Here's what most cyclists get completely wrong about running. Bike fitness doesn't automatically translate into running fitness. In this episode, I sit down with former world tour rider turned professional runner Jimmy Wheelen.
We break down exactly the mistakes you're making from the wrong shoes to poor mechanics and skipping those ever essential runspecific strength sessions. We cover injury prevention and how to run without wreaking havoc on your cycling performance. If you want to go for a run without sabotaging your entire cycling season, this episode is for you.
>> Jimmy W, welcome to the Roadman podcast. >> Cheers for having me on. >> Long time actually.
>> Uh, it's a pleasure. It's a pleasure. Uh, longtime fan of yours, so it's a it's good to connect.
Uh, a lot of cyclists were, we were chatting about this off air. A lot of cyclists, I think, were see ourselves more as athletes than bike riders. And we dabble from time to time in running.
And as we dabble in running or some of us transition more seriously into it like you have, we make a lot of mistakes. But those mistakes, they can be costly. So I want to early in the conversation at least I want to figure out what does the crossover look like?
How do we on board this in a smooth seamless way to start off the conversation? What was your first what was your first runs as a cyclist like? You know, were you getting back into it?
Because me, when I go out the door and I lace up my runners, I go out and I fall into probably the school boy trap. If I just run too hard, I have a like I'm going to go for a 40-minute run. I come back and I look at my dad.
I'm like, I sat firmly in the middle of zone three for that entire 40-minute run. I was like pinned at 155 heart rate. And then I come in and I'm so sore the next day.
Like is that one of the mistakes you see or what are you seeing as like the school boy mistakes? >> I wouldn't call them mistakes, just mis misunderstandings. Um but it is interesting like I have more I have more cyclists asking me about my running training than I do runners asking about my running training.
>> We're curious. Um, so yeah, and and I think people are seeing see running one as a as a different outlet and and something to enjoy and also something to possibly benefit their bike riding. Um, and yeah, running is a complicated old sport.
It's um, everyone will react differently to their first run in a long time if they're a bike rider. um the way they land, the shoes that they choose to use, uh what time of year they're doing it, like have they run repeatedly over the last five years. Like in my instance when I was a pro, um I was still running like once a min minimum like once every two weeks, sometimes every week.
Um like if my body was ever feeling a bit off, I would do a 10k jog on a Monday when I was on my my rest day >> really. So, um, I still always kept the tendons a little bit loaded and the bones and that like feeling for landing on my feet. Um, and uh, yeah, it's uh, there's lots of mistakes that I know my some of my M pro cyclists when they run in November or October, they always ask me, what do I do?
And I say, okay, just run really easy and get a good pair of shoes. And what I mean by a good pair of shoes is like a shoe with the new modern foams that are soft and responsive. So basically that softness will take the the load out of your bones and then the responsiveness of the foam as well will also uh do some of the work that your tendon doesn't have to do.
>> Um >> so it takes the loading takes the loading out of your legs. Um, now it kind of counteracts the idea of going for a run because as a bike rider, you're going for a run to load your legs and instead you're just trying you're just putting it through the shoe and so you're not actually getting those adaptations. >> But when you say shoes, modern shoes, are we talking specifically about the super shoes with the carbon rebound plate or just any of the modern shoes?
>> No, not the carbon plated shoes. You can wear the carbon plated shoes if you want. Um, but those shoes are more made to run when you're running fast.
So, if you're just going for a jog to wear a carbon plated shoe doesn't really make sense because it's you're meant to land on the front of your foot when you wear those shoes. And if you're a bike rider, you're probably going to be landing midfoot/heel because that's kind of how you pedal. >> Yeah.
>> Um that's not always the case. In my case, for some wacky reason, I land like really far on my toes, even though I spent eight years as a bike rider pedaling through my heels. Um, but yeah, uh, I guess that's why when you see runners going into pro cycling, you'll often see that they climb out of the saddle a lot.
Guys like Michael Woods is a good example. >> Yeah. >> Um, because they're used to running on their toes.
Um but yeah, when when I say it's specifically back back to the shoes, um just the the modern foams we have over 40 mil of stack >> um and sometimes 45 mil uh and and every brand has their own um their own type of these shoes. Um, and then eventually if you want if you do want to do some threshold work as a runner, which I would recommend for cyclist, but you have to build up to that, I would then wear the carbon plated shoes. Um, >> yeah, >> because I've heard cyclists, I've experienced this as well, but we see some bike riders, Warts, Match of Vanderpaul, I know they're both cyclross lads, so there's an element of running in this, but when they post the 10K on their Straa, it's pretty fast.
like they're they're moving straight off the bat and now there's a bit of the iceberg theory I'm sure there I'm sure they've you know their first few runs they're doing walk run they're building up to that and the straas on private and then they land the you know the 15minute 5k is the first one they throw up online but then you see others like Matteo Jorgensson had a piece like at home in Nice with Matteo Jorgensson and he said his running is just so bad that he feels like he'd need a full year to build up to actually even being able to go for a jog. What's the process that's going on that makes some riders able to take the impact straight away and others like Jorgensson feel like they need a year to build up to even been able to go for a simple jock? >> It's a complicated one.
Um cuz if you if you put five people on a treadmill all next to each other, five pro cyclists onto a treadmill in the offse, they're all very fit and they're, you know, they got V8 engines, but they'll all look completely different when they land and they'll make if you put them all at 15k an hour, so 4 minute Ks, everyone will look it it won't look like they're running the same pace cuz some will make it look easy, some will make it look hard. And that's all down to the way they land. And the way you land will then determine >> if you're using your glutes.
