Bonk, bloat, or breakthrough? Watch this to find out. I rode my regular Saturday Roadman 100 km loop on three different occasions.
First time out I went at it underfueled. Second time I went optimally fueled and the third time I went overfueled. Too little and you bonk.
I bonked pretty bad. Spoiler. Too much fuel and your gut revolts.
But here's the key. More isn't always better. You can fool yourself.
Yuri Carlson joins me today. She is a fueling expert and she sets the protocol for this little challenge. One ride when I went out, I felt like I had rockets in my legs, but the numbers and my stomach told a slightly different story.
Stay tuned to what Yuri says about where over fueling starts to slow you down because more isn't always better. I hope you're going to love this conversation as much as I enjoyed having it. Yuri Carlson.
Yuri, welcome back to the Roadman podcast. >> Thanks for having me back. >> Yuri, today I want to set this up as a strange challenge that I'm going to attempt.
We're all bombarded with different carb intake suggestions. There's this wide variety of carb recommendations from maybe at the bottom of 60 grams an hour to the top. I've heard Alex Wild and Cameron Jones who won Unbound this year talking about 200 to 220 grams of carbs an hour.
I've also recently had a podcast with the nutritionist for tutor pro cycling, Tim Podlar, and he talked about absorption rates and how more is necessarily better. So, I wanted to set up a weird experiment and I'm going to reveal the answers at the end of the podcast. I'm going to tag it on as sort of like a mini vlog to the end of the podcast where I'm going to go out and I'm going to do my regular Road Man Saturday ride.
It's roughly a 100 kilometer loop. I want to do it underfueled, optimally fueled, and overfueled. So, I want you to help me establish the protocol for what each of those looks like.
overfield, optimum, under, and what you expect the results to be in terms of power and heart rate in each of these. Does that sound like a challenge that you can accept? >> Yeah, absolutely.
This will be fun. Okay. Um, are we talking about like how you're going into this too in terms of your underfueled, overfueled, oat fueled?
>> I think we'll go intra ride fueling. I'll try and I'll try and normalize >> the lead into it with similar carb intake for the 24 hours leading up to it. >> Yep.
Okay, that sounds great. >> And so I will I'll pick an arbitrary power figure like what's top end of my zone to like 230 watts and I'll average 230 watts on this ride. What does underfuel look like >> on that at 82ish kilograms?
80 kg. I haven't been on scales in a while. >> Um, okay.
So, we can look at this from kind of the mental side of things and how this is going to feel and then from the physical side of things on how this is going to feel, right? How this is going to show up for you. Um, mentally, right?
Like there can be I mean this gets into the point where all right you've got this if you go into this underfueled or you you are underfueled during this effort. You're probably going to feel it first and foremost in your legs and your ability to go out and execute that effort. You're probably going to have a little bit of a higher heart rate.
It's going to feel that like higher rate of RP, right? um pro potentially towards the second half of the effort, towards the end of the effort, maybe a little bit of lightadedness, nausea, just kind of not feeling totally with it, optimally with it. Um maybe a little bit of decreased um what would you call it?
Decreased like ability to like stay on the wheel or focus on the ride, that kind of thing. And then you're likely thinking about food when you're not adequately fueled, right? you're probably thinking about, oh man, this sounds good or this sounds good or just anything at that point probably sounds good.
>> So, should I go into this and intra fuel with zero carbohydrates or would you suggest like a low number of like I don't know 10 20 >> Yeah. Yeah. I would just I mean you could probably cut your your regular intake like your happy baseline in half or something like that and that would set you up to be properly underfueled.
>> So, I think I'm perpetually underfueled anyway. So cutting this in half is going to be uh quite the challenge. I'd say I'm >> painful.
>> Max 40 grams of carbs an hour. I'm like one bag of Haribo every two hours. Bag of Haribo in this country is 90 grams of carbohydrates.
So I'm 45 grams an hour. So you think let's let's call low fueling 20 grams of carbohydrates per hour. >> Yeah, that's solidly low fueling.
>> Okay, let's do that. And you think I'm going to see a heart rate decoupling across duration? Decoupling of power from heart rate?
>> I would think so. >> Any guesses how bad? >> Oh man.
I mean, a lot of this probably depends on how often you're doing this to yourself, right? >> And kind of what your optimal intake is in the first place, right? If you if you think Anthony that you are probably as a baseline not optimally fueled and then you go into this and you cut kind of your low end in half even more so it's probably going to be more significant than if you were coming into this being optimally fueled on a very regular basis like without a doubt and then cut back >> because cuz my mind I was going the other way with that.
