I've got a really special guest today. It is Mr. Ed Clansancy.
He is a threetime Olympic gold medalist, Rio, London, Beijing. He's also a bronze medal in his home games in London as well. We start out this conversation and we talk about all the way back when when he moved into that house.
Mark Cavendish, Grant Thomas, him, Matt Braier, how did they build what they've built? What happened in those early years to create these bohemoths in the cycling world? What were the habits?
What were the values that were instilled? Some of this stuff absolutely blew my mind. It's a privilege to sit down with one of GB's most decorated ever Olympic track cyclists.
It's Mr. Ed Clancy. Ed, welcome to the Roadman Cycling Podcast.
>> Legend. Thanks for having me, Anthony. Looking forward to it, mate.
>> Great to have you. Great to chat some [ __ ] before we even started as well. Yeah, absolutely.
I feel like we'd uh could have made us a short good podcast already. >> Take me back to the the very start. A lot of your accomplishments have been well documented in the full media glare and we'll get on to, you know, some of the highlights of an amazing career.
But when you started all the way back, like was it was it the team house in Manchester? Who was the lads around you? You know, you had Cavendish, Grant Thomas, like you're just a bunch of kids.
Did you have any obviously you're dreamers as kids, but did any of you guys ever dream the extent of what reality would become? >> Um, you know what I think we all hoped and you're right, we were all dreamers. And I mean there was something about something about that group you know there was only six of us on this first year that was inducted into this academy right and this >> so there was get Thomas Mark Cavendish myself Matt Braier Tom White and Bruce Edgar now it's potentially only Bruce Edgar and Tom White that you wouldn't have heard of there that didn't make it in inverted commas I've got to say you know they most certainly made it in other ways in life Now we had this guy called Rod Ellingworth, right?
and he was totally unheard of right then and uh you know he was our coach uh you know for the cyclist enthusiasts you'll know Rod Elling as a guy that went on to sort of be the performance director in Inos for a few years and you know he's a big hitter in the world of cycling these days but back then you know he was younger than I am now he was sort of out of um you know in his own words a relatively mediocre sort of cycling career I believe Rod went to Braillesford he was the performance was director at the time pitched in this idea and said if you give us a couple hundred grand, I want to get the best juniors. he sort of identified this gap between like um the juniors that were winning world championships and the elite squad and like how many of them failed to sort of progress to the Olympic team and he wanted to plug that middle ground and yeah he found a bunch of dreamers and um yeah I mean think back to how we were and I know what we thought about life and yeah how we conducted ourselves you know in good and bad ways but I mean man alive Rod was the best mentor we could have ever had. And I think it's no coincidence that I mean out of that group of six, I think I was the third most successful really >> with a with some Olympic gold medals in your pocket like >> Yeah, I mean I know I did all right.
I got three Olympic golds, a bronze, five or six world championships and you know a good domestic road career and you know I mean all that pales into insignificance alongside Garant and Cav and um >> Brammy or six national titles or maybe even more. or he'll he'll >> excuse me for that. I think I got it wrong.
I think he actually has more than six if you count TT and road. >> Yeah. Yeah.
He's an underrated rider was Matt and um yeah I mean massively influential part of that academy group when you think back he was he was in my memory at least it was him and Cav like the alphas of the group and yeah Matt was very much a leader like a born leader I thought and yeah it's no coincidence he's still in British cycling now and he's still heading up their academy funnily enough. So um certain life. >> Yeah.
But I I think the interesting thing to me is that, you know, times have changed. I'll give, you know, I'll give it that. But Rod never really did aerodynamics.
He didn't do sports science. He didn't do physiology. There was nothing about him in that regard that made the group successful.
He was just big on, I guess, like values and principles, if that makes sense. So, you know, really expand on that a little bit. What sort of values and principles?
>> Yeah, I mean, he literally sat us down around the table and got us to write down our team values. So, it's like turn up on time. Uh, dress appropriately, be respectful to the staff, make sure the house is clean before you go to bed.
And, you know, he made us write our own uh punishments is probably the right word. You know, if we didn't Yeah. So we had like a a list of values and I think he even made us like print it out and we stuck it on our bedroom walls and then alongside it we had like a list of punishments that sort of held us accountable to our own values.
Hence you've probably read a few stories about us cleaning cars in the car park and in the drrome and you know having sort of punishment track sessions where we endlessly riding around the top of the drone for 3 hours straight with no water and so on and um yeah. Yeah. I mean all of that stuff we wrote ourselves.
So um yeah it was good and you know I think you know in any team in any walk of life just adhering to like good solid values is it's the foundation on which success can be built and yeah I think that served us well over the years. >> Yeah because if you think about now buzzwords are around corporate culture and building this atmosphere in teams but do you think it starts much earlier than that? Like it's the classic nature versus nurture and we get to look at it from a really young age here from you guys at 17 years old where you start did you come with these values or did Rod instill these values into you guys?
Um I good question. I mean I essentially work in um I got this active travel commissioner job today and I won't bore you with the long and short of it all but it's it's really a behavior change project. Right.
So you're looking at how can you get people to change the sort of like daily routines and daily habits to integrate a bit of activity and so on. Right now there's loads and loads of research and evidence to show that you know if you get kids in their formative years you know in sort of like the first seven 8 n years of life that's where their interest their belief even like their moral compass is um almost hardwired in these formative years right so I I reckon almost all of us um you know me cav gi we we were we had a little conversation before like um out the recording about like you know how how cycling can sort of find a certain type of character but we all had like a bit of an obsessive interest in what we were doing right and that probably came from our very much our formative years but to answer your question yeah I I think Rod instilled those values in us I don't think we came as um people that would naturally turn up on time people that would naturally um you know understand the principles of a high performing team. This idea of synergy and collaboration and honesty.
Rod was big on feedback and he was big on honesty. Like you know if Rod ever caught us out for um you know if we sort of filled in our training diary and we said we were happy with how it went, but he knew we weren't. if he ever caught us out for um you know he he'd openly say like lads if you go out on the piss and you turn up hung over for your ride the next day that's fine but he wants to know about it be honest and um yeah I mean talking about high performance teams like you just said there in my opinion every high performing team will have some sort of system or mechanism for welcoming the truth and um yeah I think Rod always believed that really strongly.
>> It's so different to outside perception of British cycling because outside perception of British cycling is it's wind tunnels, it's marginal gains, it's analyzing data, it's, you know, digital scales weighing food. But this is like real Mr. Miyagi stuff cuz just as you were talking there, I'm struck by that saying of how you do anything is how you do everything.
