I think that was one of her first uh gravel races and um she I think is known to be quite a good climber in the women's world tour and um yeah so we were riding together um and um then um at this so-called descent um already it was three laps already on the first lap um we were still a group of three or four riders. I could distance the other three riders, but I decided to wait um after the descent because I maybe had a five to 10 second gap.
Um and I knew it was still like a long way to go and it was a strong cohesive group. And um yeah, then with one lap to go uh or a bit more than one lap to go, um Erica tried to follow me on the descent and I think made a small mistake and I think even crashed and then I found myself off the front solo. Um and then I knew it was kind of go time.
Um, so I put in a bit of an effort and could pull out a gap over 2 minutes and then I came back to that descent that I really liked and I was just done with the descent and uh to be honest I think that reminds yourself as well especially in gravel it's never over till it's over because really on the last 50 m of this uh gravel descent and from that then on it was basically 7 km to the finish line and from those 7 km it was 5 km ter on road. So it was kind of if you made it down that descent and you had more than a 30-cond gap and you were doing still like kind of your sweet spot, you would you would have it. >> And um yeah, literally on the last 50 m of the descent, I heard like a loud and I I realized that the my rear tire had gone flat.
Um [snorts] but I was currently at like 50 km/h. So I was like just trying to roll out uh slowly down down the road um and then stopped and try to you know find the hole and plug it but um unfortunately no sealant um I'm running cubeless setup uh escaped. Um so I decided okay what am I going to do now?
So I put in a CO2 to hope that that the tire would just inflate. Unfortunately I think it took like maybe 2 PSI or something or three three PSI. So, I made the choice, okay, um, I'm not going to give up.
So, I jumped back on the bike and started my mission to get this bike to the to the finish line, which was, I think, uh, for people who have not watched races, like friends of my, you know, parents or like who have nothing to do with cycling, they really ask me, "What were you doing there, Rosa?" Like, because it basically looked like I was like ice skating with my my bike. So, um, around every corner, I just, uh, really prayed that I wouldn't crash.
And, yeah, then I made it to the 1k to go banner, and I was like, "Okay, actually, maybe maybe it's going to be okay, you know." Um, but then honestly, that final the Italians, they put in too many corners. Uh, they there there was this square and you had to go around all of these corners and you could just like see my rear wheel like slide and seal and smash from right to left.
[laughter and gasps] And yeah, I would say there were three corners too much because I think with 300 meters to go, I was uh overtaken by a charging pair of Erica Mcnaldi and Sophie Wright who then sprinted it out for for the victory and I rode over the line in third. So yeah, that was a sad day. >> It's so hard to ride a bike with >> tubeless totally flat.
Like I flatted on the way home from the group ride. I would say the week after that happened to you. I was like 2k from home.
It was pouring rain and I was like, I'm going full rolls of closer on this. I'm not changing this. I'm too cold.
>> So, I just rode home. But I was like Bambi on ice. I was like, and I was in a straight line.
And every time I hit like a little crack on the bike path, >> it's like fish tailing on me left. >> But I'm so happy you can relate to me now. And maybe now you have like a little bit of more appreciation for my backhanding skills because I I must I totally get it.
must think like some people must think like how does this girl ride around corners? Um yeah. No.
Um yeah, that was uh definitely a good learning. I think now I'm I'm ready to to to run some tires without air, which I prepare not to do in the future, but yeah. >> Did you have liners?
>> No, I actually did not. Um, of course, like in that situation, I would have wished to have some, but I found for me usually that um, when it's a small hole, um, usually the sealant can, um, get more easily towards that small hole without liners. But I totally agree, especially I see the the advantage of liners, especially in these shorter kind of like um, circuit races, you know, where you have like mechanic support.
to a pit. >> Exactly. Where you have a pit, then I totally see liners.
And I think that for specific races, they make a lot of sense. And in that case, I think we can all agree that this could and probably would have uh saved me this this this race. But yeah, you never know.
>> You got the gap in that race on the descent. You're notoriously a very good bike handler. That's maybe the blind spot for so many amateurs that because gravel really has just emerged for a lot of people in the last three, four, five years, whatever.