I was like have I secretly been training for this challenge for the last 10 years because I'm under fueling. Am I is like my fat oxidation rate adapted to this challenge? >> Yeah, I mean right it depends on like your and and your liver's availability to make stored glycogen carbohydrate available, right?
That can be different for each person. So your training adaptations that you've set yourself up for absolutely there's so many factors that are going to play a role here. So it's going to be really interesting.
I will try and take the data and then I'll I'll run it through some AI as well and try and normalize for wind conditions so we can see what the effect is on average speed as well as power and heart rate decoupling. >> So for the we'll call it I guess the control optimum fueling. >> What's optimum fueling on a two hour and sorry three hours zone two ride >> in terms of what you want to be taking in >> intrafueling.
Yeah. 60 plus grams, you think? >> So, if you're it it whenever someone asks me this question, I always say like it depends, right?
It depends on what your current intake is and how that's making you feel and what numbers you're seeing and what your output looks like and how you feel afterwards and all those kind of components, right? So for you, if you've told me that kind of your like regular is 45 grams of carbohydrates, I'm guessing you're probably and and that you feel like that's a little bit low, I'm guessing you're probably at more like a baseline, like a happy baseline of 60 grams of carbs per hour. >> Okay.
So again, we'll use the same reporting on that then on the three, right? And if we go into >> overfueled, I guess this is now starting to bring in >> maybe some performance gains, >> but am I starting to worry now about GI issues as well? >> Yeah, totally.
So, this is this is a huge topic, right? Is that like more isn't always better. And one of the reasons for that is because your gut is a semi-p permeable the permeable membrane, right?
Water can go into your blood circulation. It can go but it can come from circulation back into your gut. So if you have too much carbohydrate in your gut that your body is not utilizing because it's too much and it doesn't need it, your gut can actually pull water from circulation into your stomach to water down that concentration of carbohydrate because it wants to have equal concentration on both sides.
So you might get a little bit of GI upset. You might get that kind of sloshy stomach feeling or that over full feeling. >> Yeah, actually I'm quite prone to that.
Like >> in general, if I go out and you know the other time you meet a friend and do you want to go for pizza and you'd end up having like a huge carb feed that you've never had, I never feel super well after that. >> Yep. Exactly.
>> So, how high should I go with this to really emphasize the point? Should I go up as high as 200? That would you would probably notice that pretty instantly.
That would >> Okay, >> that that might hurt really quickly. Um >> I mean, what about 120 to 130? >> Okay.
Yeah. 120 130. >> Yeah.
What have you have you done that before? That's the question, too. >> No.
>> Yeah. >> Probably like occasionally in a race, but like not for a long time. >> Yeah.
Yeah. And if this is a zone 2 effort, you know, you're that's probably significantly more than you need. >> Yes, I would I would imagine so.
So, yeah, it's going to be interesting. So, I I will report back. Is the prediction between the lowest end and the highest end?
Do you anticipate much of a difference in terms of sensations, heart rate decoupling, power output? >> Yeah, for sure. I mean, in terms of in terms of sensations, first of all, you when you're underfueled, you're likely not going to get the GI upset that you get when you're overfueled.
It's more that you feel it with your your heart rate responding accordingly and your legs just probably not feeling like you you have the power. When you overfueled, it's probably going to come up more in the GI upset component of things. That's how it's going to impact you.
Um, you're probably going to get some flare fatigue as well, like nothing is going to sound good as opposed to thinking about food and anything sounding good, you know, in the underfueled side of things. Um, with power when you're overfueled, that's an interesting one, right? Because you have enough to to do the work.
You have more than enough to do the work, but you're also compromising other systems that are impacting your ability to do the work. >> Yeah. I often find when I'm overfueled on the occasion I have overfueled, which is rare, but if I overfueled on the off-road, that seems to irritate me more than over fuel onroad because there's a extra component of concentration and I'm just kind of distracted by how I feel and I often take bad lines and >> Yeah.
It it doesn't end well. >> Yep. Exactly.
Your ability to show up mentally gets impacted there. But so if you have a client comes into you, I know you have a roster of amazing clients and they're saying like they're reporting I have no energy two to three hours into a ride and you're looking at their carbohydrate intake. How are you differentiating between this is somebody that is under fueling versus they have a gut absorption issue?
Um, a lot of times I'm looking at what they've historically been doing in the past and what their output is to see if, you know, like the whole idea is are you fueling the work and if they're fueling the work adequately with the right amount of carbohydrate intake or around that, but they're still just feeling like they don't have it for some reason. Then I'm looking at, okay, is there an issue, you know, internally that's making it so that you can't that something is up, right? Like you said, the absorption issue.