Uh it'll determine like where the force is going through your foot or through your knees or through your hips. Um, and you know, some some of the worst uh running styles as as a bike rider that can cause some serious injuries is just being a heavy heel striker >> and still looking like you're seated in a subtle where you haven't got your hips rolled properly forward. >> Yeah, that actually makes sense.
Is it almost because I'm contrasting two examples you gave there like the heel striker versus the toe striker. I'm seeing the toe striker almost falling forward. So, the momentum is just carrying the heel striker.
It feels like I'm hitting the air bra every single stride. >> Yeah. And all that I don't actually know, but like say you have 70 70 kilos of you.
All of that 70 kilos of force is going through your leg. If you're landing through your heel, it's going all through your legs and it's not rolling forward. And after a while, you can do some pretty serious damage.
Um, and it doesn't take long. like a pro cyclist can do two runs in their off seasonason and can find themselves in a pretty tricky situation with their with their team if they're not careful. Um like you hear horror stories of some some riders doing runs or even hikes in the offseason team camps and then all of a sudden they can't ride for months or a year.
Um I'm sure he won't mind me saying this, but like Matt Denham had a similar story to this. uh you know he came fifth in the world champs or something. Um and then that off season after a huge result he went for a run or a walk or something on their team camp and then had a problem for like a year and a half and has only just gotten back properly racing.
>> Jesus. >> And um and all all that can come from is just like a tendon problem. I don't actually know what the issue was.
Um and it's the the foot and the the anatomy of the foot and being a bike rider, it's such fragile area. And yeah, you got to be really careful. >> But so how do we as like a fitness enthusiast and someone that wants to do a little bit more running?
>> How do I build up? Because it it seems like the usual graded way we might build a a cycling training plan or any sort of progressive overload plan mightn't apply because there's a element of economy, technique, gate. How do we marry all those things into some sort of progressive plan to get us moving?
the the best thing that when someone asks and there's a message, you know, they're they're doing the Italian one day races at the end of the year and they send me saying, "Oh, like I'm I'm going to start doing running in a few weeks time in the offseason um just to enjoy something different, like what should I do?" And then I I told them like if you can do some skipping at the gym or just at home to like teach to like load the tendons a bit on your when you're bouncing up and down your toes, that's a really good way of doing it. Um and yeah, doing uh single leg jumps up onto a box and then down as well.
Um and that's just simple plyometrics to teach your brain how to land properly. And then hopefully when you go for a run, you're actually just hitting the spot nicely. Um, yeah, >> because I've seen and I even if if you took two riders and like you're saying, you line five riders up all the same V2 max, they're going to look massively different.
But if you reverse engine that and you take people that are say more modest, so you take five category five riders, that's maybe going to be exaggerated even more. And I'm wondering is there a point that you almost shouldn't even be running that the person should be walking to get that zone one zone two effect or is the is the stride dynamics just so different that a walk isn't like a entry drug into running? >> No, it's just not the same.
>> Yeah. >> Yeah. You've almost just got to like jump in the deep end and see if you can handle it.
Unfortunately. >> So even if you're like even if you're zone three like you know what I mean like there's a minimum >> for it to qualify as a run. I don't know you know the the Olympic walkers they have to have one foot on the ground at all times.
Like >> if you're running Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.
I mean if you're running at like six minute KS like if you're loading the tendons and and you're out there you got the shoes on and you're uploading your run stra and it's 6K. It doesn't matter if you're doing 4minute KS or 630s. It's like a still a run.
Um, >> what what point to run a walk though if it's seven minute case is a walk. >> I think some people could argue they could almost walk at seven minute pace. >> Yeah, like >> the speed walkers go to mad clip as well.
>> Oh, they go they go crazy they go crazy quick. >> Yeah, it's it's it's it's complicated, but the like the for sure the biggest thing I'd recommend to bike rider would be to do plyometrics in the gym. That's a really easy and your body and tendons react really well to that stuff.
Um, I mean, you still have to be careful and you don't want to be overdoing it, but just, um, learning how to skip doing that at the end, like doing that for five minutes at the end of a gym session or whatever, you can do it at home. >> And is there a good uh, is there a good kind of plyometrics resource on YouTube or anything that you've come across? Like what's the running equivalent of GCN where to think of?
Uh there's um I'm sure if you just typed in running skipping plyometrics, it'll come up with some some good stuff. It's nothing fancy. >> Cyclists have a few notorious weaknesses.
Like we're not good with hip flexors. >> And it seems like running stresses a lot of our weaknesses like weak glutes, overdeveloped quads, shortened hamstrings, tight hip flexors. How much does all that actually matter?
and the uniqueness of my we'll call these disabilities when I come into running. Do I need to be aware that okay I do have a tight hip flexor angle and this affects my training or this affects my off the run activities >> big time big big time. I think when riders when riders do their first jog, they might not notice the tight hip flexors or tight glutes, but when they try and go a little bit quicker, when they open up their gate and they try to yeah, finally get a bit of speed and when you're when you're in the running position, you really have to open up your hips in a way that you don't on the bike.
Um, and yeah, your glute med, your TFL, your like hip flexor insertion will all get stressed in a way that you're not used to. And so when people go for a run, they complain about their calves. And they also, you know, if they're going fast, they'll complain about Yeah.
their glute med, the TFL, and the hip flexor insertion because when you ride a bike, you're just not used to stretching that or using that. >> Yeah. Um, and unfortunately that's just hopefully the first one you do it'll be a bit sore then the second one will be a little bit less sore and then you'll be good.
