a lot has come out on wash you know in the last decade with you know Armstrong holding his hand up and did you ever get an apology Bond who will come into the picture now we wanted to so I arranged a meeting in San Francisco um we signed confidentiality agreements I knew that would drive him crazy cuz he wanted to say it publicly but Le got the lead he got it by 5 Seconds from but I did want to see if he was going to be honest with me right honestly one of the telltale signs of doping is and now it looks like regon might even do it and snatch Victory every time arung would do a great performance that's where I decided man I can't even watch cycling anymore Greg Lamont had helped his team captain berar Eno win a fifth tour to front you know as somebody asked what what do you think of this Victory I said it's unbelievable I I couldn't watch it and I decided I couldn't go there because hey everybody and welcome back to the channel I have an absolutely incredible interview in store for you today one of the greatest bike riters in the history of the sport Mr Greg leemon two-time world champion three-time tur of France Champion he joins me today to have an alarmingly unfiltered conversation about doping his career and his life if you're new here my name is Anthony I'm a former lawyer turn cyclist turn podcaster based in Ireland my goal with this channel channel is to introduce you to the people and the ideas that are going to help you to optimize your health your happiness and your longevity please take a second to subscribe to the channel we're bringing new videos every single week and the more subscribers we get the bigger the guests are going to get now let's jump into the show welcome back to the romance icland podcast it is one of the greatest Riders to ever throw a leg over across bar The Living Legends Mr Greg leavon hi Anthony how you doing well good Greg Maybe to start out this podcast uh wna you know in a break from tradition I want to start out and chat a little bit about the dark times so take me back to 1987 you're recovering from a broken wrist as trano adriatico if I remember and you go back to the US to rehab It Go turkey hunting on a ranch which I think was co-owned by your father your brother-in-law here's some movement in a bush and I've never been hunting but I imagine basically the hunting first rule or possibly the hunting second rule is don't shoot blindly through a bush but your brother-in-law decides to shoot blindly through a bush and on the far side of the Bush it's not a turkey it's Greg leemon and talk me through what's going on at that moment What's going through your mind what's the sensations how did this all pan out well I think I mean I actually been shooting a shotgun at like competitive trap shooting since I was about 11 years old so I'm very very aware of gun safety and if you do hunt the number one rule is you never shoot at something you don't see and identify I've never been Turkey Honey myself and turkey is different because they Roost and they walk between feed and roosting so and then at times if you they will take flight if they're scared so it was it was unique and my brother-in-law you know never hunted before ever and so um when I was sitting in front of the Bush I'd stood up to see where everybody was at and he shot when I stood up as though as like I was Taking Flight almost like a bird and uh it was you know I didn't realize I got shot I just thought I actually looked down at my gun and thought my gun went off because it was so loud uh felt like yeah my gun went off and my this my ring finger um I could see was bleeding pet had gone through it and you know just like who shot I mean I I still was kind of like who shot and uh when I tried to talk um I had a right lung that was collapsed but I was like gurgling I had blood uh in my my um as I was speaking so I could barely talk and uh I kept saying who shot who shot and um my brother-in-law came down and he just freaked out he realized he shot me and he panicked he he I I mean I it's very vague but he tried to kill himself at the time he couldn't believe he started crying he just seriously couldn't believe couldn't believe what happened yeah and tried to kill there and Dan or was this something that happened later later it's very vague but no no there is like oh my God you know he's like I just imagine you what you know he just killed me to France winter my brother-in-law I can't surviv this and I saw him tried to take the gun and and uh load it and my uncle came up and I said toss I me I I I I I can't believe I could even think at that point but I said take the gun and toss it isolate it anyways he calmed down um but it was you know it's kind of I've watched movies where I see somebody shot and um I forgot the one movie but it was that one scene was so much like how how when you get shot you don't you don't get knocked across the room it just goes in you and so at first you don't even know your shot and uh but you do go into shock and you you do kind of go into U almost like a dream it's kind of like it just you know it's I I remembered I really do remember the details uh but at the same time I I'm fading energy is fading I just realized we were sitting there for uh my uncle called an ambulance and we were sitting there for not 20 15 20 minutes it seems like maybe it was not that long because this is 1987 there's no mobile phones to call an ambulance then so I'm assuming your uncle has to run across the fields to get to a landline to call an ambulance there's a there's a lag there yeah it was not too far away from this Farmhouse so uh but