Um, we're also looking at hydration and electrolyte intake because that a dehydration can cause a lot of, you know, a lack of ability to just show up mentally as well as impact your overall performance. >> Is it a game of trial and error of trying to figure out what my optimum fueling is for zone 2, zone 3, zone 4? Like because we talked about more isn't better, but how do you think about setting up the guard rails for understanding where the limits are of high-end and low-end for each of these zones?
>> Yeah. Yeah. Um, a lot of times I'm looking at averages of, you know, like what what this what the person is taking in first of all, what their current baseline is and what they're doing and figuring out.
I mean, based on all the anecdotal evidence that I have of working with various athletes, right, I have a w this number bank in my head of kind of the low-end averages, high-end averages for many, many different types of athletes. So, that helps me inherently. What I'm also looking at is well, we can't rely 100% on what the, you know, Garmin heart rate data is telling us in terms of all that data is telling us in terms of how many calories we're burning per hour.
We can take averages of say the same, you know, your Saturday effort for that zone two effort. We can take maybe three of those and average out the calorie burn over three of those to get a low-end range and a high-end range. And then we want to aim to replace around 50% of those calories burned per hour.
And that's a great baseline to start with to kind of create a starting point in the first place. >> And you're replacing 100% of those calories with carbohydrates. >> Yeah.
Okay. So 50% of my hourly calorie burn. That's early.
>> Yeah. >> Are we differentiating between because I know this gets into something which is maybe quite nuanced for this and definitely goes beyond my comprehension like efficiency levels. Are we using kiloals and kilogjles in a onetoone >> relationship?
Because I even I know speaking to some nutritionists measuring efficiency is quite hard and the delta between the most efficient and the least efficient. >> It's actually a wide enough bucket that it is meaningful. >> Absolutely.
Yeah. I mean we have to kind of just account for the fact that there are going to be a lot of variables or there's going to be variables that come into play, right? And that's the whole that's that's what comes up so much in nutrition is that it's never exactly this or exactly that.
So we have to account for ranges you know we for so for example if I have an athlete I'm like this is your low range it's not exactly 40 grams of carbohydrates per hour and your high range is not exactly 80 grams of carbohydrates per hour it's going to be you know 40 to 50 or it's going to be 80 to 100 and it's accounting for those kind of things that come into play and the fact that we are not machines right we can't only look at the numbers we have to look at hey how do we field, what's our RPE, you know, what is our desire to eat versus our lack of desire to eat, and all of these other components that help us make more informed decisions about what that person's needs are for any variable type of effort that they're doing. >> Nutrition has evolved so much in fueling in the last 10 years, it's unrecognizable. Even the last five years, it's sped up so much.
Mhm. >> I was playing around on AI the other day with the idea of single point of failure in different industries and in Alzheimer's research they had one paper that proposed that amaloid plaque was the cause of Alzheimer's and I can't remember exactly when that paper was say it was 20 years ago and every subsequent study then built on the amaloid on the amaloid plaque thesis that this is what causes dementia and it turned out that this is quite a high-profile case now because that's one of the biggest cases of documented research fraud. So they lost 15 to 20 years of Alzheimer's research because every subsequent study took this underlying premise as gospel and built upon that in the nutrition space.
If the underlying study and the underlying findings of Sam I impy which and Sam will kill me for saying this were wrong in the 2016 field for the work required paper are we all going down this rabbit hole of experimenting around carbohydrates and missing is is is this the single point of failure is there an alternate thesis that we're not exploring by virtue of going deeper and deeper down this carbohydrate echo chamber >> man I mean I think that goes back to kind of what I was saying before in terms of like yes that matters but there's other components of all of this that matter because we're looking at the we're looking at the human experience and we're looking at each individual as a whole and it's not you know what is going to to dictate their performance at the end of the day is yes carbohydrate intake but also so many other components that make them a human right so I think it's just I don't I don't know exactly how to relate that to the Alzheimer's research and and having that be like the thing that every the path that everyone went down and then finding out that it was the wrong path to go down. I don't think that carbohydrates is the wrong path to go down and fueling for the work required is the wrong path to go down. But I think that's, you know, that that may be the main path, but there's also additional components of this that matter as well that are going to significantly impact somebody's ability to perform or their lack of ability to perform.
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I'm going to put that in the description down below. Yeah, I love that. One of the ones you mentioned was fluid intake and sodium levels around that.