>> That was one of those um asking for a friend jobs cuz anytime I open up my stride like if and I'm not even like it's not fast by your comparison but anytime I go under four minute kilometer pace or around that even for a couple of K hip flexors are just toast the next day like toast. >> Yeah. I mean, the good thing is they tighten up um very quickly, but they also release very quickly.
And all you need to do is get one of those stress balls, like a a trigger ball, put it on the floor, find your sore spot, and then just sit on it. It's painful. Um find the sorest spot, sit on it for like 2 minutes, wait, roll around on it, and then you'll be then you should be good to go.
Yeah. >> So, my routine for going on a bike ride is get up and I go on me bike ride. Is the routine for going out for a run a bit more complex than that?
>> Going for just a normal jog. Like I don't do anything fancy. >> There's no activation exercises.
>> No, not really. Like uh if I'm doing a session, very different story. Like I do a progression warmup um to like go through the paces like you would kind of like you would in a time trial um uh in a time trial warm up.
And then >> you spend a little bit of time zone one, zone two, zone three. >> Yeah, exactly. Exactly.
And then building up to the pace of the effort. Um, and then also you do plyometric stuff and skipping and things like this just to like fire the nervous system properly and and just to make sure that all the lazy muscles, your hamstrings, your glutes um particularly if you've like driven to go for a run somewhere, you've sat down for in the car for 20 25 minutes and then naturally your glutes and hamstrings aren't going to be firing properly. Um, and if you can, >> yeah, do some skips, some a skips, some lunges, you can just wake it up super quick.
>> Yeah, that's But there's no need to do band work and some of the stuff you see. No, sometimes some people have weaknesses and trouble areas where they really struggle to um, yeah, wake up their glutes properly. Um, and you could do band work.
I I should do more band work. Um, but luckily I have a for some reason I have a body that just is activated very quickly. Um, >> don't know why that is.
I'm getting I'm not young but for some reason coming cycling going into running. >> I'm 29. >> It's coming three zero.
This is brutal. >> But like the with the running training I'm responding like a 17y old. It's bizarre.
>> But is that training age? I wonder that because I started last year and I just made this like massive progression inside the first year and it's like I think that's just like beginners mindset very trainable plus your training age >> possibly. Yeah, for sure.
And I I haven't had that like worn down body that a lot of guys would have by the time they're 27 28. >> Yeah. >> After 10 years of running as a pro.
And the running culture just, you know, I have some friends who are some high level runners and the running culture, it's super old school. Like these guys are running 100 mile every week. You know, we've one coach locally and that was his like mantra 100 mile a week.
>> Like that's a lot of mileage, especially on a kid to be doing that for a decade. >> Yeah. Doing that doing that stuff through puberty and like you know into the late teens is it's um it's tricky work.
It's a lot of it's a lot of load for a growing body. Um, and I was kind of lucky that I kind of went into cycling, matured properly. Not to say that cycling's got the healthiest habits either, but >> um, >> yeah, I find myself in pretty good and I have a very healthy body now of the 28 29 to tackle this new sport.
So, it's cool. >> Cyclists are obsessed with zones. We're obsessed with power meters.
We're obsessed with structure training. We're even looking for new ways to measure this, like time wear. We're looking for respiratory expansion.
It just seems to be constantly something we're obsessed with. Does this approach transfer across to running or do we need to park that mindset because it actually can be a little bit harmful? >> Um, good question.
Very good question. Uh, like the beauty of running is that is a very simple sport and you don't have the noise that cycling has. You don't have this perfect power meter that will perfectly dissect your physiology.
I mean, okay, you can go onto a treadmill and you can do a V2 max test and you can see how much oxygen you use at different paces and like you can see your lactate threshold and things like this from from the treadmill stuff, but your your day-to-day training because you just don't have this pedal power meter to tell you how you're going. Uh it's it there's it's just there's way there's there's more variables going on. Um, and so it's harder to dissect training the way you can with cycling.
Um, which is great, but also annoying. Like I love cycling. The way you could just you could have your perfect zones and um, you know, you have your power test.
You just basically knew when you were going well and when you wet. Um, and then honestly then you divide that by your weight and then you'll be like, "All right, I can go this fast up this climb and that would therefore allow me to get this result or whatever." Whereas in running, it's it's almost like you have your V2 with your weight and then also your biomechanics.
And the biomechanics is different for everyone at different paces. And that's where it gets complicated. Imagine if in cycling you had like you people still have different pedaling efficiencies.
Um but it's more or less the same. like everyone's on the same device going doing the same ergonomics. Is that the word?
Um kind of. >> Yeah. >> Yeah.
I I get what you mean. I >> Yeah. I almost wonder do we do do we overlook that in cycling too much because like you can take two riders with two identical >> power profiles and they can have vastly different outcomes >> because there's a tactical component as well which is hard to neutralize for but there's definitely an economy and efficiency component as well like you know those riders who are just >> they're burning energy you can see it.
>> Yeah. Yeah. It's I'm surprised like when I was on all the pro teams that I was on, I never got my pedal efficiency tested or like how much power I was putting up through my hamstrings and glutes through the up phase and through the drive phase.
I'm surprised that wasn't analyzed. >> Um I guess naturally your body will create itself learn its most efficient way to create a what and then that should be personal and then therefore that's the way you do it. So maybe that's just the way it is.
or what's relevant in running. So when I go out with my Garmin 4Runner and I come back and I see this power number, is that just total nonsense? >> Not particularly.
It's not as accurate. Like I do see it was interesting like when I did the Valencia half um >> 61 >> Yeah. 61 6130 >> bananas.
And the watts that it said for that effort were pretty similar to uh the watts for my best ever power for an hour on the bike. >> That's very interesting. >> So that was kind of that made me laugh.