we sat there and and I just said said they're not coming they probably can't find us and I just said you got to we got to go and uh it lifted me out and we drove up to the top of the road and it was the fence was locked and I I'm going why didn't they just break it down but you know there three four police cars ambulance there fir Tru and uh I'm like they've been probably there for 15 minutes and I think back to it it's I was very fortunate there was a helicopter that um was actually there looking for at they they um there's a medic police helicopter that was there for another car accident and decided just to take a look um at the shooting accident and he and by chance he came by and if I didn't have the helicopter take me to the hospital I for certainly would have died because it was 45 minute drive um from where I got shot to uh the hospital I've heard people recounting stories when they've had traumatic accidents like this I had an amazing girl on the podcast Meg Fisher and Meg Colorado girl but tragic story I must share a link to the podcast with you she was driving she's been a multiple gold medalist par Olympian since which she was driving with her girlfriend at the time when she was 18 and the car flipped and her girlfriend tragically died and she lost her leg but she recalls this moment where everything happened so fast but for her it was like everything slowed down and she can recall the car tumbling she can record Vivid detail of Expressions on the face of her girlfriend the diner lady who pulled her out of the car did you have a moment like that where either in the helicopter in transit or in the you know hospital where everything just seemed to slow down oh yeah I mean that's what I said I don't know if I was in the field for 20 minutes or five minutes but it seemed like it was slow motion and then when I was when I was taken to the uh ambulance at the top of the property I I mean I knew they were you know I was probably fading pretty quickly but they kept asking for my address you know 74 74 745 Anil away I still remember it CU I repeated it a 100 times but they kept asking my address and then um but I I from there I got into the helicopter and I kind of remember taking off um but that was it then I do remember landing and kind of slowmo from the helicopter kind of like you see in the movies and then they shov me into the doors and uh the probably instantly the took a I punctured a lung into a punctured uh hole into my lung for my collapse lung and it's the last thing I remember but it was I I remember I I don't remember the the face like that I mean she's she she's remembering almost exactly like when I got shot this five minutes where she's tumbling um I could see that I mean it's it's amazing what your brain can take in you described yourself as a eternally optimistic person was your mindset optimistic for a comeback in those early days or was it purely survival you know one of the things that I think that people understand too and I maybe it's at our period but you know you make a choice and move to Europe and and you know get married and you got to make a living and um you know as an athlete people don't realize you it's like that's your whole life but it feels like your next paycheck is everything and and so it's not just if you're riding bad at the time nobody gave you a break and um if you had an accident like this typically you're done with cycling and um without kind of saying okay maybe he can come back and rehab and and uh at the time it wasn't I wasn't thinking of that right when I got shot uh but I would say after my first tour win u i was pretty down that winter and really was you know winning the tour this dream um and fighting for it and then not really getting credit for not getting that satisfaction of a happy team behind uh the victory really impacted me and and so when I got shot it was kind of like I wasn't certain I wanted to race again at that point um I just when I did go back to Europe that's you know actually that winter I I really contemplated I maybe taken a period off and then I got back to racing I felt better got you know into racing um but when I got shot I was like I don't know if I can do this again uh that was just the first 3 four weeks but a month later I got a letter from uh Bernard tapi and basically said you're uh we had a great you know three-year relationship actually two years um but you're fired and he let me go so even that didn't impact me until I started getting healthy and all that then I realized what am I going to do to make a living and uh uh so that's part of it you know I had a bike company I started of that time so I was feeding that and I at that time I wasn't making a lot of money not compared to athletes today and so part of that stress was not just their hunting accident um it was how do I survive what do I you know how do I manage a bike company that I'm not even racing I mean and I'm not even managing it so uh my dad and another guy were were were doing it so it was the stress for that was incredible but after about you know when I started riding again in June I decided know I got to you know the I got to I want want to try at least see if I can come back the good thing is naively I mean and and my the trauma surgeon that um operated on me at the press conference she said well there's nothing going to limit Greg from coming back you know we didn't remove his lung his lung's still there his heart's still there and uh he'll be fine so I took that and I thought oh yeah five or six weeks of training I'll be good but I was very naive uh because I had lost uh I