What role does sweat composition play in that ability to process carbohydrates? >> Yeah, this is becoming more and more prevalent. You know, sodium loss sweat testing, fluid loss sweat testing has been around and available for for longer just because it's an easier test to do as opposed to sodium loss sweat testing, which requires like special equipment and that kind of thing.
But it's becoming more readily available to people, which I think is really exciting, especially for people that have struggled for a long time with dehydration or high sodium loss sweat rates where they just can't get in what the average product is giving them and and that kind of thing. So yes, we're looking at the fact that so for example, when we're looking at that at at hydration products, right? That hydration products that have sugar in them can help us optimally hydrate because sugar molecules help bring more water molecules across the small intestine.
So we've got this interplay between hydration supporting overall carbohydrate intake and we've got this interplay. >> That's really interesting. I didn't know that.
So that's different from >> I was under the impression and I think a lot of people are you could run water in your bottles and have you know your fueling strategy entirely based off Friday and you're good to go but there's a difference in fueling solid fuel and water versus traditional sports drinks. >> Yeah. Well, sure.
So, like a traditional sports drink like with with a little bit of carbohydrate in it, with sugar in it and electrolytes in it and then getting your fuel from some other carbohydrates as well. What happens is when you are consuming a sports drink with electrolytes and sugar in it, the sugar can help to get more water molecules across your intestine >> in a way that Yeah. So, would that happen if I had a handful of Haribo bomb washed down with a water electrolyte mix or does it have to be in the actual drink?
>> That's a good question. I I don't want to say one way or another because I'm not 100% sure on that. Um, but it's coming I'll tell you where it's coming from.
coming from the what we see a lot is people picking up a product that has sugar in it and saying, "Oh, I don't want a product with sugar in it." Right? Sugar is bad.
I shouldn't be having that. I'm like, "Your electrolyte product can have sugar in it because it's going to help optimally hydrate you." Like, there's this there's this fear of sugar and carbohydrate that has been translated into anything with sugar and carbohydrate in it is bad and it's not going to benefit me.
like, well, we have to look at the context of it. If you're sitting on your bike and you're trying to optimize your hydration, the sugar can actually be beneficial. And I'm not sure totally if the sugar in the, you know, the electrolyte drink is going to be the same and have that same like boost to hydration, moving those water molecules across the small intestine as if you were consuming the herbo.
>> Yeah. I remember when I first got onto the national track team, they used to weigh us before and after sessions and then have us replace the difference in weight in fluid that evening. Yeah.
>> Is that is that still like acceptable science or is it evolved from that? >> It's a it's that that's a starting point. So, the way that that I will have people do the fluid loss sweat tests, which is what was happening there, is I will have them there's actually a calculator online from the Gatorade Sports Science Institute.
So, if you type into Google GSSI Gatorade Sports Science Institute fluid loss calculator, it's a really easy way to plug in your pre-ex exercise body weight and then your post exercise body weight. You can also tell them how much fluid you consumed during the effort. And then from there, it'll tell you what your fluid loss was.
From there, you want to replace 75 to 90% of those losses. And that's in an effort to lo not lose more than 2 to 3% of your body weight per per session. Because if you lose more than 2 to 3% of your body weight, what we know about that is that's when de dehydration starts to happen and that's when we start to compromise our performance.
And am I replacing that 75 to 90% purely with water or is it back to your water, sugar, electrolyte mix? >> Yeah, that's when we're getting into electrolytes because there's two components of what happens when you are sweating and losing fluid, you're also losing sodium, which is the primary electrolyte that you lose when you sweat. That's what we need to replace, too.
So, my general rule of thumb is anytime you're sweating, you need to be replacing what you're losing in your sweat. What you're losing your sweat is you're losing fluid. You're also losing electrolytes.
So what would happen if you were just consuming water when you're sweating is you have your system, right? Your body here, you're consuming water at the same time you're losing electrolytes. You're watering down those electrolytes in your blood plasma that you're already losing.
So that's a double whammy there, you know. >> So So how does this play with a glycogen re-uptake window? So when we finish our session the idea that our bodies are more primed to reabsorb lost glycogen.
So traditionally we would have reach for a recovery drink around then >> some people would have used you know a commercial recovery drink like I know you're working in scratch labs they have some recovery drinks. >> Y >> I've often just used chocolate milk that's a 4 to one carbohydrate to protein mix >> or just literally eyeballed it into the blender. But should I be additionally looking to have a dual function in this of yes having one eye on glycogen reuptake but having a secondary eye on electrolyte and rehydration in the same drink >> you could for sure and and then that would be especially important if you're doing a multi-day effort right like backtoback stage race something like that or if your losses were really significant right if you're exercising in the extreme heat and you maybe just couldn't get in what you needed to it in during then you want to replenish your glycogen or sorry your electrolytes your sodium as much as possible right after that.