I think it was like uh but I I different um different platform different platforms gave me different uh power outcomes for the hour. >> But you wouldn't prescribe your training intensity as a percentage of that wattage. >> No, no, no, not at all.
>> So, how do you figure out your training intensity? >> It's more or less based off threshold um >> threshold heart rate, threshold pace. >> Thresh threshold pace.
Yeah. Um, but then that can change so much based off freshness, uh, conditions, heat. Uh, I guess the same for what's on a bike.
Um, like uh today for example, I did a session on the treadmill. It was really hot. So my my threshold or what I thought was threshold was adjusted based off RPA and the heat and humidity of the gym.
>> Okay. Yeah, I I can see that argument. But is it also is it not like training >> like using average speed as a metric on the bike because you know if you're doing a effort in a tailwind versus a headwind they're going to be two very different effects like if you think about the speed you're going as the external factor the cost of producing that speed would be your heart rate the internal factor why would you not use heart rates as a measure of intensity and go with and I I know all my friends who are runners do the exact same thing so No, no.
Yeah, I also >> I also use heart rate, too. Um, but for some reason, most people just use paces in running. >> Yeah.
Is it Do you think it's it's always been done this way? Trust me, bro. Or >> it's it's Yeah, exactly.
There's But there's not um like there's not science behind it. And that's the old school mentality of running. Um, but I have the ability to look at a session that that my coach sub prescribes and I say, "Okay, if I'm doing 305s for threshold that day, maybe I'm going to be on a good one and it's going to be three minute case or maybe I'm going to be on a [ __ ] one and it's going to be 310 or 315s.
" >> Yeah. >> What whatever it is that day, it it's just like I know what my threshold is. I know I I feel like I have this like understanding of what my threshold is now based off feeling.
>> Yeah. >> Um >> which is maybe >> let's go off that >> which is maybe runners are a little bit more attuned to how they're feeling because of the lack of definitely definitely most definitely. Yeah.
Um but then it's the same people still love chasing the time that they have in mind. Like in my case, I like to see uh if I'm doing threshold, I want to see bang on 20k an hour um because it's just a nice number to hit. Three minute KS.
Um if someone's listening to the podcast and they're still riding, but they also want to throw in a couple of runs a week, what's the best >> place to put them in? Because do you look to protect the rest day as a total rest day >> and run on your bike day or would you sacrifice, you know, say a typical working man or woman's format is >> train Tuesday, Wednesday, Thursday in the evening, some amount of intensity, 60 minutes to two hours if they're super motivated, longer stuff on the weekends, protecting Monday and Friday as off days or maybe one of them active recovery day. It's so it's so personal the sensor.
In my case, I would never run like on a hard workout day because I felt like if I ran after a workout, the gains that my body wanted to adjust to for the workout would then be adjusting to the running adaptations and that's not >> I think that makes sense. >> Making me a better bike rider. >> Yeah.
on my rest days because I had built up a level of running that allowed my body to like I'd do a 10k run and my body would feel good and I wouldn't have doms so it wasn't it really was a form of active recovery. Um >> so that's like a zone one zone two run for you. >> Yeah.
Exactly. Yeah. Yeah.
And my exertion of the run and my like muscular fatigue was the same as if I went for an easy ride. So if somebody's listening and they don't have the ability to do a I don't know a 530 a 6 minute kilometer effort in zone one zone two >> is the recommendation here nearly you should be just going for a walk because you can't go for that recovery run. >> You could no you could you could do your you could do that run on like an aerobic day where you're still doing decent training and then you could do a run but then maybe maybe you're too gassed from the bike ride and you just want to sit on the couch.
>> Yeah. >> Um >> and then it's nearly back to the argument, isn't it? I think our body does best from the research I've seen of simulating one primary adaptation per day and it's like if we're doing a tempo run and endurance bike ride are we send the kind of mixed signals there.
>> But if if I was to so on the training camps on a rest day you could I know pros would run early in the morning before breakfast um and then they would do their recovery ride after >> um which makes a lot of sense. So that's definitely my answer. Yeah, >> you would put it in like the day of the recovery, but then your bike ride, you would also still have to ride that day as well um to still flush out any um possible damage that you did to your legs in your run.
Um and then hopefully you benefit from moving your body in another way um and get rid of the doms that you run on that bike ride. >> What's the running board for, you know, when someone has all the gear and they have no idea what they're doing in cycle, we call them a Fred. Is there a running version of a Fred?
I don't think there is. But maybe runners should just call him Fred. >> Um, >> like is David Gogggins a Fred?
>> I mean, I think these days you just call them like uh like lots of people, same with cycling, lots of people got into into running kind of after the pandemic. Um, and so you call them like uh postco runners, I guess, >> like new runners. >> So my buddies are good runners.
to call them joggers. >> Yeah. Yeah.
Um and they they normally have all the gear. Um >> but what about these kind of celebrity runners? Like you see David Gogins running around with his top off.
Is David Gogggins a Fred? >> I feel like I feel like I have too much respect for him because he's done so much crazy stuff >> cuz he carries the boats. Um no, he's not afraid.
Uh yeah, I don't know. We don't have a name, but there should be one. And maybe there is one and maybe someone will comment something.
>> Uh I know you had a couple of not a couple you a good few questions from your community came in and before we jump into them I do have a couple of questions come in from our community because people were >> super excited to have you on. One of them is actually from a young lad I'm coaching. He was a runner.
He's 64 minute half age 20. Ask him does he have any advice for me trying to do the inverse of what he's doing. running a bike rider.
>> So becoming a bike rider from being a runner. >> Yeah. Um I feel like it's more simple going from doing that going that way.