There's no point in giving the 22y old kid access to, you know, specialists in the wind tunnel who are getting paid 5,000 euro an hour if the guy shows up late. If the guy is not respectful to the staff. >> Yeah.
Honestly, you just remind me like um I don't know what Bra Matt Braier, funnily enough, is um what's going through his head right now. I haven't spoken to him for a couple of months, but if you look at his Instagram page, he literally he's putting up posts that says that he's sort of like giving advice out to youngsters, literally saying before you start worrying about wind tunnels and marginal gains and like you said, weighing out your grams of protein or whatever it is, you've just got to start with some real basics. And I'm not saying you can do cycling in 2025 at the highest level without that.
I'm just saying you'd be smart to start with a foundation of good principles, good values, and that's the foundation of like everything else that you can build on top of that. I think if you can start with a good set of values and principles, you know, basic understanding of what makes a high performing team and then and you have to do it these days, you know, I don't care how talented or strong you are. I mean, times have changed.
we got away with not doing it. But these days, you know, even at junior level, it's um it's an uncomfortable truth. I think that they have to do the marginal games thing.
They have to get in a wind tunnel with a bespoke made skin suit if they want to be a fast track rider or >> yeah, >> you know, whatever it is, a 20 grand s works. It's it's really hard not to. Um, and the standard is higher and uh I said it's an uncomfortable truth and I I think it is.
I mean, and I'm sure I don't know what the solution is. Um, you know, there's been talk about the domestic road racing scene, you know, and um, a huge part of the problem is the cost, you know, if you marry up like the increase in cost of stuff, petrol, hotels, bikes, skin suits, um, being competitive, and you kind of marry that up with the cost of living crisis, you know, the big blip that we all had to go through with Corona virus, it's it's struggling And I'm not I don't know what the solution is. >> Yeah, it's a huge problem for me.
It's the biggest problem facing cycling at the moment. I I done a podcast recently around paranormal and it wasn't just paranormal I was picking on. just the rise of those fashion brands in cycling and cuz for me there was a point and I can't remember when it changed but I know when I was out in France it wasn't the social credibility didn't go to the person who dressed the best who had the newest kit it went to the person with the best legs it went to the person who could take their rain cape off in a crosswind at 60k an hour who knew how to ride an echelon who knew how to descend that was the guy who had the social credibility within the group but at some point I can't exactly put my finger on it that flipped and it went from this idea of if anyone raced out in France heard that expression lame metier like the apprenticeship it went from the idea of become an apprentice and an apprentice starts with humble tools and an apprentice he earns the right to use good tools we went from that to you can buy membership into cycling and I know proponents of it will say oh inclusion is amazing but you can push inclusion so far that it de facto starts to exclude exclude people especially lower socioeconomic groups from it and participation rates Ireland and the UK across races.
I'm not saying this is the only reason but for me it's it's the biggest threat to cycling at the moment. It's the consumer culture of it. >> Oh yeah, absolutely.
And um I'm sort of conflicted because uh you know to me and obviously I'm biased and obviously I grew up with start with what I was going to say earlier like you know in my formative years I just loved bikes and I didn't love you know necessarily the tour of France. I didn't love marginal gains, you know, as a kid and probably like yourself. I just loved fun, freedom, exploration, hanging out with my pals on the mountain bikes.
And then, you know, you kind of get into sport and it becomes like a very aspirational thing. And like I sit here now as a 40-year-old fella on the other side of a professional and inverted commerce career. And like I'm just like a massive kid again.
Like I couldn't care less about like um you know, what's my FTP? What do I weigh? you know what's um how much does my bike weigh?
I just couldn't care less. It's just the same stuff I enjoyed as a kid. And that's fine.
The sport is struggling domestically. It is out of reach for so many people. Like it it really is.
And you know I spend my working life these days as an active travel commissioner which very much looks at movement and sport and physical activity at the total opposite end the spectrum of elite sports. >> Yeah. >> And I've also started work within British cycling uh in the social impact team uh primarily looking after this foundation and you know both of these projects at the opposite end of the spectrum to marginal gains wind tunnels and so on.
But when you spend a bit of time in this world like I have, you realize just how many people like I mean there there's schools, there's I mean there's almost whole like towns and villages I I see that you know half the kids can't afford a spare set of trainers, let alone a bike. >> Yeah. >> Like I'm not talking about a racing bike.
I'm talking about a bike that's been recycled through a local cycling hub. Um I mean >> this just kills me though because we've saw Sorry to cut across here. Uh but we've we've just a disconnect.
You know, there was there's been some great technological advancements like Uber connected dudes who are sitting there with a spare car with people who needed a lift somewhere. Airbnb an empty home that connects someone with someone that needs a home. But it's like I've got just bikes, old bikes, which I'd say now are, you know, [ __ ] group sets like a 10-speed 105 group set, a 9-segra group set.
These are very functional group sets. You can go and win bike races on these group sets and they're sitting in my attic and there's not a mechanism to connect me with someone who needs those. I don't want cash for them.
Take them. Same with cycling kits. Like I spoke to Rebecca Rush.
She's been seventime world champion across a bunch of different sports. 21 year Red Bull athlete. She's just like an outdoor junkie.
When you chat to her, you just she's born to live in a forest and do these crazy adventures. But she's heavily in cycling for the last decade. But she was talking about climbing as well.
And in climbing, it's a badge of honor to use Warren kit. Like if you show up to a climbing weekend with all new kit, people will look at you like you're dangerous. You got to stay away from Ed.
He's got new kit. He's going to take us all down the mountain. The the woress, the raggedness of your kit represents your experience level.
We don't have that in cycling. We kits disposable. Both, you know, both apparel and wheels, bikes, it's all disposable.
>> Yeah. I mean, it's it's it's a nice thought, isn't it? That like, you know, as soon as your racing bike or your mountain bike's got a few battle scars on it that it looks used, you know, but it's not like that, is it?
It's just a culture of like um I don't know, shiny, glossy stuff. And um >> yeah. Yeah.
It's it's all good. I mean, I think a lot about what is the solution? What is the solution to helping juniors make racing accessible?