Most people were on the road coming to it. That's been the typical journey. Yeah, there's a few outliers or like mountain bike first and then come to it.
But the masses are coming from road into gravel >> and they're pretty scared on some of these gnarly courses. Like you go and you do a Santa Val like my girlfriend came over and rode Santa Val last year. like she's a pretty good bike handler for a newbie, but it's still pretty gnarly.
It is like you're underbiked on the gravel bike a lot. >> What advice would you give for somebody that's trying to skill up? Like how did you develop your skills so fast to such an advanced level?
>> For sure. I mean personally um and I'm doing a lot of research there basically really investing time together with my partners going to Silverstone um to actually do some testing on tires. I would say if if you especially if you are more new to gravel, I would always recommend you choose a tire um in in the current state of bikes and gravel bikes what they spec that almost maxes out your your tire clearance, especially when you face terrain here in Spain.
um or even yeah at Unbound which is maybe not the most technical race but it's still bumpy and the higher volume tire choice will give you way more comfort and maybe yes it will make you add like two to six watts uh in specific circumstances but if you can descend the the descent uh I don't know 45 seconds faster because um you dare breaking like uh 2 seconds later in every corner it will help you a lot. Um, and it will just give you comfort and then you can always downsize later if you if you feel the need for it. Um, but um, yeah, I I would say choose a higher volume tire, a bit more grippy tire um, that allows you to to gain trust uh, with the bike.
Um, but I must also say I love Santaval and I love the track and I love all the Class Mark events, but some like family friends ask me, Rosa, like I see what you're doing with gravel racing. I would love to do some gravel racing. I think next year I'm gonna sign up for the tracker as my first gravel race.
And I tell them, do not do it. >> It's too technical. >> It's too technical.
You will not have a pleasant experience. It's a great event. I think it's a it's a really great event for you and at one point please go for it but don't let that be your first gravel race.
>> I think it's too technical for 70 to 80% of the field. I >> I agree. I agree.
Um and uh I think personally I as a gravel racer, someone that rides gravel a lot, I love that race. I think it's great that it's technical. Uh I think this race is structured in a way that it really does suit um you know a full-time uh gravel racer over a road pro and maybe also yeah you know gives a gravel racer to to perform at the highest level there but um especially for someone yeah looking to do their first gravel race.
I think either you have to really have have that mindset of like being okay with maybe walking some desense. Yeah, that's good advice actually. >> Um, and then just, you know, approaching it like that and really seeing it as this experience and not being afraid to go off the bike if you don't uh dare descending.
>> I think one of the problems for newbies is they very few skills to get out of a bad situation. So, you can carry a lot of speed. I remember one part in Santal that's there like a pipe or [snorts] something.
>> Yeah. Yeah, I know. Exactly.
>> And you have to like jump it. >> Yeah. Yeah.
Yeah, >> like or you at least have to have like raise your front wheel a bit. If you hit it, you're pinning it straight over the bars. But like if a newbie commits to any sort of speed on the downhill and then encounters an obstacle like that, they don't have that ability to jump in their skill set or to emergency break in their skill set or to swerve really fast in their skill set.
>> So yeah, I think that's just bad consequences. So it's yeah, I think course selection is really good advice for somebody just getting into gravel because also gravel is not what you see on YouTube. If you live in Europe, gravel isn't your impression of gravel.
Like you probably think gravel's unbound. It's this beautiful rolling prairie. >> Exactly.
We're all kumbaya. >> Yeah. Yeah.
Yeah. I mean for instance if you compare like I mean I think that's the beauty of gravel as well, right? like that you actually and I think that's part of being a very good professional gravel racer that you actually put time into looking into those courses and making the good and right um selection of your equipment because the courses are so different.
If you for instance go to UCI Gravel World Series race in Austria the Verti Gravel race that's basically a strata bianca/road race. Um, I think, um, honestly, uh, if it wasn't for one section through the forest, I think an aero road with like 35 mm, um, tires could be the best choice there. So, um, and that race, I would say I would recommend it to everyone and it's a race that everyone can do.