I mean wait he he was a runner and then now >> he was he was a 64 minute half age 20. >> Okay. >> And now he's a cyclist.
So he's actually gone from cat four to cat one in one season. So this is his second season coming up. So he's had a good start.
>> That's that's what I did when I was 20. I went from runner to cyclist. So >> Okay.
So there you go. You're perfectly positioned to answer this question. >> All All I can say is just rip in.
Like if someone says that you're you're training too hard or like you know you're too committed, you're probably doing the right stuff >> and also learn how to go around corners. >> And that's that's the hardest part, the technical side of thing. And and at the end of the day, that was my biggest weakness in cycling.
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I can actually function when I get off the bike. It's honestly blown me away how big a difference that proper fueling makes. When I started fueling, right, I realized just how good I could actually feel on the bike.
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I'm going to put the link in the description down below. Really tricky. I've been diving into this a little bit in the podcast uh with some experts in the last few weeks.
And it's the idea of good bike handler, bad handler. like your generation, Sagan would have been the goat bike handler, maybe one of the best ever bike handlers. But to understand how Saigon became that bike handler.
We don't get good at going downhill around left-handers cuz it's not possible to ride every descent or every corner or every, you know, cobble classic in the world. What you do is you start to build patterns and you start to build a library that you can reference. So Sagan had a super advanced library with millions of templates.
So he when he encountered almost any situation, he was able to draw from that library of templates because he came from an off-road background, he'd experienced a lot of shift and just mucking around on the bike where he's like, "Hey, this corner is new, but it's the same camber as this corner. It's the same pitch as this corner. It's the same gradient as this corner.
" And his brain's able to piece that together in milliseconds. When somebody new comes into the sport, they're not drawn from the same depth of a precedent library as someone more experienced. So that manifests itself in a jittery looking newbie that doesn't know what's going next because they genuinely don't know what's going next.
So your your brain goes into this quite justifiable fear mode because it doesn't understand it's going into a dangerous situation with an uncertain outcome. So it starts releasing, you know, chemicals to slow the [ __ ] down. Chill out.
You're about to get hurt, which is all very reasonable. So they're two different it's you two two riders approaching the same situation but they're having vastly different mental processes going on in the same thing and I don't think there's any from the research I've seen there's not a way to shortcut that only doing the reps and building that library of precedents. >> Yeah.
Like when I turned pro um I'd never really raced downhill. I was in Australia and then I went to Europe, won one bike race and then was bro and I never raced down a hill bigger than 10 minutes. >> Yeah.
>> Um and so learning to go downhill the first time I ever railed a cl a downhill was essentially in the do in 2019. >> It's wild >> which is so dangerous. But like and I didn't have that library of and everyone else around me just would go down a hill at 80 90k an hour without any without even thinking.
And then here I was trying to learn how to go around these corners. I was really good at going left cuz in in uh in Australia all the crits you go left. But then every time we would go right I'd lose two bike lengths.
And then out of every corner we turn right, I'd have to do, you know, instead of doing 700 watts seated and holding the wheel, I'd have to do 12, 1100 >> full gas for like 10 seconds >> out of every hair pin. Imagine on every downhill on a in the >> in the do you have like >> sometimes like 25, you know, right-handers. >> And I don't I don't know this, but my guess would be that that this works the exact opposite what we talked about.
You're building this library of poor precedents. The time I took the corner and I had to sprint out of the corner. >> And then when you go into another corner, you're just referencing a prior bad experience.
>> Yeah. Yeah. Like uh like no practice is better than bad practice in that scenario.
So when you build bad habits, it's hard to rewire that from your brain. And then also if you have confidence issues on that corner, you're probably going to crash one time and then that'll just even f that'll throw you off even further. >> Yeah.
>> Um and then also in my case, I broke my >> um my right shoulder and my right hip. So my brain always wanted to uh >> go >> protect my right side. So leaning in on the right corner and leaning my fragile side of my body, my brain didn't like it.
So, um, it was a a recipe that I could never fix. Um, so yeah, apologies to all the pros who are stuck behind me on my right hand corners during my career. H another question on this uh slightly a different topic but and maybe there's an assumption built into this that isn't correct which I don't know but do you find it weird to switch to a sport that looks from the outside less financially viable regards to sponsorship where there's more emphasis on paying your own travel and other costs and less of an infrastructure that a pro team likely paid for before.
>> Yeah, it's completely different game now. Um there's trade-offs of every job. Uh in my case, I I haven't been able to generate um enough sponsorship uh this year to call it a full-time job um and be able to have my travel covered um to races and traveling a lot.
Um so I'm quite lucky with my partners this year that um uh yeah they're supporting me fully for multiple years. >> So you're Solomon >> I know. >> Yeah.
So now Solomon and and brand brands are starting to evolve that old school support structure. So brands are starting to support their athletes properly. Um I know in running and I know in a lot of the track stuff athletes are not supported properly but now road contracts like marathons and marathon stuff brands are looking after the athletes properly.
Now it's not anything like road cycling um but um I'm not going to lie like I've never been happier with the job that I have now. Like I'm not risking my life at a bike race anymore. >> That's the thing.
Um, and it's like there's trade-offs and and I think that actually bike riders don't get paid enough for what they do. >> Um, >> it's a scary scary game. >> So, if you were back at the start gates here and you're you're 17-year-old Jimmy, >> you've two roads that look equally viable, >> cycling or running, knowing what you know now, which one those two paths are you going down?
>> Cycling >> for purely financial or >> a whole series. >> Financial. financial for sure.