And you know, there's there's I hear a lot of people saying, "Well, maybe we should standardize frames. Maybe we should standardize wheels, so everyone's got to ride whatever it is, 28 spoked wheels or more, which is fine." But the problem is if we did that, and let's pretend, you know, everyone had to race on a a metal frame with metal forks with 28 spokes in the wheel, people just look for the next thing that they can work on.
They'd be like, "Okay, well, I'm just going to invest all my time and effort and energy in biomechanics." >> Yeah. in wind tunnels, in helmets, in in special socks, and we'll start spending a fortune there and people will.
So, I mean, unless you get to a point like a Japanese Kieran where it's like this is >> I was just thinking of that when you were saying that. >> Yeah. If we standardize everything, you know, helmets, skin suits, overshocks, bikes, um, I mean, I won't bore you with the nerdy detail, but, you know, spent the last couple of years prior to these jobs working the research and innovation team, and this the ridiculous thing is some standardized suits would work better on different body shapes and sizes than others, which gives them a natural advantage, if that makes sense.
>> Yeah. Now, it's um >> there's just no easy answers. And uh >> is it a cultural change is the that's not an easy answer for sure.
That's a very complicated and drawn out answer, but like I see guys on the group ride and they'll drop 4,000 euro on a set of wheels and you're looking at them going mate, you'd just be much better learning how to go around a corner better. >> You would. Yeah.
Yeah. Yeah. Absolutely.
And I think, you know, when when you look at um you know, it's always always been the case, you know, if you look back at the last decades even of the guys that are winning on the track, on the road, it's the guys, you know, back to the earlier conversation that have like good foundations, good values, good principles of high performance at least. And then they do the whole marginal gains thing on top of that. And they can also do bike handling skills.
they can communicate effectively with the DS with the teammates and that's when you see like a whole package come together and um yeah at that point you become unstoppable but yeah it's people would rather and I see this firsthand man they'd literally rather spend four grand on wheels than learn how to break for a corner you know I mean there's I won't name names but I've met some like unbelievably high performance cyclists that don't even know which is the front brake and the back brake they're just like I just pull them together and I'm like I I don't believe it. Yeah. >> But there is something cultural in that when you can buy a destination and remove the process.
But then it's almost is the destination valuable? Like I'm thinking about, sorry, I'm talking quite abstract there. I was just chatting this morning with a friend about the weight loss drug OMIC.
And we're like, okay, so now you can buy being slim in a pill. So, everyone's been striving for whatever that being slim represents, the podium, the six-pack. But if you can buy the way, if you can purchase your way to get straight there, does it still have meaning?
Or is actually having a six-pack, as someone said, is it actually a story of the nights out you didn't have, a story of the pizzas you didn't order? And the process to getting the six-pack is what's valuable. like the discipline to show up at the gym to not eat that food.
That's actually the valuable part of the whole thing and not the destination of it. >> Oh yeah, 100%. like and um hey I'm not the most successful person you've ever spoke to on this podcast but you know um through my own experience and my own opinion you know there was a set of kids that were dreaming about becoming Olympic champions becoming Tour to France winners in the academy days and you know like I said like three out of six of us maybe four out of six of us sort of achieved whatever dreams we had and Um, yeah, take it from me, like it's you kind of realize as a middle-aged bloke looking back on it all, you never wanted a destination.
You just wanted progress. You wanted purpose, meaning, a sense of cohesion in your life. That was was the best bit about it, a journey.
And um, you know, I look at I literally I don't even know where my Olympic medals are right now. I lent them to some um a fellow that I work with called James in British cycling last week and he took them home for a week and showed his kids and it's like you know I mean like it's not like I wouldn't miss him if they never came back but I'm I'm really honestly I just like yeah it was great but you know I appreciate the relationships. I appreciate the journeys.
appreciated um all the battles that I won and lost, but you know, I don't wake up in the morning feeling smug because I've got some, you know, gold medals that are probably worth 200 quid if you melt them down for gold hanging around in the basement somewhere. >> Um I couldn't care less about what money is in my bank account. Like the most meaningful thing to me is like the the Sunday morning I can get out on me electric mountain bike with my pals and take take my brain out for a few hours and just enjoy life.
Yeah. culturally within that house and within that academy on the way up I'm thinking even prebeijing did you guys have a atmosphere where it was we can all win and let me expand on that by that I mean when I chatted to Olaf Buu the triathlon coach he coached at the time Gustaf Eden and Christian Bloomfeld who were number one and number two in the world they're each other's biggest competitors yet they train together every day and as soon as one of them went away and found a breakthrough in a wind tunnel with fueling with stride, they would come back and they would share that breakthrough with his biggest competitor just so they both kept leveling up. And I just walked away from that and I reflected on I thought culturally how difficult that is to create that atmosphere where I'll take my biggest win, my new secret weapon, and I'll share it with my closest rival in order to level up the whole game.
Did you guys inside if you find something or you texted G like oh look I found this gain. >> Yeah. You know what I I 100% I would have done and um you know we did I mean talking about Gite grew up with a fell and did um you know a couple massive Olympics Beijing was the first one where everything really took off.
London obviously a home Olympic games and sort of full bonds through those races that you know you can no other way. Um but yeah so of course we did you know everything you know I found was sort of shared out and you know I did I was spent a lot of time in the wind tunnel you know from the real early days with Chris Borman and you know we were finding things there that got didn't just got shared with the team pursuit or Garine it was you know the wider great Britain cycling team but it was relatively easy for me because I mean um you know when I was riding the Omnium I guess I was kind of the standout rider ahead of 2012 12 Olympics. So, I didn't really have loads of in-house competition for that space.
And obviously, I was often involved in the team pursuit, which is a team event. So, you want to share your knowledge with your teammates. Now, if you ask me, would I share some of that knowledge with the Aussies?
I'd be like, "No, I'd rather like stitch my mouth shut than, you know, dulge any data or evidence we've got that's going to make us faster." So, absolutely not. You know, and I took that information to the grave.
There was a gun point to my head. Um but uh so that probably gives you an idea about how we operated. Yeah.
>> The Grant and Cavendish changed through the years or still the same same people from 17 to it's almost hard to fathom the level of their fame within cycling. Like there's nothing bigger than winning the Tour to France. And if there is anything bigger than winning the Tour of France, it's winning the record number of stages in the Tour of France.
They're two of the world's biggest ever stars. And it's kind of hard to imagine from this part of the world cuz I know even the guys would have raced the junior tour of Ireland and you see the pictures of him and it it's not Barto copy from these far away lands and Pantani where he's this romance around that you kind of feel like oh it's they're one of the boys like yeah I mean so you asked about Cav and Garite there and I'll I'll tell you what I think about both of them. Garine let's start with Cav.