went from 149 P 148 PBS to 118 PBS I don't know how many kilos that is but at least 10 15 kilos of muscle mass um yeah I read somewhere you lost 30 pounds of muscle yeah yeah and uh 70% of my blood volume and my right lung never really fully expanded back to its normal size but I think because I wasn't told of all those limits that might have been it it helped me kind of go okay it's just a matter of time and uh because if I would have known even if I knew that the lung had not fully regained its full capacity that would have been good excuse to go I'll never come back to where I was before um am I trying in vain to to come back you know what you don't want to do is it's very hard to go from winning the Twitter France to a pack filler I you know it's very difficult and uh but I really believe that I was nothing was wrong with me and and I think that really gave me the patience to endure a couple years of of of I call it a nightmare because I was at a pack filler not even pack filler the end of the pack um getting dropped in most races especially 1988 actually and I I go back but did you have markers then Greg did you have like you know we obviously you had no power meter then that didn't come in until you know mid90s when we started seeing the emergence of srms but I'm sure you had markers like you know your local climb what was your PR on your local climb did you come back in as good a shape as you were previously or were at a lower level or was the case that maybe the bunch had moved on as we've seen with the likes fr Bernal coming back from injury that maybe they're back to doing their previous levels but now yonas and Pacha are just you know 6.9 watts per kiler for 22 minutes up the maray Blanc the other day it's like what's going on yeah I don't believe I don't believe that either I don't believe you just I I have defin theories on that one ber now ber Bern now's going to take more time he he had a a very serious injury and it's going to take more than a year of of time and this what I was saying for me I I think that I part about a survival but I came back too soon um I I you know I wrote a book on training in ' 85 it's all based on physiology and I had that background uh but I was forced into racing before I even built a decent level I was not as good as physically as I was at 14 years old before I got into cycling so the but the the the reason is when I got let go um no team would talk to me and I think the two teams that my dad talked to was of Carrera and PDM were the only two teams and and I didn't want to go with Italian team just didn't want to learn Italian and so I went with PDM and their mandate was I had to be racing by the end of the year but this is insane because we're looking at this is 1987 was the hunting accident you're the sort of France champion in 1986 you're turd in Juro and second in the tour in 1985 it's not like you're an underdog it's like the best writer of the generation you've already put your stamp on potentially been one of the big Riders alongside obviously F and heo which we get into their stories and how they intersects with yours but you're not an underdog here it's not like a neopro with no results has a bad crash and okay it's career over go get a job in the bank it's already a Big Brand what's going on in the sport that no one wants to take a risk on well that's there's a difference in the sport because there wasn't I'd say that a lot more teams have better uh understanding physiology you know at the time when I was racing every believed everybody belied except me that you were done at 31 there was no scientific reason for that but they the budgets really tight and uh you know I am shocked that there was no interest I would still I say that um but they nobody wants to take a risk and and you were at that time you're as good as your last race truly if you weren't racing well you're done and even you know maybe even you know you know had to go start his own team he wasn't riding well with Rena and he got a little battle with with Gart but he had to go start his own team to really um have the time to recover from a knee knee surgery that he had but I wasn't I didn't have that ability I was U always an outsider even to try to put my own team together it was um not possible and uh but at the time I just say it was a different environment I think people teams would go okay it's worth you know maybe your pays red reduced but it's worth uh investing the time to see if you can come back because there aren't that many people there aren't that many countries that could PR TR France winner and uh that was part of the stress too is like okay you know you go from winning and A team's you know making conditions on you that you have to be back racing I I went back and did a race I did a criterium um in Belgium I got paid a little start money and I did one kilometer I did one lap 100K 100 laps and uh faked that I had a flat but I I served my purpose and then I did another race two weeks later grandp for me and I made it 20ks um but the the crazy thing is I look how injured I was and how bad I I mean really physically I I can't even imagine where my hemoglobin was really at that time in my iron stores it was limited but uh I got to the tour of irel in ' 87 I got 39th place and so I go how I was it's crazy and I truly believe I had I just had I have really good genetics I have a very high V2 Max and I think it's helped me tremendously um where I think a normal person Rider that with maybe not as high of natural Talent would have would have might not have come back because it would have been too too too