Um like maybe the biggest sporting contract I'll ever get was my first ever sporting contract at at F. Um but also like the what I learned as a bike rider being in the team, what I learned from the science point of view, the nutrition, uh meeting like traveling the way I did with with the team like it was pretty awesome. Um and just the depth of knowledge that I've learned.
Yeah. from from all the staff from like the and training in Andor with some of the best athletes in the world and then to be able to then come back to running nine years later with this yeah encyclopedia of motivation uh training intelligence and kind of the full like everything that I need to try and be a successful runner. Um I kind of feel like I've flipped it somehow.
What's the main thing you brought across? >> Uh, I think my when you're a bike rider, your resilience both mentally but also physically is huge. So, your ability to deal with high training load is like it hardens you.
Um, just all the training camps at altitude, it kind of rewires your physiology. Um, and then when you bring it into running to then only have to do 13, 14 hour training weeks, it feels very manageable >> both physically and mentally. Um, and I think just the like the cycling hardens you as a person.
I think at the in the pro circuit, particularly for a guy like me where I had the opportunities and I still had success, but a lot of the time I was chasing that contract and having not not a bad time, but a challenging time trying to stay afloat. um and bringing that across to the running world where it's not as it's still very um cutthroat and you have to perform but it's nowhere near as um >> yeah it's nowhere near as savage as cycling. >> Yeah.
>> Um >> will we rattle through one of the questions from your community? >> Um that was Yeah. I put in a story and I ended up getting 50 questions.
>> Not sure we'll get through all 50, but we'll do our best. Um, okay. >> There's any questions about my hair?
I don't want to hear it. >> Someone put a message on the YouTube uh and said, "What do I need to go into and ask the barber for to get a haircut as [ __ ] as yours?" I was like, "Cheers, bro.
" >> You got a good set of hair on you. People told me jealous. >> Solid.
Solid. Yeah. >> This This is a good one.
This is coming from a from a runner. So I think a lot of the questions I get from runners trying to go to cycling is they can't do the aerobic volume that they want to do because they get injured and so they see cycling as a tool to basically they can only do like an hour and a half of threshold work per week otherwise they get injured. Can I >> do another hour and a half on Zift?
>> Yeah. >> Um and then get three hours of threshold. So, this one here is, "What is the best way to incorporate Swift into my marathon training?
" Um, the best way to do that is you can use bike riding on your you could take volume out of your running through instead of doing an easy run on your easy day, do an easy ride on Zift. Um, de lo the legs that way. Or you could do a yeah, a threshold workout.
So like three times 15 minutes on Swift um like uh on the same day as your threshold running day. So you could do double threshold on the Friday, the run in the morning and then a threshold bike in the evening and then you have double um cardio threshold work. >> And how do you think about that crossover?
Like how it's obviously not one to one. It's not as effective as >> of course not. How do you think about percentage wise or how do you even have a conceptual framework for comparing the two?
>> Yeah, it's hard because you need to you need to try and do it and see if you get better. I mean some people they might start doing threshold work on the bike and they might just find that it changes the way they run too much. Like their mus their muscles might just operate different and then that gain that threshold gain cardio- wise might actually not translate onto the run.
Um but it's something that's worth trying. I'd even love to chat to maybe you have an answer for this but one of the training peaks guys might know if you are throwing in a couple of runs how do you grade them from a TSS point of view >> really odd >> because the TSS then feeds into your performance management chart which you know if you're putting the regular TSS in for it you're maybe overselling the contribution of running to cycling and now creating false assumptions around fatigue levels and tapering rates etc. When I was a pro cyclist and I would run on the Monday, I would do 10k and I would manually put in the tss has 30 tsfs for a 10k run for a 45minut run.
>> Yeah. So yeah, it's probably that's low. Like >> it's not much.
>> Yeah, you put a lot. >> Yeah, but I didn't want to like but then I I felt like it would didn't I felt like it would refresh me like it didn't feel like I would have stress. Then for someone else it might be 140 cuz they just are gassed and sore from it.
>> Yeah. And that's where I think the problem comes in then I think on your end where you underestimate it it's maybe not as much of a problem as if you overestimate it because now we're starting to make poor decisions around your fatigue management. >> Yeah.
>> It's tricky. >> This one here, best nutrition tips for runners. Um like in my case last week I did 210k of running.
Um, >> let's go, son. You done more run than I did cycling. >> Hey, I got I got nothing else to do here.
>> Um, uh, something you'll learn from cycling is um, when you fuel, you fuel like your most important window is right before, during, and then right after. I know that's sounds super standard, but the amount of people that don't actually do that properly is crazy. Particularly runners.
Um, like I would have a gel people like runners would look at me strange if I was at the track with them and I'd have a gel at the end of the session. They'd be like, "Are we finished? Are we still got we got more reps?
" And I like, "No, no, no. We're finished." I'm just like getting the carbs in straight away.
Like you see cyclists uh, you know, when they finish when they find this one year at the end of the race, they're they're putting down 120 grams of carbs of verbos right away. Um, >> so our runners, we're in high octane fueling mode in cyclone at the moment. 90 to 120 grams an hour seems to be norm.
>> The diet I don't want to call them diet apps. The nutrition management apps like I think 40% of the world are now using Hexus. >> Yeah, exactly.
>> It's it's per it's stripper feeding down to amateur level as well. Everyone seems to be optimizing all around 360 around nutrition. Are runners in that mode as well?
It's it's more complicated for runners because okay like uh you might find someone might be able to have 80 grams of carbs an hour during their marathon and then someone just won't have the gut for it um and they can only do 40. >> Um >> you think that's different to do you think that's because of the the bang bang pounding? >> Yeah, the bouncing.