Um, because you could technically just go the downhills a little bit slower, right? Whereas, as you correctly said, at Santal, there's maybe some of the descents where I would say it's not about, you know, necessarily the speed you do it at, but it's about even getting down the downhill like, you know, now we make it sound so scary. It's a really beautiful race.
>> No, it's like they're actually some of the nicest days I've had on the bike. And Santa in particular, it's like it's stunning and you can roll to San Gregory, which is like 5k from Jeron. >> Exactly.
It's really remote >> and you're coming back to Jonah for plenty of cool restaurants and stuff in the evening. So, it is really cool. One thing that cracks me a little bit on tire selection is and I know your Continental tires you're running, >> but it's like I would level this criticism on all the brands except Victoria.
>> Mhm. >> The tires the names of them are so confusing. Nobody knows which tires have the most grip and the least grip.
Victoria moved to and I have no affiliation with Vtoria. Vtori moved to a system where they just called their tires like T20, 30, 40, 50, 60, 70, 80. The higher number represents more grip.
I was like, this makes so much sense. Why have we got all these like schwalby G Pro Race one? It's like what?
Like, what terrain do I use these for? As a consumer, it's overwhelming. And you're relying on looking at the what the pros are doing.
not always the best choice because you've much better bike handling than me. So for me to use the same tires as you like you're happy to drift through corners and do all this sort of stuff that I'm not happy with or we then rely on like the clerk in the bike store to be educated enough to teach us about it which just a lot of the time they aren't. I I couldn't agree more and actually um that's been at least I can share now like what Continental is is trying to do on it because they they had a conversation with me about this because yes it's it's totally true and for instance Continental really acknowledged that they want to you know um step up in the gravel game.
So actually what they have been doing now is they are trying to provide this little chart on on the boxes where basically there's a level system level one two three and that goes like to for one the compound so how grippy the compound is is if it's is it like a race compound then it's like one level one or is it full trail like really like trail compound then it's level three and then they do the same with the casing like how thick is the casing. Is this a race casing or is this a trail casing? So they they are trying to use this like level system.
So then you can actually even even um select exactly the tire to your needs. So now actually in in Conte you really have this modular system where you can even match like okay maybe uh this is a course for instance funnily enough I have the experience here in Jona you do not um have a lot of side cuts. Um, so the the stones, there are stones here, but they are not as sharp as like for instance uh Unbound.
So I think for instance, if you would tell me, "Hey, Rosa, I'm looking for a new tire. Can you recommend me one?" And you tell me, "Hey, I think uh I I would like to actually go really fast on the downers, but I don't have that much skill yet.
" Um, so I maybe it would be like, "Okay, then I would recommend you a tire with a little bit more grip. So, a little maybe slower rolling compound, but I would tell you you're still fine with the race casing because I don't think you will necessarily puncture. So, you can still run a lighter tire from from a weight perspective.
>> Do you think tire choice, tire pressure, which seems to dominate so much of the buildup to these races in conversations, is as important as everyone says, is does it merit that much debate and discussion? actually um tire pressure me matters a lot. Um on that note, I did do an experiment with the University of Cologne together with uh with Continental where I was riding at different tire pressures against an obstacle and we were looking at braking forces.
So basically um how much um speed I was losing while hitting the obstacle depending on the tire pressure. So I was selecting three sorts of tire pressures. One's my race pressure that I would usually use, one pressure that was significantly lower, and one that was significantly higher.
And what we could see um >> so what's like race pressure roughly like 24 >> depends on the tire width. Um and um also on the wheel um because it depends also again on like the internal rim um width of of of the wheel. So, I'm using Zip um zip wheels and I can really recommend, but there's multiple great um great um companies that um that have these uh tire pressure guides now.
So, I think uh if you're new to gravel cycling, I would really recommend you to look at the pressure uh guide online or from Silkup. They have one as well. Um >> that one always bugs out on me.