difficult yeah I think that's a nice segue to Circle back to the start because you do have one of the highest ever recorded V2 Max I've seen it reported as 92 do you think that was you know I look at athletes now and so I chatted to a guy you might even know him called Michael Vin a few weeks ago on the the podcast Michael was 30 years old riding his bike fulltime basically people saying to him like what are you doing pack it in like you're a 30y old riding your bike full-time but he was putting out pretty good numbers and he was playing one of these online gaming platforms like zift called my woosh and team UAE seen his numbers and they've signed him and he wrote like lier and stuff this year his teammates of Pacha moved them to shirona yeah it's a crazy story but it got me yeah I just have on the podcast last week it's wild I was like so how old is he when he turned Pro 30 and was he ever racing on the road before he raced on the road but not like a you know just local level in New Zealand but just but it was performance on zift or a platform that they could see his power output yeah my wosh they were monitoring his power output and thought like this this guy's down like you know 6.5 wat tequila or whatever he's doing what the hell and then they investigated asked him to come over for further testing and then they offered him 2-year contract and so he's 31 years old but it got me thinking cuz I'm sure you've experienced this as well over here in Ireland where I'm racing you see these kids who are you know they're 23 and they go full-time on the bike and they're trying to make it pro but it never quite happens and then you see them at 28 29 30 and they're still fulltime and you're like okay dude the time is gone like you're not getting that Pro contract you know you got to let go of that dream you got to grow up Peter Pan but this guy kind of defies that advice where you're saying you got to grow up because he pulled it out with a bag at that age but anyway to Circle that into my question but maybe he maybe he really wasn't fully dedicated to bike race at the time but his numbers were there and I think that proves I I did I did like tap the tour 2007 I was um how old was I 46 years old and I um I started using my SRM that's I did another V2 Max I had same same amount of liters of oxygen 6.
4 and so as when I was racing now divide that by my weight it wasn't at 92 V2 Max but the the oxygen intake was the same and my power output was close I was doing 380 up a climb I'm talking 380 for 40 minutes 30 40 minutes not you know that's what I you got to be careful about even 6.5 Watts I hear this people understand that to qualify and compare Watts I did 430 Watts at but a climb before the doof for 20 minutes it's sustainable output for $45 that's the that's kind of the the the it's 45 minutes to an hour how long you can sustain it but I was doing 30 390 Watts now I did late tap to tour and there's 10,000 Riders it was uh plat Bay six climbs um I got 66th Place uh and I'm going holy [ __ ] then you could do a calculation there was a calculation of the minutes you save per kilo and I figured at 46 years old I would have won the race had I been at my race had I been at my had I my race weight at my race sweet so it's really if if you go back to your I said that to zift I said uh uh uh come on Eric Lynn who's the founder um I said yeah I'll race again he was but you got to do a Clyde de you do you have to do it where I'll race but I have to go back calculate it at my racing weight when I was when I was racing then I would do it because you know what you need now Greg this is a body of mine was involved in inos in coach but not the inos cycling team inos have another branch which is these pedal powered boats have you seen these yeah oh yeah yeah yeah so these guys put out the craziest wattage I've ever seen but it's not power it's just power is it's still waight until you get on plane until you get on plane but they're but they're not optimizing for weight so like my buddy sending me on power files of guys who can do 520 Watts for 20 minutes and I'm like that can't be real and he's like no it's real but he's 94 kilograms so the what per kilo he's doing 5.2 or whatever it is which is still pretty good but it's not yeah you're right with the with a a a sailboat type design with the uh what do they call it the um the foil underneath yeah you once you get on plane it's going to be the drag to start but once you get on plane it shouldn't make a difference you're right but you know that's the hard part even for when I stopped racing uh in '94 2 years later I'd gained 40 lbs and uh but I when I did what fat testing when I was racing I did both pinch test and underwater underwat these dead on accurate I gained 27 pounds of muscle mass when I got done without weightlifting at all and so the idea of ever coming back I don't some Riders are just genetically skinny but I think my genetics had I not been racing I would have been 180 PB person and not fat um uh so I was 190 you know 20 7bs I I I wasn't it looked like I was fat because I got so big but I was there's a lot of muscle mass and that's that's one thing that you have to really be careful about today is you know when I was racing I I raced at a very low body fat you know 3% at the end of the tour but I would start the season at most 7% try to come in at 5% was Paul kley and now today I I see everybody's kind of gone oh they're doing so many watts on a climb you know 6.