Cav. Now Cav, he was um when we were on that academy, like he was the the one person that really believed his own dreams like you know he would have told you when he was 17 18 years old that he's going to be the best sprinter in the world. And for what it's worth, I think there's probably something in that.
And you know obviously that dream material you know materialized and um I think he did change like have changed and um we kind of always knew it was going to happen and you know he had funny manbags and fancy cars and yeah I mean I think the truth is like you know he he changed but I think the best thing and I mean this in like um you know a really genuine way is that he had a period of time that we all saw where he struggled, Right. And that um for for Cav as a person I think did him like the world of good and he's I remember speaking to him once and you know sat on my sofa up there upstairs um after he sort of like he was going through starting to go through these sort of tough times and um I just kind of feel like it you know he was always fire he was always passionate he was always up and down you know he he was always very obsessed is with you're obsessed with things and he still does and um but I think that was the best thing that happened for him going through a few tough times and I remember him telling me one day he sold all his cars and he drives around in this van now and you know he just has he wears a tracksuit most of the time and yeah I love Cav and he's I feel like he's gone full circle he's back to whoever he he started as as a 17year-old >> and that's the story arc that we're most attracted to isn't it like no one loves the person who comes from nothing and becomes allconquering it's like what Tad is missing at the moment It's the bit of had it all, lost it, came back and won again. Cav had that perfect story arc that we're just all so attracted to.
>> Yeah, he did. Yeah. And yeah, like I said, as a personality, he's sort of gone full circle as well, I think.
And he's just he's the same person he was when he was 17, 18 that I knew back then now. And uh yeah, and Gite I honestly don't think he's changed one iota. I mean, I went to I saw I flew out to to see him for a weekend in Monaco last year and um you know, he was despite I'm sure all the money he's got in the bank and things like that, he can pretty much wear what he wants, travel how he wants, drive what he wants.
You know, he's going around Monaco in like some [ __ ] old jeans and a t-shirt on this moped and he just doesn't care. You know what I mean? He just hasn't changed a bit.
He's a great guy. well recognized, you know, as a even out there, there was every British tourist was like, "You get Thomas and you know, taking a picture." But that aside, it was just like the old days.
Yeah. >> Do you have any regret about the direction that you went? The guys obviously at some point flicks the switch and went road.
You stayed in lane on track. You could argue maybe track representing the country has more prestige. Undoubtedly, road has more upside.
financially. >> Um I think you know during my career obviously like you know when you're young in your 20s and 30s you kind of you know what what you're really looking for and um of course you want to represent so you know queen and country but obviously like every athlete you have this sort of innate desire for uh fame, fortune, simple pleasures maybe. Do you know what I mean?
And um of course you look across or you look over your shoulder and be like a bloody hell yeah so and so's making seven figures now and you're like a be nice and you kind of the truth is I I didn't have the potential to be part of that you know I think on the road I had potential to be good enough to carry bottles for somebody that was making seven figures >> or potentially lead out some of the one of the fastest men of all time. >> Yeah. And I mean on the plus side um you know I I was making good money domestically.
You know when you're approaching your home Olympics and on the back end of your home Olympics there's money to be made off you know public speaking commercial partnerships and things like that and you wouldn't have had access to that. >> Yeah. >> So financially I don't really feel like I missed out on my potential.
And um I was watching Jimmy Carr the other day and somebody heckled him from the audience and said, "Are you rich?" To which Jimmy Carr replied, "Well, how do you define rich?" Because in my head, you're rich if how much money you earn doesn't change what you do.
And I guess from that point of view, you know, I still work today, but you know, I kind of do how I want. >> Yeah, that's brilliant answer. the amount of money that like I pull in every month change what I do.
No, I mean, you know, I started with pretty humble beginnings, you know, as a broken home from Barnsley and um you know, I've got the potential to afford nice things and within reason. I can travel in different ways these days and uh you know, I still choose to fly on easy jet and Ryan. I'll shop at little at Aldi in Fer, you know, I get my smart clothes from M ands and everything else I just get from a charity shop.
I drive a van. I use public transport. I just don't care, you know.
It's not Yeah. Those things don't interest me. Yeah.
>> There's a quiet confidence that though. That's in some ways the ultimate flex. >> Yeah.
Yeah. I mean, it's a good quote, isn't it? You know, if you're looking at your Rolex to see when your lunch break starts, it's not a flex.
Yeah. I think I think the real luxuries in life are sort of sleeping well, being at ease, having the ability to move as slow or as fast in life as you want. And yeah, to me that's the real luxury that and health, you know what I mean?
You know, when you get to my age, you start seeing people lose that. And uh yeah, then I think you quickly realize what's, you know, what really matters. >> Yeah, Irish cycling lost one of their legends there last week.
H glad I would have come up. Craig Sweetman uh 52 years old I think as a young lad Toby just won a stage at the junior tour of Ireland fit still cat one fitness and literally just went to bed didn't wake up the next day and it just underscores to me like like we're not here for a long time and you just don't know when your ticket's going to be punched. >> No, really.
And uh I I mean I I know these these guys obviously aren't in my circle, but I kind of feel like I grew up with like Hulk Hogan was like, you know, a young adult when I was a kid and Oussie Osborne was a young adult when I were a kid. And I'm like, what the hell? Like both these guys are gone last week and um >> still a a couple of decades ahead of me, but that is pretty much it.
Just a couple of decades ahead. And I'm like, wow, that's probably going to go a lot quicker than the previous two decades. So yeah, we better start living life and being happy.
>> Seen a great meme there. Hulk Hogan went to the gym six days a week for 40 years, dies at 72. Also, took hard drugs six days a week for 40 years, lives till 76.
>> Yeah. Yeah. I mean, there's uh I'm sure genetics plays a part in these things, but uh yeah, RIP to both of them.
And uh I'd say it was Oussie's funeral yesterday and yeah, it was great to see the turnout that that showed up because he was um he was one in a million, wasn't he? >> There was nothing more badass. I remember that kind of early, you know, 20s kind of formula where you're kind of still a little unsure what's cool and going to training camps over in the Alps and there was nothing more badass than just sticking Aussie on.