There's not necessarily like the the glycogen window, like the sensitivity that happens with with insulin acting on your muscle cells in terms of that, but typically the general rule of thumb is like drink electrolytes, have a serving of electrolytes, notice, you know, hey, when do you when do you have to go pee next, right? And you're you're going to be adequately hydrated if you can, you know, as soon as you can start to like urinate at a regular frequency after you finish your effort as opposed to, hey, I finished my effort and it's been two hours and I still haven't had to go pee. >> You probably want to start drinking some electrolytes.
>> Anyone who's had dope control after a race will have that experience where you're just sitting around waiting for two hours and you can't go for a pee and they're just they're kind of staring at you going, "Can I go home?" >> It's like Yeah, not yet. But also, we're seeing this move towards uh trying to minimize oxidative stress after races where cherry drinks are getting consumed as well.
It feels like my postra like toolbox of stuff I need is getting more and more complicated here. I need to look at preventing oxidative stress, glycogen reuptake, electrolytes, and water. It's like I'm spending my whole day just drinking different color drinks as soon as I get in.
Yeah, the tart cherry juice is a big thing right now because that's what was just being handed to everyone like after the tour, right? It's just this topic of conversation and >> what I have seen and and and the general >> take on that for me and with my clients when they're asking me about that and should I be doing that and should I be adding that to my recovery repertoire along with the recovery drink where I'm aiming for you know four parts carbohydrate one part protein is that's not necessarily something that you want to be using long term because it is this anti-inflammatory right and inflammation to some degree agree is beneficial to help our bodies adapt. So, it's something that you could use if you were doing a multi-day stage race.
If you are doing backto-back hard efforts, maybe over the weekend, but I wouldn't have somebody do it seven days a week or after every single exercise. >> Well, I guess this is the same idea as why we don't want to over fuel on a zone one, zone 2 riot. We want the level of oxidative stress.
We want our bodies to fight. You know, people used to jump into a cold plunge straight after strength training and then it you're preventing that kind of muscle hypertrophy after the session like you want your body to fight for some of these gains. >> Yeah.
>> Someone that's listening that hasn't accessed a sweat test before, what's the sweat test you would recommend as kind of the gold standard they should go out and get done? And once you have the results of that, then is it obvious how you tailor your sports strengths to those recommendations? >> Yeah.
So for someone that's getting started and wants to get clarity on this, I would have them at first do a handful of fluid loss sweat tests on their own in various >> Gatorade one. >> That's the Gatorade one. Yeah.
So that'll tell them how much fluid they're use losing per hour, right? Um and that will give them a good range again for a low end and a high end. So they'll know like okay on my hottest longest efforts or really not even on the longest efforts because you want to do those fluid loss sweat tests actually for like a 45 to 75 minute effort so you don't have to deal with the variable of taking in solid food because that's a weight thing as well.
So you can do it for shorter efforts but do it in different conditions different humidity different temperatures that kind of thing and have three to five of those and have a low end and a high end. And then if you want to get into the sodium loss, then that's when you have to either go and find somebody with a sweat check device. This is a medical grade device.
And so Precision Fuel and Hydration has these devices and they have people that are able to do these all over the place. You can go onto their website. You can find where they're able to do that.
>> Um, Scratch Labs has one in in Boulder. That's where I've done them before and been able to do them on my athletes as well. And then there's some mail in options or devices that you can get.
Lelin is one. Um Nyx is one. It's kind of getting there.
I've tested that against my my device that I used at Scratch, the medical grade like gold standard device, which is the same thing that Precision uses, and it wasn't as accurate as my Levelin test was. So, I kind of compared across some some different testing options and leveling was the most accurate compared to that medical grade device. Um, so it kind of depends if you want to go and take it to that next level.
I would say not everyone needs to do it. If you don't have issues with cramping or if you don't have issues with feeling like you're you have no clarity on your hydration goals, then maybe you don't need to do it. But if you have historically had issues with cramping or with dehydration, then it's definitely worth getting or you feel like you're just a really above average heavy sweater.
>> Yeah, it's an interesting segue to what uh another area I wanted to finish up on and spend a little bit of time on. It's kind of the idea of we're in such a data driven culture, but there is a lot to be said and I know you've spoken really well and written about intuitive eating. Is this the bridge >> from these two topics here?