5 watts per kilo up the Mari Blanc but I I would say historically you could have looked at until say eight or nine years ago Riders were kind of the same they you know they got to low body fat their muscle mass was basically the same but I think the last 10 years this dieting they're going in such a catabolic state that they're actually losing muscle mass and had I've been racing today I probably been racing 10 pounds lighter so my wattage output would be the same up a climb but my watt Pila would be that much higher that's why I said it's very diff very dangerous to equate these Riders going faster up a climb with doping I don't see that right now honestly I look one of the telltale signs of doping is your power curve to RPM and right now you're seeing all the guys RPMs are 85 to 90 at most 95 RPMs on the climb that's really good if you start seeing RPMs of 100 RPMs or more either it's a motor or they're juicing so much that their power outputs at 450 Watts so as you when you're riding up a climb you know they looked at the hour record going back to Merch this is back when bman was doing it and I started using the SRM in uh uh 1992 but they did a calculation with aerodynamic drag with Eddie Ms and he averaged about 420 Watts um for for for the for the hour record so did Chris bman so almost every Power every hour record has been 42430 but every hour record was set between 102 and 103 RPMs and that's because the torque and the revolutions is optimized for that power output and so when you heard like Armstrong improved this pedaling stroke I mean that's [ __ ] I mean and you'll see that today when you look at the climbs everybody's climbing a very similar RPM and his back to historical back in to historical and I started using SRM I started increasing my RPMs because there's a b big misunderstanding in the ' 80s pushing the big gear develop more power totally opposite uh and you can see I print way too big of gear but uh I know the optimum RPMs per wattage output and when you're climbing uh see if you're doing 400 watts on the flats it's going to be around 100 RPMs it's used about 10 RPMs lower on a climb and so I see riders today doing very normal RPMs which means they're in the realm of natural power output but the difference today Riders are 3 or four kilos lighter all across the board because they you're starving themselves to death so I'm very optimistic about the new crowd here U The Young Riders um so I do think comp are difficult to make though aren't they like because I was looking at the vam figures on the the reported par weight on the Mari Blanc on the first week of the tour for Yus of 6.9 wats per kilo for 22 minutes and that's coming in at a vam of over 1920 which historically we haven't seen vam figures and vam for anyone listening who's it's an Italian acronym you probably know what it is Greg but it's basically vertical Ascent meters translated so 1900 as centimeters is what you would climb in in Nar if you were to maintain that speed going straight up here but we haven't seen those sort of figures since pantani when he was climbing at 900 to 2,000 the pontani in the 90s and in Armstrong period I'm saying when I race if you look at us we off I was not fat I mean I was 5% at the end of the tour it's 3% but I look muscular compared to today's Riders and so if you took me at you know I 5.9 watts is what I would do at my kilos let say it at sustainable output had I lost five kilos right now my Watts for kilo would be close to seven so it's very important to realize the physiological changes that have happened in the last couple years with riders you don't see you look at vegard he's like a prisoner of war go back to our racing period even the 90s with pontan years it's it's abnormal it's not even natural the way the rider I feel bad for them but I have tried to calculate that because I'm a skeptic on everything and really I am I I I sometimes can't follow cycling because I sometimes don't believe it I truly believe Motors were used to you went a lot of big races until very recently it was a real deal and I I look at it now they're doing 65 bikes deal you don't see bike changes like you did five years ago how could it be that either the equipment was so bad Shimano was making really bad equipment but I would see five when I was do Europe i' would be see five bike changes by Riders and it pissed me off I I would see and I knew I know what I've ridden the motor I've seen what's happened with it and I know Insight I I I know who I believe was using it I'm not going to say that out loud because I the crazy one is that I look at is the kepel mure in Torah Flanders where we have Bo and Canela and boan is literally sprinting full gas and Canela goes away from him seized on the kep mure up to the cathedral the camera pans out and then it goes back and you see the Gap inside 300 meters is gone to 20 seconds 30 seconds an unnatural size Gap in that amount of period of time unless boan had got off the bike and stopped but he was still sprinting full gas that for me was a moment and I've talked to some friends who were you know racing at the time in Flanders that year and you know there was a lot of people felt there was a motor use there yeah I've talked to Pros that know you know I've talked to Pros on a team that knows they were used in this same team um it's hard to say it outright because until you have the motor and the bike you know it's here say I don't want to get sued but another another see it again see it again you need to ad again on that but if I if I I'm going to say it's not going to be popular but if you look at Chris fr's Mount Von 2 they released the file I could I believe I could show you it's there's so many unnatural things there now