It was just such a safe choice. It's like it gave you credibility straight away. >> Yeah.
every like everyone I sort of get targeted now with like Oussie Osborne memes and clips on Instagram and um yeah there was definitely a good a lot of good in Aussie like I was watching him like with his walking stick going around his garden looking for this cat like swearing at this cat >> I got that one as well brilliant >> yeah eventually he finds the thing and he picks it up and he was like I didn't want it to be get taken out by coyotes or something I was like oh bless him might be mental but um yeah he had a good >> he was great entertainment. Take me back for a second to I suppose when I look at your career on paper and easy for me to do I look at one huge inflection point 2008 Beijing Olympics I think you would have been 23 if my math's right on it you I think I read somewhere you later said ignorance was bliss around that that you almost didn't know what you didn't know what what did you mean by that and how how pivotal was that that 20 2008 Yeah, I mean uh it's interesting the the the truth is I mean the story of the Great Britain the rise of the Great Britain cycling team is way bigger than my personal story and you know again back to when I was a kid. remember those guy that probably somewhat inspired me to take up cycling called Chris Borman.
Won a gold medal in 2000. Sorry. Um was it in 1990 92 Barcel?
>> Yeah. Won a gold medal Barcelona 92. And then eight years later there was Jason Quy won a gold medal in the year 2000.
And then like things started picking up in 2004 and in Beijing we pretty much won everything. And I think, you know, not just me, but like so many people in that Beijing team just kind of went there thinking like, right, you know, we kind of think we can do well. We think we can win this, but are we really going to win everything?
And um yeah, I mean, it turns out we pretty much did. And um I wouldn't say we'd have gone there and got a bronze medal and been happy, but I don't know. I just kind of felt like if we go there and we get a bronze, that'd be great.
If we get silver, even better. If we got we get a gold, that'd be mint. And um what I meant by ignorance is bliss is that I don't know.
I there was no pressure. There was no expectation. There was no I didn't feel any weight of the world on my shoulders.
Do you know what I mean? I didn't realize what we were about to do. I didn't realize what we were about to become, you know, as we approached not just me and us as a team pursuit, but I didn't realize what the Great Britain cycling team was going to become on the way to 2012.
And we were in a little ignorant bubble of bliss that just kind of like walted on with no attention, completely unnoticed. And um yeah, and after 2008, things changed. >> Road man, whether you're a weekend warrior or a world tour rider, the right tools can make all the difference.
Enter 4's precision 3 plus power meter. The latest innovation from 4i, designed to help you reach peak performance. The Precision 3 Plus power meter is a compact yet powerful unit.
It weighs just 9 g and it's packed with features that set it apart, including integration with Apple's Fine Mind network, giving you the piece of mind by letting you track your power meter wherever it is. Plus, you've got up to 800 hours of battery life. We all know that accuracy is key and 4 Eyes delivers a groundbreaking plus or minus 1% accuracy thanks to their unique 3D strain gauge technology.
For those seeking even more data, the Precision 3+ Pro Power meter offers dualsided power meter metrics, giving you detailed insights into pedaling efficiency, torque effectiveness, and left right balance. For Eyes offers versatile product options to suit your needs. Choose from ride ready parameters with pre-installed units on Shimano cranks or up for factoryinstalled parameter where you send in your crank set for a custom installation.
Ready to elevate your cycling game? Trust for eyes precision 3+ parameter. Precision performance and peace of mind allin one.
Learn more by visiting fori iiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiii.com. That's fori Iiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiii ii ii ii ii ii ii ii ii ii i i iii.
com. I'm going to put that in the description down below. Look, you could look at it almost as an inflection point, not just in your story or GB's story, but in the story of cycling.
It really marked the onset of the chase for marginal gains. Like I remember chatting to a friend of mine who's riding for Team Sky back in 2012, Michael Barry, and he was telling me when Sky started rocking up to races with speed suits on, they literally get laughed at by German and Dutch lads on the start line. That started in 2008 where you guys started looking for answers to questions that nobody else was asking.
>> Yeah, absolutely. I mean, I tell you what, I think as early as 2006, I remember being in a wind tunnel with Chris Borman. Um, funny enough, the same guy I was sat down with face to face yesterday in Sheffield talking about active travel.
Now, um, Chris Borman back then was heading up our research and innovation team. Now, you know, those that are my age will just about remember Chris Borman as being the guy that turned up with the Lotus Superbike to sort of like, you know, all those years back, you know, really pushed the envelope with aerodynamics and what was possible. and he was leading and he never in my opinion he never really got the um the praise he deserved for everything we've achieved in 2008 2012 onwards um you know there's a lot understandably Braillesford a lot of talk about Dave Braillesford um but yeah Chris led that research and innovation piece and there was a couple of like breakthrough moments as as early as 2006 where I went into a wind tunnel.
Uh, put on a skin suit that had like pretty um basic in today's terms like arowot trips as we call them. >> Way from the vortex speed suits. >> Yeah.
Yeah. Long long way from the what we currently have, you know. We literally had like two sort of like stripes um down either arm, you know, of quite a prominent sort of like one or two millimeter sort of ridge.
And that was the start of trips. Um, but what that meant in empirical terms was about 4 and a half%. Now, yeah.
Now, if a lot of your listeners will be cyclists and you're a cyclist yourself, and if somebody said, "Right, today you know, your FTP is not going to be 385 watts, it's going to be 400 watt, you know, give or take 4%." Like at that point you'd be like, "Yeah, what's the catch?" Do you know what I mean?
That was a hell of a step. And that's just the skin suit. When we stuck on a decent helmet, the over socks, you know, it's no wonder we moved the game on.
And that's really where it started. Um and you know people talk about mar and it is marginal gains is like it's an engineering project in mechanical terms but really and I bet Dan Binger would tell you the same like the whole thing about marginal gains is it's about a mindset. It's about having a curiosity having a willingness to learn to try different stuff.
Do you know what I mean? To to interpret the rules in a different way if you like. That's literally what F1 is built on.
engineers interpreting the rules in different ways and um yeah I think we kicked off that whole marginal gains thing in 2008. People accuse us of doping because we won by so much. The funny thing is now that like you know every team in the top 15 would go way quicker than we went in Beijing.
And um we were just ahead of the game aerodynamically and uh yeah they're still doing a good job like Great Britain cycling team are still trying hard to stay ahead of that learning curve but it it's getting harder and harder for him. >> What underscores how far the track stuff has come the individual pursuit times now are as fast as the team pursuit like what's Jonathan Milan's gone sub four minutes for 4K. >> Yeah.