I'm thinking is this intuitive drinking? If you're finding like you're getting through your bottles well enough and you're having those legacy issues like cramping or you know inability to pee in the afternoon that maybe you don't need to go and investigate these and if you're not such an intuitive drinker, maybe that's when you need to start thinking the next layer of analysis. >> Yeah.
And well, so the idea is is that if you have the adequate sodium concentration and electrolyte concentration in your bottles, you can more accurately and confidently drink to thirst. However, the issue lies in that we have to figure out what your sodium and your electrolyte concentration needs to be. And that's different for each person.
So, you know, the the average electrolyte drink, like 400 milligrams of sodium, for example, like that's based on the average sweat loss and and thus sodium replacement needs for the average person. Some people are below that average, some people are above that average. That's what we need to recognize that these products are not made for every single person out there.
So, that >> the averages are so though, aren't they? cuz it's like the fat gamer who's sitting down playing World of Warcraft all day and taga >> like they're they're hardly the same species >> and to average out the two of those because they're two outliers on either end of the scales like >> the average maybe ends up not being very representative of you who ride 8 to 12 hours a week at all. >> Yeah.
Well, right. Ideally, they're taking the average from athletes and people that are actually doing this on a regular basis as opposed to the massive outliers. >> Yeah.
Like when you get your testosterone done and the doctor like, "Oh, you're just about average." And you're like, "Oh, I'm so screwed." >> Yeah.
Yep. Yep. I do that.
I have to do that a lot with my athletes when they're testing iron and feritin. And the range for feritin, for example, is huge. But that applies to the general population.
It doesn't apply to athletes, even more specifically endurance female athletes. So that's a whole another thing. But yeah, you're absolutely right.
You know, like we h we can look at these numbers, Anthony, but then I'm having conversations with my with my athletes and I'm saying like, you know, what is your craving for sodium? How often are you are you feeling super thirsty during your efforts? Are you that person that like in your group of friends that you ride with, are you like constantly sweating and you're like, why is nobody else sweating?
Or are you like, no, I don't really sweat that much and I come home and I'm like pretty good. You know, so there's all these other components that come into play that are going to help me better figure out where my person lies and figure out if we need to get them a sodium lost sweat test or maybe if that doesn't necessarily apply to them. >> What do stage slayer Mads Patterson and half the professional pelaton have in common?
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Sarah was asking me the other day like why do you keep buying a bag of salt and vinegar crisps after training? And it's only just dawned on me as you were saying that I was like oh no I'm that dude. she's talking about.
>> Yeah. Yeah. Absolutely.
Right. It's And she's like, I don't I don't want that kind of stuff, but you obviously do. >> Yeah.
So, I should probably stick a second bottle cage on the bike. >> Yeah. And you can up your sodium concentration if you want to and just see how that tastes for you and see how that feels and see if you're driven to consume, you know, instead of 400 milligrams, maybe 600 milligrams or 800 milligrams in your bottle and see if if you like that and if that feels good.
So, how do you think about then the interplay of fuel for the work required versus intuitive eating? Because when I use Hexus or any of the training or dietary recommendations based off fuel for the work required, >> it feels like I'm overeating. There's nothing feels intuitive about sitting down to have 700 grams of potatoes >> with my dinner.
or a Sam imp said one of the guys he gave them an option after I think it was the juralia stage and he said hey do you want rice or pasta and rice absorbs water at a different rate to pasta so it's not as carbohydrate dense for anyone who doesn't know that and he's like oh I think I'll go with the rice and Sam's like bad choice he's like why he's like well based off that today's calculation you're going to need to eat one kilogram of rice for your dinner >> so how do you think about that interplay between it because there's nothing intuitive about eating 1 kilogram of rice at your dinner. >> And this is where it gets complicated for athletes because when we're talking about fueling for the work required and we're talking about our just elevated needs for carbohydrates number one, but for calories number two, a lot of times is that sometimes we can't rely on that. You know the the standard blanket statement of intuitive eating is eat when you're hungry, stop when you're full.
Right? When we are adding in exercise and the fact that exercise, especially for high intensities or long durations, suppresses our appetite, sometimes we have to eat where we truly don't feel like eating because we're not in that rest and digest state. So that can become challenging.
But there's intuitive eating is much it's much more than just that. It's a bigger picture. We're talking about practical hunger versus emotional hunger, for example, right?
Practical hunger is like, you know, hey, it's been four hours since I last ate and I don't necessarily feel super hungry, but I know that if I don't eat something right now and the next two hours happens because I'm in meetings and things like that, it's going to be six hours and then I'm going to be starving. I'm going to have something to prevent that and getting to that place where then I'm eating or I'm over full because it's been six hours. those kind of things come into play, right?