if you go back today and watch some of the performances that period the RPMs are insan insane and remember there is no efficient nobody's efficient at 110 RPMs up a climb ever and the acceleration that was taking place on bom two you could watch the one where they match the file to the his wattage output to vom 2 you can see him accelerating and the wattage is coming down dramatically uh that should be going up or maintained at a very high level and so it really bothered bothered me and I I we we talked with the police and I I'm really they got a new president David leeran and he took the motors very seriously and I look at it today there is no evidence of that um there are no high RPMs there not these massive bike changes and the bike changes were it's Insanity because I said either Shimano and these component manufacturer were producing such crap which we know is not the case there's no reason to have five bike changes in or six bike changes in in a in a in a stage it was it's I've watched these races and I'm you know I was working with Eurosport at the time I just wanted to scream just like this is [ __ ] this is crazy so I've got a question for you on this one Greg why do you care why is it why have you taken these battles on from the Armstrong one to speaking publicly about Motors to analyzing cadences you know we have Sean Kelly in this part of the world and he just goes quiet when the conversation gets controversial about dopen I've never heard him Express an opinion on anything controversial and that has maybe in some quarters the criticism could be leveled at him that it's compromised his integrity but it has allowed him to maintain a very driving and profitable media career you've decided not to take that approach yeah but I understand it's like this the problem when you're uh he's a commentator he's not a journalist let's say he's a commentator so that's his livelihood you know he's looking at David Walsh all the others are going to take that on um and he would not have a job probably if he did it um and so that's the the difficult thing and somebody's going to do commentating so I can't judge junk Kelly at all but for me and I had this idealistic I uh version of cycling when I raced and um but and I'm not an idiot I I I feel bad for any professional that turned Pro in the 90s when EPO came in I mean I I am so grateful that I loved cycling so much I was so passionate about the tour that I didn't have to turn pro because I don't know what I have done really I'm not going to say I would have been better than everybody else and would have just qu cycling CU I don't know I wasn't I wasn't never forced in that position but when I was racing at the end of my career EPL made a dramatic impact on my cycling career and I so there's my own performance like in 1991 I look back and I I was in better shape at that tour than I was I was like in 1986 I could tell cuz I didn't have a power meter at that point but I had a vesa that I did motor pacing on and I've never gone that fast behind for hours behind or at least like I just simulate a climb for 45 minutes and you know I was doing 85 kilometers an hour that's maxed out um but and I could you know you know when you're riding well and I took the lead right away and I look back now and I I did a 70 km time trout I was 8 seconds behind inan 8 seconds that's it and then indan has been I don't I like the guy but they're all linked to con and I I look at at that point I mean I really I think I got I lost that tour because of epo at the same time I had a friend that was on U PDM at the time and Johanna ster married to American woman and we got a call and my wife got a call middle of the night I think it was 1990 uh going to 1991 um he died of a heart attack next to her and we can't say it was EPO I think but she indicated it was probably related to some kind of drugs and then at the end of my career I'm Philip cido um he died of a heart attack he went to an Italian team so it wasn't just doping it was killing people and the Riders are sometimes treated like um Lab Rats they're giv stuff they don't even know um I remember hearing about Riders giving anti-depressants I mean I've taken anpress you try to get off them you can go into severe depression you could literally feel like you're dying and so these guys are just given whatever and I always we seen it in the pelaton H recently Greg like we've seen uh like drugs like Tramadol widely abused in the Pro pelaton and if you read the label on tramol if anyone taken traod that's listen to the podcast read the label it's an opioid and you're not meant to operate heavy machinery like [ __ ] if you're not meant to operate heavy machinery you're definitely not meant to Bunch Sprint on it at 80k an hour leaning on somebody but what's Insanity what is an opiate going to do for your cycling you're going to kill the pain it's insanity this why I said the Riders are taking something but somebody unethical is tell telling them to do that I could guarantee you I would I would love to see data on take an opiate if if would improve your performance but bike riders will follow they're like sheep and they'll get told if if this helps it's a nature of comp competition if they can get an edge they're going to do it that's why it's really important for really good controls I mean I'm not expecting this sport ever to be 100% clean but I go back to always what I had tried to convinced or talked to the W at one point 2006 after uh Floyd was busted was to kind of work on plea Bargains where Riders if they got busted they could they gave up all their sources um you