All right. as juniors talking about that initial uh junior team. So me, Cav, Garia, I remember we did a flying kilo.
So we got to the top of the track, built up as much speed as we could, dropped into the the black line at the bottom and we did one kilometer in one uh under one minute. So basically we were on four minute pace, right, for a team pursuit. And we got off the track and we were like, "Wow, we can't believe how fast we were going there.
" Like we were talking about the geforce in the banking was unbelievable. We talked about having a speed wobble down the straights and things >> and um yeah, now they do that in an individual pursuit from a stand and start >> for 4K. It's >> for someone who hasn't ridden track, there's not many feelings in cycling as fun as being on top of the track and dropping in for a flying effort.
It's that like >> it's just you feel like a child. >> You do. Yeah, you do.
I mean, the track racing is a beautiful thing. I know I'm biased, but it it's so accessible as well. Like, you know, if you're a leisure cyclist, if you're a commuter, you know, if you do a little bit of whatever it is, basic racing, like, you know, you can turn up to a bell drum, you can hire a bike and a helmet and shoes and everything for like 20 quid.
I'm like, just give it a go. I'm not saying you've got to buy yourself a seven grand bike and go racing track league, whatever. Just it's worth a try because when you're turning off the top, it is like nothing else.
Yeah. >> I've actually got a great story about that. So, I came back for the runup to Tokyo on the tandem and brilliant fun if you haven't ridden a tandem because it just goes faster.
It's so much fun riding the tandem. But I'm circling at the top of the drrome with this visually impaired lad, John. He's a gas man.
Didn't play by the rules. Now, this lad and no respect for authority, so we're circling at the top. But it it just kind of hit home to me because I've been on the road for a lot of years at this point.
You know, you're getting bits of experience picking it up off other people and just how new he was. So, we're circling at the top getting ready to drop in for a flying 2k or something and I'm waiting for the other guy as it be normal to finish his efforts down the bottom of the track. So, I'm up there and John shouts at me, "How many laps to go?
" I was like, "We haven't dropped in yet, mate." And at that moment, I knew we were [ __ ] >> If he's given his best effort right now, and we haven't even dropped in. Oh, it wasn't good.
So much fun though. >> I tell you what, like a flying 200 is way harder than people think, isn't it? >> Oh yeah.
>> If you have a proper go at flying 200, you've got massive great gear on that takes some moving and then just getting to the top of the track, building speed is hard work. And really, it is a three and a half lap effort in my head. >> Yeah, there's no lonelier place than coming apart in track racing.
like a pursuit you lock up with you start you just know because you start losing the cadence with four laps to go or something and it's like you just know the splits are going and then if you're in train or something that the manager stops calling the splits you just know this is bad yeah I mean like having these conversations brings back so many memories of like you know the best moments of your life you know like you go it's very exposing is track racing, you know, imagine the home Olympics. There's 100 million people watching on TV. It's the four minutes that's going to potentially change your life and everyone's going to watch you on the best day of your life or the worst day of your life.
And you know, of course, when you get it right and you're stood on top of the podium with three of your best mates, like there's no there's no drug you can take. There's no amount of money you can make that will make you feel like that. I really believe that.
And of course, when you get it wrong, like you said, you know, if you mess up, like you've been on a tandem, I've been in a team pursuit, you don't just let yourself down, you let all your teammates down, you let all the people that have come out to cheer you down. And yeah, it's it's crushing. It's it breaks you and it's um you're so exposed.
>> Did life change after Beijing? Because you the whole like especially British media for anyone who's not British, like we don't get the same media here in Ireland. The British media is intense.
Whether it's on the royal family or it's on sport, for good and bad, it really shines a spotlight on people. >> I'm going to answer that in two different ways. Um in sort of mechanical terms, yes like um you know you start making more money, you start being recognized a bit particularly as the approach to home Olympics comes I think after the home Olympics and um in in the mechanical sense yeah your life does change and it's my whole life's taken a different route thanks to a couple of key moments.
early on, right? Um, but I think this is the biggest misconception is that like like a feeling of success or a feeling of that change isn't at all what you'd think. Does that make sense?
>> Yeah, a little bit. I spoke to Kelly Holmes or Dame Kelly Holmes on this and she almost felt a little bit trapped by the success especially she had she had a complicated relationship with her own sexuality and she was just trying to discover that in the glare of the British media and she felt trapped in an old version of a story she told and didn't have a freedom to retell her new story. the from from my perspective, I feel like I had this idea that you you were going to become upon this thing that was going to like bestow upon you all the wisdom and knowledge and happiness and everything you needed to feel complete and done, right?
But the the reality is that humans are not wired to be happy with things you've achieved in the past. We're just not, right? And um the best way I can describe it which has been described to me by you know psychiatrists, therapists and so on is that like you know physically our bodies have this thing called homeostasis right?
So if me and you go out tonight, we have 12 tights, you know, we'll have a good time, we'll have some uh happy hormones fly around our body and then to super compensate, we'll sleep for 24 hours, you know, we'll feel pretty rough and then your body sort of self-regulates. The mind does exactly the same. So whe this has been well studied in lottery winners, funny enough, you win the lottery and overnight people are dead happy.
They've got everything they ever wanted. They got a big mansion, they got a Bentley, you got a helicopter and so on. And after a period of 6 to 18 months, almost everyone comes back down to the same baseline of happiness that they started at.
Same is true for when a tragic event happens. You know, you lose a loved one, something terrible happens. 6 to 18 months, you have this like mental homeostasis.
You turn back to where it started. And it was just like that for winning the Olympics. And every single time we won an Olympics, I'd give it six to 12 months.
I was like, "Right, well, I'm not really living on a big high anymore. This is just life." You self-regulate.
So, what you do? You think, "Oh, maybe I'd be happy if I won a second one. Maybe I'd be happy if won a third one.
Maybe I'd be happy if I won a fourth one." And then, you know, you just about get to the point where I'm 40 now, and you kind of realize, well, maybe that's not the key. Yeah, it's I see this with outside sport as well with friends who've had big exits from companies and the advice they've given me is you need to be happy to begin because if you're not happy right now, no event is going to change that happiness.
You get the eight figure exit. Amazing. You sit on a beach for four weeks with someone feeding you grapes and then you wake up in the fifth week and you're like, get those grapes away from me.
Like I need to just get back to being a normal person. And then it's like it never happened. >> Yeah.