And also a lot of that would also be that they don't train their gut during training. >> Yeah. >> Whereas cyclists are more in tune with that.
>> Yeah. >> Um >> and I actually think I'm at a big advantage because of cycling. The amount of carbs I've eaten.
>> Um it's kind of I've got an iron gut now. I can >> decade of practice. >> Slam whatever.
Like it's um I could have like yesterday on Sunday I did um 30k at 3:15s like harder like solid aerobic run. >> That's a brutal session. >> Um and I had four gels uh during the run and I felt completely fine.
Whereas another runner on the same level as me might have one gel and be like my stomach's cooked. Um, >> it's also shockingly depressing how fast like I couldn't run a single kilometer at your cruising pace there. Like this is a unique experience because no matter who I have on the podcast, >> you know, you could at least ride with them for a while.
Like, you know, my five minute power might be the same as their 20-minute power or something, but it's like, >> yeah, it's there's some difference between untrained and trend and running. >> I think that's not a reflection on my V2 versus your V2. It's just a reflection on my running mechanics.
I think um and one other question I'll I'll choose one more question I'll scroll through. Oh yeah. The question that I always get is how on earth have you gone from being a runner of a cyclist to then going into some massive weeks like for example 210k last week?
I'm I'm a cyclist. I don't have the bone loading or the tendon loading um of a pro runner that's had 10 years of running. >> Yeah.
Um, I'm still trying to work out the answer for this. >> Just as simple as you you won the genetic lottery. >> Yeah.
And like the way I land like I land quite perfectly with like if someone does the biomechanics chart on my the way I land like I land right onto my hips. I land right on the right spot part of my feet. So all the tendons are taking the load instead of the bones.
Stuff like that. Um, playing around with the shoes as well. And then also the food.
I think this food's massive. >> Since this video has been recorded, I've actually lost the weight. I've gone from 88 to 80 kilograms.
I can't actually believe it because the crazy thing is I'm eating way more than ever before. Some days my jaw is actually getting sore. I'm eating so much.
But I feel amazing on the bike. My power numbers are not quite back to my best, but I'm trending there very fast. But importantly for me, my big hesitation when I got back training was, yes, I had the time available to train, but I couldn't do it if it meant sacrificing energy, the focus to come and have highlevel conversations on the podcast.
And I have so much energy off the bike. Like, I'm coming in the door fresh after three-hour rides. It's wild.
I've never experienced it before. And I want you guys to check this out. I chatted with Sam Offair and his co-founder David at Hexus and they've hooked up an amazing discount code for the Roadman listeners.
So if you want to try Hexus for yourself, it's honestly the biggest leap that I've seen in cycling ever. Forget aerodynamics, it's fueling properly. So if you go over to Hexus Hexis.
live and you use the code roadman when you're checking out, you're going to get 25% off your Hexus plan. go just test it out. Trust me, it's a game changer.
How far do you think you can go? You know, when you get into cycling at the start, like I think every cyclist that's been ambitious in it to start. I remember getting a bike, been able to drop all my friends, started racing, started winning races, moved to France.
I'm like, "Holy [ __ ] the speed. I'm progressing. I'm going to win the tour.
" And then you hit a ceiling for me when I hit continental level. I looked around. I was like, "Shit, everyone's better than me.
This is my limit. Here's my ceiling." like tour to France not happening, world tour is not happening.
Here I am. You probably had that banging your head off the ceiling when you got up to world tour. You're like, "Shit, there's a bike handling component here.
This I don't know. I don't I'm going to win the tour here." And where are you in running in that evolution?
Are you still like [ __ ] kokei's in my targets? I'm coming for you, son. >> I'll get roasted if I say that.
But it is it is really exciting to be like like I ran 6130 off some pretty basic training and I I would consider the shape that I was in for that run. I was not fit to like not fit to like a high worldass standard that I know I can get to. And so then I think okay how much faster can I get?
I did no altitude. I did didn't really do heat training properly. I >> I was about to ask if you pull that full world tour altitude heat training.
Well, that's what that's what I'm curious because if I if I then do that, if I do two L shoe blocks and then go down to a marathon, could I break the Australian record for the marathon? >> What's that? >> And 206 20 something.
>> That's clapping. >> It's quick. Yeah.
Yeah. >> Um and like uh yeah, I I don't know. And that's why I think people are curious.
Um and combine that with my biomechanics, like I'm super efficient. And then combine that with also my like ability to be quite light. Um yeah, it's and then also for some reason I can do such high training load.
Um which is also a key part to being a good runner. There's some runners that have amazing physiology, amazing V2, but they just could never put in 12 good weeks for a marathon block. >> The ability to tolerate that load.
Also, what's going on? Like aerodynamics can't be zero. Like I go up, I'll have a coffee and watch a local park run going past and I'm like even the front runners I'm like >> you got to be giving away five seconds, 10 seconds, 20 seconds with that singlet.
>> 100%. And so I I was curious to see this first p like firsthand even in the in Valencia in the Valencia half. That was the first time where I ran with a big group like 15 guys at 21 22k an hour and on the bike when you're drafting behind someone at 22k an hour you get a good sit.
>> Yeah. >> Um and everyone would always say, "Oh, you don't get a draft in running." But you absolutely do.
100%. when when you're in a big group going that quick, I felt like I was running 15 seconds perk slower for for the same effort, >> faster for the same effort. Um like I it was incredible and I was actually playing around during the race.
I was curious cuz I could feel the draft being a bike rider. Um and then I'd pop out of the group and it was so much harder and I would pop back in. It was mentally just so satisfying.