>> Yeah, it does. >> Yeah. Well, it might be my rails or whatever, but the ShraMM one I found very good.
I that's my go-to one. >> And I think honestly um plus minus one PSI and you're at a pretty good pressure, I would say. And then I wouldn't stress too much.
But some people, especially those those coming over from road, they have more this mentality of higher is better. And I couldn't agree less. Um because um if you do ride like um especially these mountain bike tires with way too high a pressure, they will feel very weird.
>> So what was the result of that breaking force experiment? Oh, that was actually like uh crazy in in the sense of um so you know how there's this trend now and I'm actually yeah following this trend often too that that I'm actually going for a wider tire. But um interestingly enough um choosing a lower pressure over a higher volume has more significant effect in reducing braking forces.
So rather go with a smaller uh tire but a little bit lower pressure to reduce those braking forces. So let's say um if you would run a 40 mm tire, you should rather go 2 psi down um then size up to a 45 at the same pressure. >> But that being said, um you always have to look at the courses.
And I think especially if you look for instance at Jirona gravel um the type of punctures you get here most um are pinch flats. So what is the issue with pinch flats mostly too low volume. So there again we come back to the debate on like actually um sometimes when people look at like okay what kind of like tire is she running I would agree that especially at my weight um in season I'm a sub 60 kilo rider um a 45 mm tire often often times is is is good enough but I'm sizing up to a 50 or even a 22 so which is a 55 mm tire sometimes because I want to avoid these pinch flats at all cost because I'm also going downhill quite fast.
So the risk of me, you know, pinch flatting maybe is a bit higher than for someone that that would go at a bit more moderate pace. There's something strange happening in endurance sports on cycling right now. Nobody's talking about Nomio, but everybody seems to be using it.
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com. >> I think 45 is a nice tire for most courses. Like if I could only have one tire, I'd buy a 45.
I think actually, especially with the current um dimensions of grav gravel bikes, that's a super fair statement. Um I do think and when I'm talking like to to tire manufacturers or like other Grabbit pros, I think in the long run like uh Sema Slick 50 will be the go-to. Um >> yeah.
So here's my hot take on this. You're sponsor ShraMM. You're riding ShraMM as well.
>> Yes. >> Yeah. So ShraMM are help us on the podcast as well.
The ShraMM fork is coming next year. I think we're going to see a trend running the fork and moving back to narrower. That is yeah, that is a debate I've been having like with a lot of people.
Um I am so curious to see what's going to happen. Uh due to two reasons. I think there's courses like the rift where I couldn't agree more with you where I think that uh like a suspension fork will be so helpful.
Um, but then again, especially when it comes to racing, um, even in the gravel uh, fields, weight does matter. And the the fork does add around 900 g, um, to to the bike build. >> Yeah.
But that's not net though because you're going to go probably with a narrower tire which is going to be lighter. [snorts] >> Depends because if you choose um, actually higher volume Exactly. tire, you can go with a lower a lower casing.
>> But I think you do have an arrow advantage as well with going with an arrow tire. >> Yeah. And that is that is something that I find super interesting and um actually I can't reveal tire names now, but there are some it depends so much on the tire shape and like how the tire is built.
So there are are some 45 mm tires. See my slicks from certain brands that are slower than a 20 or 22 uh tire because it depends on on the pattern a lot >> and what the rim >> the thing is the actual answer is never easy. Like I remember chatting with Dan Bingham on this and he's like >> even that statement I don't want to put words into his mouth but like taking some of the context from that conversation and like putting it into this one.
He's like, it's so much leaning towards the system now. And the system's like the totality of how air flow changes based on the rider, the wheel, the tire, all the interactions together matter so much. >> Yeah.
>> But why I think the fork is going to make a big difference unbound in races like this in particular where we're seeing the average speeds going up like 40k an hour in the men's race, you know. Crazy. >> Yeah.
Nuts. Like but 36 37 in the women's race as well. like it's still super fast >> at those speeds.
You're in the wheel. In the wheel and gravel, for anyone that's ever been in the wheel and gravel, it's a leap of faith. It's like no one's calling holes because there's just holes everywhere.