Yeah. I think um I'm exactly the same. You know, I've done a few corporate bike rides and things and um the amount of business people I've met that um they tell these wild stories about where they've come from and like what they built up and then they sold it and then yeah, it took them only a matter of weeks, maybe a month or two to realize that they were actually more depressed than they'd ever been.
And uh yeah, that's what I love about bikes. think bikes, the the great outdoors, the simple act of putting one foot in front of the other and um experiencing nature, it saves people. I've literally met business people that, you know, would in their words, cycling their life.
I like that. But that's why you need to be and I guess this is a maybe my lesson for anyone junior that's starting that process now. You need to be careful in the process that you don't totally build a moat around yourself and alienate yourself because when you finish the event and you go back to normal life you know you need to have mates you need to have family relationships.
Michael Phelps for me is you know the greatest Olympian of all time statistically. And if you listen to him talking about having suicidal thoughts, it's like he I think his quote was, you know, if you're the most successful Olympian of all time, but you've no one to celebrate it with, is it still success? So to me, like the word focus is interesting now.
It's almost a word that's glamorized in sport, you know, business or anything else. And you know to be successful in sport you have to focus right and people like yeah focus on your sport. But what the word focus really means to me I think 90% of the word focus is saying no.
So if you're focusing on being an Olympian or a professional sports person or a Michael Phelps that means you're saying no to friends families Christmases birthdays funerals weddings social occasions and that's works. It doesn't mean you're a well-rounded person. It makes you very successful at the thing that you're focused on, but in every other aspect of life, you're a failure.
And you know, I think perhaps he like myself had this romantic idea that when you finish a sport, you're kind of going to go back into like, and I've seen this all the time, like people like, "Yeah, I'm just going to finish my career and then we're going to get married. I'm going to settle down and have a family." >> It doesn't work.
>> And you know, I had this idea of like, "Yeah, I'll finish. So, I'm going to spend more time like doing social stuff and reconnecting with my old friends. They've already gone.
You know what I mean? It's It's not like that. It's the world's moved on without you.
>> Hey everybody, let's take a quick break to talk about the bike I'll be riding this season, Reap. I've been lucky enough to ride all the top brands in the world over the past few years. But these Reap bikes, they're not the same.
And I'll tell you why. Reap is the first company I've seen that isn't chasing sales targets and the mass market. They're chasing something very rare, perfection.
Every bike they make, it's crafted in the UK factory. And it's not about slapping a Made in Britain label on a bike from a Chinese factory. It's about control.
From the first sketch to the final build, they're hands-on, ensuring that every detail is dialed in. That's very rare in an outsourced world of mass production. What sets them apart is innovation.
while others pump out the same old designs. Reaps pushing boundaries. They're not following trends.
They're setting trends. Think precision and performance like an F1 car for the road. Absolutely no compromises.
And it shows and you can feel it when you ride the bikes. These bikes are built for riders who demand the best. Whether they're chasing podiums or just want a machine that feels like an extension of your body, a piece of art.
It's not hype, it's substance. ride a Reap for yourself and you're riding something crafted with intent. So, if you're serious about cycling, check them out.
It's reapikes.com. I absolutely love my one and I couldn't recommend it highly enough.
Back to the show. Look, I didn't hit anywhere near the same heights you did. very modest cycling career, but a lot of the same similar and it's even more tragic in some cases because you make some of the same sacrifices, but you don't get any of the same upside.
Like I remember going back after I finished cycling, you know, saying no to all the nights out, all the parties, you know, even if it was doing something social, you'd just show face and you'd leave. And then you finish this pursuit of trying to make it in cycling, whatever that means, make it. But you finish that pursuit and you think you can take these friendships back off the shelf and it's like one mate in particular I remember having a chat with him and he's just like you know he's like honestly we were good mates when we were kids but he's like you just weren't there for me.
He's like you weren't there all the times I needed you and he's like that's what friendship is and I was like had this moment going like he's totally right. I just wasn't a good mate. All I was was focused on one thing.
>> Yeah. Oh mate, I for what it's worth, I think, and this is um a moment I reflect on too much. Uh but yeah, I mean I quickly mentioned earlier, you know, I came from a sort of divorced um background.
You know, I never saw my sort of biological father again. Um but also I never saw any of his sort of family again. and you know there was a sort of a random moment let's say you know so stumble back into that arena briefly you know and to kind of find that you know not just um that you missed out on decades but um you know after people that you just assumed would still be there they're all gone you know what I mean like lit in a physical sense they were dead and you're like hell I mean and uh you know at that point you think sh I' give anything to sort of go back in time or you know think about things differently or you know perhaps just say a few final things um but you can't and uh you know that stuff's not even on the radar which is um it it's a sad truth of high performance I think >> yeah I I don't think high performance is what people outside of high performance think it is I think high performance is lonely high performance happens in the shadows I heard someone saying and I think that's kind of a nice expression that sums up a lot of what high performance is.
>> Yeah, it does. Yeah, it's um I think these days I'm very much a fan very much a fan of like just um health, physical activity, riding bikes, you know, playing five side with your mates. I love all the sort of like social cohesion that can happen.
the the idea that doing exercise or sport, you know, even as an keen amateur or an enthusiast is a great thing. But would I say that elite professional sport is healthy in inverted commas? No.
Like absolutely not. I think you like, you know, you push your body to like the the absolute outer limits. You know what I mean?
You know, even um you take you'll take uh you won't think anything of like taking three flat whites at Costa Coffee and then getting on your bike and just absolutely rinsing yourself for an hour and just like being just physically and mentally exhausted. Um you know, and it's uh I don't think it's healthy in the traditional sense. Um it's not for everyone.
Yeah. And to be honest, like if somebody said like, "What's a blueprint for success?" I don't think it's that difficult.
Like I said, you have to focus. You know, we've talked about what that really means in reality. Uh and you know, you got to sacrifice everything.
I don't I don't think it's that difficult to give someone a blueprint for success. You could tell them about high performance principles. You tell them like what the foundation is, like what marginal gains is, everything you have to sacrifice.
I think the hardest thing is not losing yourself on the journey. Yeah. And for me, even the hardest part of that is right back to the start of that statement.
I'm still not entirely sure what success is. It's like when I look at people, you know, you talk about Calvin Grant with their money. Is that success?
Not for me. No. It's like you talk about other people with medals.
It's like, is that success? I don't know. Maybe.