Or the the emotional side of eating, that kind of thing. So, um >> they're quite sorry to jump in. I think they are quite linked as well that I'd really call that a common sense eating, like eating where you're going into a >> before a meeting because I find that I emotionally eat when I don't common sense eat.
I think they're quite linked. >> Yes. my my willpower to not make the bad decision that I know is the wrong decision for my goals is eroded when I don't make the common sense choice earlier in the day.
>> Exactly. Yeah. It's those kind of things, right, where you can just be aware of, hey, how how is my body going to respond if I make this choice or don't make this choice right now?
and being aware of what your triggers are and what your needs are and all of those components that come into play that allow you to make food decisions based on what your needs are in any given moment. And and I think one of the big components here is also recognizing that like those needs change on a daily basis because we're not all doing the same thing every single day. So when we're looking at big box diets and you know a I should have this many calories and this many macros every single day no matter what we're doing, there's a huge disconnect there.
that shouldn't be happening and it sets people up for failure because >> we're not doing the same thing every single day. Thus, we don't need to be eating the same thing every day. >> Also, a huge mistake that I was making and if anyone didn't listen to the Tim Pelar interview, I'd go back because he expands on this is the idea of when you take your your Garmin or your hammerhead stats.
So we're looking at our kilogjles, then we're using efficiency score and basically interpreting that one for one kilo calories. And then we're adding our base metabolic rate for the day. That's the wrong way to do it, he suggested.
Because if you've had a six-hour ride, you've replaced your kilo calories on the six-hour ride, your base metabolic now needs to be based off 18 hours, not 24 hours. You're tw because you've been six hours on the bike. So, I was over fueling because of that.
I was assuming my metabolic rate was metabolic rate added my add to my six-hour kilo calorie ride from the day. Add the two of them together and that should be my total calorie consumption for the day. Where he suggested it's your work on the bike plus your metabolic for the day minus the hours that you were on the bike is your total calorie for the day.
I was like, I actually never thought of that because your metabolic rate for that six-hour period is built into this. You're double counting. >> Yeah.
Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.
>> Right. That was a big I've have a few aha moments when I'm talking to you guys where I'm like I can see how >> because like 500 six 500 600 calories a day compounding over a long enough period it starts to explain where you're like I don't really feel like I'm eating bad but I'm I've gained like 4 kilograms this summer. It's like what is going on?
I'm still riding like normal. I'm still But you just make one small miscalculation and it's like oh this is easy to happen. >> Yeah.
Yeah. A lot of times for my athletes, I'm not even getting into those calculations as specifically as I'm talking about what do we do in each given scenario, right? Like how are we making sure that we're eating a breakfast that kind of kickstarts our day and makes it so that we're not hungry an hour later and then we're getting into this kind of just cycle of eating too frequently throughout the day.
How do we make sure that we're eating a meal that holds us over for a solid, you know, three hours or so and then again we're not going too long without eating. Right? So, a lot of times we're creating a cadence for an for an athlete based on their day and then we're changing up that baseline cadence based on when their workout happens.
So, we're talking pre-workout, during workout, post-workout. And it just makes a lot more sense for people to be able to make those decisions based on what happens in their day and based on, you know, the variability of when they're training or sometimes it's like, oh, I couldn't get in my morning session in so I had to move it to the afternoon. And then we want to make sure we're optimizing and being really intentional about each one of those decisions they make.
So then at the end of the day, no matter what, it adds up and it supports what their goals are. And then that's when a lot of times without even trying, they're like, "Holy cow, I'm eating more frequently. I'm eating enough.
I'm recovering adequately. and I'm starting to see my weight change in the direction I want it to change or my body composition change, but I don't feel like I'm on this like counting calories or restriction diet because I'm just focusing on what my needs are. >> And that's the hardest most counterintuitive thing of this whole era of fuel for the work required where I would have always went to a period where I need to get leaner and my default would be >> I'm just cutting calories across the board.
>> I'm eating less on the bike. I'm eating less after the bike. I'm eating less before the bike.
And it's this willpower game for how long I can hold on to this. But you look at the best riders in the world now and they're eating five, six, 7,000 calories a day and they're losing weight. >> Yeah.