So, if you hit a hole on a 45 versus a 2.0 tire, there's a much greater chance of puncturing. And you're like, forget about marginal gains.
If you puncture, you're stopping for 60 seconds to three minutes. The suspension fork I think really reduces that risk of a flat the boom flat in the wheel. So yeah, like there's still a bit of earth in Unbound.
So there's a small weight penalty, but I don't know. I think it more than offsets it. >> Yeah.
No, I mean um for sure for a race like Unbound that is a really rolling terrain, um I could definitely see these kind of innovations. Then again, I mean, we were like, now we're getting really nerdy, but like again, the fork, um, what kind of aerop penalty will the actual fork have, right? So, um, >> but if the main application's in the wheel, that's not as important.
>> Yeah. Yeah, that's true. That's true.
So, >> unless you're going like solo break or like your rift type, you might think twice about that. >> Exactly. So, so honestly, like I think um you you can see that some people are choosing their setup depending on their race strategy, right?
And I think it's it's not like a bad idea. Um, so for sure that those are considerations, but I mean then then the entire topic of I I don't know if if you open that box with with maybe some of the Xio Exit riders you've been talking with with like 32 in. Um, so that could also be an innovation that we could be looking at.
Um, so yeah, whether it's fork, whether it's the 32in uh wheels, whether it's like going for 22 mountain bike tires, um, yeah, it's I think that's also the beauty of of gravel, it opens so many options. And I think because the UCI doesn't regulate it as much yet or there is enough like strong really renowned serieses and events um that go beyond the UCI events. We have this beauty of like really being a bit like explorative and crazy and stuff in possibility.
>> Exactly. a lot of innovation which I think makes it uh very cool to follow and um also allows people with crazy setups uh at the at the start line and to get recognition whereas of course for sure like on on the road side things are a bit more traditional if I remember back like I think the first race I did with the road team um I think I I immediately said put put a 30 mm tire on my wheels or something because I think that's the like sweet spot for me of like, you know, grip, being able to go really fast downhill, but, you know, still having like, you know, nice and narrow tires. And they they were like, "But we used to always use uh 28.
" So, um >> I started racing on 21s and I used 19 in a TT. >> Yeah. Yeah.
Exactly. >> 140 PSI. >> How did you do it?
How did your like arms and like body survive this? You know, we were so out of touch with I would often say to my director like I feel like I can go around corner way better in training and I'd never put my So maybe I put put 120 PSI into my tires in training like at the beginning of the month and then never pumped them again. I like I feel like I can corner so much better in training cuz I was like it had drifted to 60 PSI and then I get into the race and it be like 140 and you're like bouncing around the corner.
You're like, "Of no grip." And it's like, "Oh, you just you got it." And if someone punctured it, it was like >> drawing a grenade.
It was like [snorts] >> like explode. It was terrifying. >> Yeah.
Yeah. And it's like crazy to me. I recently heard that like I think in 1926, like for instance, the total of France was like uh I don't want to say like above 6,000 kilometers, they were like doing stages of like up to 500 kilometers a day.
And I'm just like thinking on that equipment, we we we all like a bunch of like uh like sensitive sies right now. Like we're like give us wider tires. Like uh this hurts.
>> Sometimes they do like a 3 400 km stage in the morning, stop for lunch, and then do a 300 km stage in the evening. [laughter and gasps] >> That is so wild. Like to imagine now that you would like do that on this equipment, still recover and get up the next day.
Uh yeah. and and race again. Um which uh yeah, which is crazy.
But on the other hand side, I mean um I think it's cool that there's so much innovation, right? Um it really, you know, motivates brands and racers alike to to really push the frontier um of of what's possible. And I think as also like for a mass participation sport, which is I think one of the really beautiful things in gravel racing um that you you have this like close uh connection to people that do it just as like a hobby um that uh it's interesting for them to follow because you never know what people are going to turn up to with it.
>> I'm I'm building like a Jerona gravel bike at the moment. So Parley sponsored podcast. So I'm going like a slacker geometry on the frame.