Like it's just it the lad with the eight figure exit. Is that success? He's divorced.
He's broken. He's miserable. He's fat.
It's like no, that's not success. Like I'm still trying to find out what my version of that is. And I think if somebody had have told me now, you know, same age as you at this in my 40s that I would feel basically the same as I did in my 20s.
Like that I'd still have the same insecurities. I'd still have the same ambition. I'd still have the same indecision of where I'm going next.
I think I might have played the 20s and 30s differently. >> Yeah. Yeah.
I I think so. Um Yeah. Yeah, I mean I I I don't know what success is either.
I reckon we'll probably both work it out, mate, by the last week we have on the planet, but I mean if if somebody said today like, you know, what's what's success really about? I think the smartest thing I could tell them is number one, just try and be a bit kinder to yourself and a bit kinder to others. And number two, I'd tell them that like the most for all of us like the most lasting success you can have isn't about money, power, fame, fortune.
It's about what you can create and what you can leave behind. You know, how you can make the world slightly better for other people. And I think that's probably the smartest thing I could say.
>> Before we finish up, and I'd be rinsed if I don't ask about it, 2012, the home games, abiding memories from that. Yeah, it's you kind of know it's uh you know, even just thinking about like the event makes me nervous and you know, brings back like little flashbacks to like I go down there now and again for like little corporate track sessions and so on and you kind of remember the big team bus going into the village and I remember looking down and seeing the trainers and just random little flashbacks and you know, of course, I remember being sat on the the seats outside the uh you know, the track next to Berky Pete Kenna Garine looking at my own reflection in my visor and thinking right you know here we go this is the one moment I knew we'd be talking about on podcast for decades to come and um yeah I mean there four confident you know relatively outgoing guys you know all secretly sat in a hotel room [ __ ] yourself for weeks before it and then you kind of get on the big line and you go into this like almost like a trance like an autom imated state that you've practiced in your mind a thousand times. And yeah, all the nerves go as soon as the the beeps go and the gun goes off and you just you're in like you are in the zone and you don't really think about anything else.
It's just all automated and um you cross the line and there's a few suspect moments where have you won, have you lost? You're kind of waiting. you listen to the crowd.
The crowd is cheering but you don't trust what's happened and you know eventually you know you're that knackered you the world's kind of gone dark anyway but you slowly come around to the realization that we've done it you know we've won and then um and then I woke up the next day all the other three had gone out on the on the Raz and I was riding the Omnium and uh Gite was asleep like just in a massive starfish shape completely naked and there was >> there's a visual And there was like uh Berky was he was like hanging out off his bed with his head literally in the bin that he'd been sick in. Uh Pete Kenner had gone missing and we never saw him for a week. Um and it was my job to step over the carnage.
I went to the Omnium and did that for two days and I got bronze medal out of that which was a great result really looking back. And uh yeah, I mean the next week was just a blur of media and nightclubs with beless celebrities and you know literally spraying bottles of champagne around our apartment d you know champagne was literally dripping off the ceiling and um yeah it was a once in a lifetime thing and um I'll always be super grateful for you know everyone that made it happen who whether sport England UK sport the British government British cycling. Everyone and anyone that um gave me a pat on the back in a supermarket, wished me luck.
And uh yeah, you know, no matter where it's brought me or left me, and yeah, I'll always be incredibly grateful for for that. I've talked to some guys who were who've been in war, you know, they fought in Afghanistan, Iraq, and they say the first moment of contact when bombs start dropping, guns start shooting, you forget about the infrastructure that got you there, you forget about the machinery of war and all you're doing is fighting for your mate beside you, the lad who you've come through training with. Is it similar when that gun shoots, it's just you and the three other boys?
>> Yeah. Oh, honestly getting it means so much to you in the moment. I know it's it's easy for us to sort of stand here now and be like, ah, you know, talk about what what is success really about?
And you know, when me, you, and everybody else are on our death beds, I don't think we would tell anyone that it's it's really important to be a millionaire or to be a success in a bike race. Of course, you wouldn't. But at the time, it feels like that's the most important thing you're ever going to do.
And yeah, the question was about your teammates. You know, I would rather have died a thousand times than to have let them boys down. Yeah.
Like that was my biggest fear throughout my whole career. You know, I did team pursuit. That was my thing for decades and decades.
My biggest fear wasn't sort of like public national humiliation. Um wasn't the my own personal result or you know, anything else. It was I just didn't want to be [ __ ] for the boys.
>> There's something so beautiful and unique about cycling. This is a great place to leave it cuz you will always hurt more for one of your mates than you'll hurt for yourself. >> Yeah.
Yeah, you do. It's cycling. Cycling is the best sport in the world for so many reasons in my opinion.
It's there's no other sport out there that has like such a beautiful marriage of technology and human performance. And I don't think there's any other sport, particularly the road stuff, where you have to be selfless. Unless you are the leader, you've got to have altruism, like a sense of cooperation and a desire to be part of something bigger than your own individual aspirations.
And I think it brings out the best in people. And um I like that. >> What's occupying your time now?
What have you got on the horizon? And what have you got coming for us to check out? >> Yeah.
Yeah. So, uh, right now, I mean, I've busy working away with an active travel commissioner job. I'm absolutely loving being fully involved with British Syon again, and I have just released a book called Full Gas Forever, which is um, >> yeah, it's a book which has been co-wrote by a wonderful lady called Lexi Williams.
And I guess like a lot of sort of cycling Bibles out there, there's chapters on training, equipment, sleep, nutrition, recovery, and so on. And um I guess what makes it unique is that as we've discussed, I'm 40 years old now. And um every single chapter in there is tailored and sort of bespoke made to the aging cyclist, a 40 plus cyclist if you like.
So everything I've mentioned there, even biomechanics, um your nutrition, your recovery, your sleep, all your training, it changes as you get older. And you're not banging on about how great cycling is. Cycling is also a great sport or activity because you can do it really, really well into your 40s, 50s, 60s, and that makes it unique.
So this book is tailored to people my age and up that still want to keep going full gas. >> It's on my list. It's my next book.
I'm getting it. Good man. >> Ed, I've chatted to dozens of people on the podcast have said to me, recommended you need to chat with Ed Clansancy.
He's one of the nicest guys in cycling. And it's been an absolute honor. You genuinely are one of the nicest guys in cycling.
So, thank you so much for your time today. Oh, >> it's really kind. Likewise, I've enjoyed it.
Thanks Antifa.