Right. Right. Because they're fueling, they're not cutting calories at all for pre- during and post-workout.
like that is their time where they're focusing on hey I want to set my body up to optimally perform to burn calories optimally not be predisposed to store them because it's in this scary stressful deficit and then outside of that they have a little bit more flexibility to reduce without it negatively impacting your performance or without your metabolism responding in a way where it's like hey I don't know when I'm going to get enough of what I need next so I'm going to hold on to more of this instead of burn it adequately for fuel and burn it as energy. >> Is there a period to reset? So, if you've been fueling, under fueling for 5 years, 6 years, 10 years, and you're trying to come around to this new way of fueling, >> does your body intuitively has it learned to hold on to is your body like defaulting to scarcity mindset?
And if so, how long does it take for it to switch to abundance mindset? >> Absolutely. Um, I don't have an exact answer for that because what I found is that yes, number one, the people that come to me with a history of chronic dieting, especially the extreme stuff, they have a harder time getting back to it's basically establishing trust with their body where it's, hey, I'm going to give you what you need when you need it so you can burn it for energy and to support performance and all that kind of stuff instead of being predisposed to store it because you're stressed and scared about this scarcity.
Right? Some people their bodies respond pretty quickly, you know, within like two to four weeks. Other people, for some reason, it takes longer.
And I'm not sure exactly, you know, there's there's probably research out there that gets more into the weeds on that of what exactly is happening there and more specifics on the timeline. I'm not sure exactly how to predict that or what all the factors are that play a role there, but I definitely do see a correlation between diet history and somebody's ability to come back to kind of just a normal place where there's trust. >> But there's a huge mental component to this.
Like I always say to athletes, it's training plus mental buyin plus recovery equals adaptation. And I think the mental buyin >> is especially important when we talk about diet. If I'm stressed and I'm questioning, is this the right path?
>> I'm not sure if our body starts losing weight in the presence of really high cortisol and it's cortisol induced from dietary panic. >> Yeah, absolutely. There's so there's so much related to stress and that can come some from so many different factors, right?
It can come from under fuel and it can come from the mental side of things. Yuri, I'm going to loop back in with you with my results if I make it through the low carb and high carb fueling. I'll report back in.
I'll send you a voice note and I'll let you know how it goes and hopefully I survive. >> Thank you for being willing to go out there and put yourself through. I can't wait to hear how it goes.
>> I'm like space monkey. First monkey shot into space, ready to go. Thanks, Jan.
>> Okay, it's low fuel day and it's about as much fun as you'd expect. I'm about halfway through my regular road mounts bin. I'm struggling for each of these rides.
Low, optimum, high fuel. I'm having identical breakfast before I go out the door. So, there's no sense of maybe carb loading before the identical one.
I'm halfway in. I'm riding just endurance pace, 200 to 220 watts. And I'm noticing my heart rate definitely higher observationally than it seems to be when I'm just out cruising.
I'm like hitting 128 130 beats at times. And yeah, the motivation is quite low. It's pretty gray today as you can see.
So maybe that's something to do with it. But the motivation is pretty pretty low at the moment. Uh time for deer diary.
Day two. Uh optimally fueled. I think that word optimally describes it.
Felt good. Uh look, I wasn't going out breaking any records. I haven't been training super well recently.
haven't been so consistent, but definitely felt good today. H wasn't hungry. Didn't feel like I had a emptiness or a hollowess in my legs, which I felt when I was under fueled.
80 to 85 gram of carbohydrates per hour, I'd say. I averaged on the spin. It was good fun.
It was good music. It was good cruisy day. Had some nice tailwinds in the right places.
Actually kind of wanted to open up to go for a few segments, but I held back to respect the protocol. Uh that was a fun day. enjoyed that one a lot.
Okay, this is no fun. I'm on the high carb fueling protocol. I actually probably pushed it a bit high.
I chatted with Alex Wild about as unbound fueling not too long ago and I think he was taking 200 220 gram of carbohydrates there are hour. So, I've kind of pushed it as high as I've ever done before, and I'm at about 160 grams of carbohydrates per hour. And honestly, I felt better.
Hold on, I'm going to pull in for a second. I felt better fueling under fueling where I had wherever I had a few days ago, the 35 gram of carbohydrates. The overfueled is disgusting.
Add to that. It's raining today. It's you see rain cape on.
Uh yeah, I feel disgusting. I had to stop to use the bathroom once my stomach is in nuts. I feel a little nauseous.
I'm going to keep I've got like 90 minutes a bit less to go. Uh I'm going to keep on the fueling and just suffer the consequences when I get home. But yeah, I feel terrible.
Uh less fuel for me seems to work better than more fuel. Maybe that's product of just years of underfueling and very little experience over fueling that my guts just not absorbing it and it's backing up. Uh but yeah, I feel disgusting.