So how strict you remember Dan Bingham went full like figure out what the UCI rules are >> now play right to the limit of the UCI rules like when he was involved in the Danish team pursuit team they came out for one world championships and they were just wrapped in kinesis tape because he'd figured out that kinesis tape at certain areas was actually faster than their skin hitting the wind and we've seen a trend this year which a lot of the world tour teams they haven't all done it but a bunch of the world tour teams have moved their radio into the front to close gap in the other riders and they take their off instead of putting in their back pocket. It goes down the same place to close the gap. How much could you go full daming mode on this in running?
Are they regulating strictly around this or it's just totally nobody's even considering these aerodynamic moves? >> Uh yeah, on the track people are deciding to wear um like road suits almost what look like a road suit. So in the 1500 um in the Olympics everyone was wearing tight clothing but before that it would never happen.
Two Olympics ago everyone was in loose shorts loose singlet. >> This is like 2009 pre-team sky here at the moment. >> Yeah.
And it's it's crazy even now like you you see guys doing a marathon in loose baggy shorts with a loose baggy singlet. Um, and some of that is their argument is like it is the traditional look. It's a statement.
It's like this is the way you meant to look. This um this is who I am. And then also it's a like thermore regulation thing as well I think too.
Like it's you have more wind touching your skin. Um so there is that side of it. But I mean the my marathon debut you will see me in a road suit for >> sure.
Exactly. Yeah. Dimpled arm sleeves.
Not to that extent. But um it's like my So for example, Salomon just released a new shoe and it's the first shoe to ever do a cover over the laces. >> Nice.
>> Um and they actually were the first. It's It blows my mind that another company hasn't done this, but they did like a testing in the wind tunnel with Swiss side. Um, and yeah, they found gains.
Um, >> this if you're an entrepreneur in this running space, like this is gold. Like Bond released the Vapor Plus shoe, which all the Pursuers were using. I got to say in 2011 or 2012, it's taken a decade plus for running to go, [ __ ] maybe we should try and make the Bond Vapor Plus shoe and just cover the laces.
>> Yeah. Yeah. Um and like my foot, if I'm running 22k an hour, my foot's moving like 50k an hour.
So, it's not nothing. >> Yeah. >> Um and it's a simple piece of um it's a simple change that you can make to a shoe.
And then also they have aeros socks. Salomon have aeros socks now. >> I was about to just say you want to go faster, get yourself some Aeros socks.
>> So like the release of their new shoe, the Fantasm 3, the photos were Aerero socks with the arrow cover of the shoe. It makes it look very different and a lot of the runners were very skeptical and like kind of looking at it like it's a like a marketing thing, which it does look different and it does turn people's heads, but there is a very practical reason as to why it exists. We definitely need a word for a running Fred though because I am going to be out with my Solomon Aeros socks and my AOS shoe cover running 545 kilometer bikes.
>> Yeah, people people I go when I was on at the gym today I'd walk I'd walk in with my um arrow shoes and then I'll put them on the treble and they just people look at me being like what is this guy doing? We got two gels there. Yeah.
Anyway, then then they see me run, they they go, "Okay, this kind of makes a bit more sense." But um but yeah, ERO is definitely getting considered more and more by um by companies, but you'll still see in all the major marathons, the pros, 80% of them are in baggy stuff. >> Yeah.
Uh just finish up, Olympics, is it on your radar? Uh >> 100%. Yep.
What's >> qualification looking like achievable? tricky. >> Well, I've still got to do um I'll have my debut marathon this year and I'll see what time I can do.
Um I'd love to try and run around a 207 208 maybe for the first one. >> Debut. >> Oh, I mean I'm doing this full-time as a pro.
Like I'm not I'm not here to >> try and do a bad time. Like I got no excuse in my opinion. If I'm a pro and I'm doing it full-time, I've got to shoot high standards.
So, >> um, >> and what's the still work off that like a standards? >> Yeah, I actually don't know the specifics of like I know there'll be two spots for Australia or something like that. I think I've just got to try and make sure that I'm in the top two guys in in Oz.
Um, and then that'll be for LA. >> Awesome. >> And I think I can do that.
I mean, >> I'm going to say that until told otherwise. Um, >> look, you're in that dream phase where you just don't know where the ceiling is. Like, you know, is it 207, is it 204, is it 202?
Like, you just don't have a clue. >> Yeah. I mean, like, the dream phase is awesome.
I mean, no one thought that I'd try and even become a pro runner. People thought I was crazy. And I told people in the middle of last year, I was like, I'm going to I'm going to run this fast half marathon at the end of the year.
I'm going to go pro and I'm like, it's going to be my thing. And then people were just like, "Oh god, what do you mean? You you're gonna do 100k a week.
You're gonna get injured and you're gonna get an office job." Um, >> you're like, "Look at me now, Dad. Look at me now.
" >> Yeah. Um, but yeah, that that's like it was always when I was 19, I wanted to be a pro runner and I wanted to make the Olympics. And so now I'm back in that same phase only 10 years later with all the cycling knowledge, all the cycling training.
So, and yeah, and now I have proper support with the sponsors and everything. So, um like I'm properly supported as a full-time athlete. I don't have to cut corners with performance.
Um it's pretty amazing the the support that yeah, I'm getting from Salomon and even the nutrition company that I just signed with Ministry. Um like it's it's proper setup. It's a very small setup compared to pro cycling, but it's um it's very professional and I can be letting you do your thing.
Yeah, that's it. >> H you've inspired me. It's quart 8 at night here.
You've inspired me to throw my runners and just >> chuck a little 5ker down before bed. H Jimmy, really, really enjoyed this. Uh stay in touch and best luck with the running season, man.
>> Cheers with the chat. Last.