It's good >> fork. >> Yeah, >> the ShraMM fork. >> Sick.
>> Shramm dropper post and the wider tires. >> Nice. Nice one.
Nice one. Yeah. And then you can directly take that uh that bike to the rift as well.
I think that's going to be a good bike. >> Well, rift I've seen a few people rift on mountain bikes and I was like >> at the start I was like, "Oh, what are like 100k later I'm like, whoa, you're not they know. >> They know.
They've been here before." Yeah. Yeah.
>> Your back and your arms. You know what? Like I love the rift cuz it feels like out of this world.
Like if someone hasn't done it, it's worth experiencing. Like >> I really agree. >> It's like you're almost going along thinking I could see dinosaurs here.
Like >> I thought I seen a pterodactyl at one point. >> But it's not easy on the body. Like it's not that enjoyable in the moment.
>> Yeah. >> Like maybe you're going a lot faster than most people. So you're kind of >> like you're not hitting the bumps like it's like riding cobbles.
I want to say enjoyable, but they're less horrific the faster you go. When you're just kind of slogging along, it's like >> Yeah, >> it's a tough course. >> It's true.
But the nice thing with Iceland is that the uh like the next day you can visit one of those hot steam baths, you know, so >> Yeah, exactly. Or like some of the natural ones um that are open that they are really nice, too. Um, so I think um then you can recover again.
>> Just bring the black card as Jay-Z say. No limit on the black card. It is expensive in Iceland.
>> That is true. Yeah. But I must say I lived the past like until uh [snorts] yeah until like half year or a year ago I lived in Copenhagen.
So I know. >> Oh nice. Nice.
What's your biggest target for next year? [sighs and gasps] >> Um there's many targets. Um I mean for sure um on on the gravel side um I think uh two or three really big targets.
Um firstly um doing really well um in the lifetime Grand Prix which I committed to to congratulations. >> Thank you. Um, and then of course, I mean, I wouldn't lie if I wouldn't say that I uh uh I hope to kind of like uh double up on Unbound um next year.
And then um of course, >> does it have less importance because you won it already? >> It doesn't have less importance. Um, I think the race is growing each year and it's getting more professional and more professional every year and it is considered this like next to the UCI World Championships.
It's like considered the main event of the year and then of course if you're a competitive person you you want to perform at the main event. So >> you fought last year. >> Yes.
Yes. You >> had a pretty good run at Unbound. >> Yeah.
Yeah. I mean, I did take a wrong turn at the finish, so I don't know like how good that was, but um yeah. Um yeah.
Um so yeah, for sure Unbound and then uh yeah, two two really big things um are for sure actually I think I can clearly say it. My number one goal is the World Championships in Australia. It's a very uh hilly course which suits me quite a lot.
Um, and from what I heard, it will also be quite technical for like a UCI gravel world championship. So, yeah, that's for sure my clear target. Um, and then just for my own, you know, mental health and revenge, I also want to perform well at the European Championships.
Um, which will take place in Belgium uh at the end of August. Um, yeah. And then on the roadside um I hope to be able to be part of um some of the naliest um classics.
So Stratus for sure super high. >> Busy calendar. >> Yeah.
Um >> like flying to the States for Lifetime Grand Prix and doing a women's world tour calendar is like it's no joke. >> Yeah. Yeah, for sure.
But I really do enjoy it. like um I I really like to keep busy and I actually could see this year in the periods where I was most busy with like most races I performed best. So [snorts] actually like right off Unbound I had like maybe a one or two week break but then I did like this block of uh to the Swiss German road nationals, two UCI events uh or three UCI events and the Rift and I think um yeah I performed well really well at each individual event and then I did the same thing again in September with other races or August and um yeah as long as I have the structure of like a four to six week block of like really high intensity and then uh some weeks where I can really go back like kind of like you know lock yourself uh in this like training environment in Endora and like you know just train then it works quite well.
>> Rosa, thanks for entertaining us last year. I'm looking forward to seeing what this year holds. >> Thank you so much.
Mhm. >> For chum.