know they could get back racing right away and I I remember watching a documentary on the front days um uh uh uh which operation PTO operation PTO yeah and I always heard the story about Dr mabo uh he was always referenced in you know hear these horror stories Dr Mao and I think gimar talked about him um Gard my coach sir Gard in 1971 he took the lead of the of the tour and this was the his doctor at the time he made it to like two two days ago his knees gave out who knows it was the if it was cortisone whatever but that same doctor was treating cyclist in N 2006 and so the same doctors Ferrari's there you know Kone Ferrar I mean my wife was in Hungary when with the inventor of the Hidden bike and guess who calls him at midnight Ferrari looking for six more bikes so um it's these guys are all there and had you eliminated those guys um they they a huge uh role in in uh in influencing writers and the fact is EPO makes a huge difference in performance and that's why it's it the biological passport and really strict controls my hope is just that you limit the amount and so that riders that are clean or somewhat clean can not sacrifice their health and and win and I guess I like right now I just love watching it because the sport right now is what it used to be when you were 19 you didn't your V2 Max didn't improve when you're 26 it was there you're 18 19 you got pogar Bernal um all these writers at a very young age they're showing their talent I'm certain if I did the tour France at 21 I probably would have done as well at when I was 25 26 at the time the belief oh you're too young to do it but you're not physiologically uh you're you're I probably could have an 18 years old 19 years old um so but I do see things and I'm not saying it's I'm not claiming it's I I don't know you'll never know the inside of what's going on they're always going to be taking what they think is The Edge one of the things that you know the irony is ketones everybody's talking about the benefits of ketones well guess what very indepth research came out ketones lower performance by 2% so there's no proof that those improve improve it's the nature of an athlete isn't it where they're always looking for an edge whether it's you know true legal or illegal and it it shows it's very insightful to the mindset of an athlete and why they're maybe not the best person for Cho public to mimic their patterns behaviors or habits because the lens they view the world through is performance to the exclusion of Health longevity and happiness you're right that's actually nailed it right there and but I do believe writers when they start cycling like me they do not start cycling with the idea that they're going to be taking a whole Pharmacy of drugs and I think think that was the case in the 90s and and in the first decade of this uh Century um Riders were guinea pigs and I don't I think some writers have no problem but I think people that normally wouldn't have done it cheated I it impacted their career they're not happy with it so and it's just the nature of of of the sport but I do believe drug tests are getting better I do believe the biological passports really limiting the ability to rampantly cheat and I go back to why I believe in this generation right now is um tibo Pino suffered a lot in his career but he has released in all of his data um since he's training all his wats he almost won the Tour in 2019 and that means if he was I'm just telling you a good sign is how the French are performing because they have they just have a higher level of scrutiny their risk of really blowing up the sport by massively doping is is lowered but tbop knows always been a a a a benchmark for me um the secret to kind of really knowing who's cheating and not is if we could start doing standardized VO2 max test that are public or that are at the UCI because you'll never know really if somebody's cheating if you don't know their VX you can measure the wattage you can measure all that it correlates um but if you're measuring your V2 Max enough if you're taking in hand blood if you do it young enough you hope they're not doping at that I haven't had that planned and you could track that and you could see when there's a jump in your your oxygen intake very EAS we start losing a little bit of the essence of competition then it's like Vincenzo NE wanted to see the removal of power meters if we know a competitor V2 Max and we know our own V2 Max that starts to influence tactical decisions from directors no that's that's the UCI level that's like part of your biological passport okay private medical confidential yeah I didn't say Le private medical it's part of the it's part of your biological passport uh but I don't believe that either um I I think that it doesn't matter I mean it it' be more psychological for the rider who doesn't have the talent to be going um [ __ ] I don't have as good enough Talent if you're really talented you don't care what it is it's like hiding your water just like tibo Pino it's you know doesn't have to be right at the time I you wouldn't want to have a live TR a data transfer of of your your friend but but just your W doesn't matter because even you're most talented your body goes through changes you could you could have the best values but one day you could be off and a guy with less Valu is going to drop you so it's not always just the physical uh superiority I suppose we can't really talk about doping and fairness and especially to one of the most prominent ever American athletes without mentioning one of the other most notorious American athletes there was a point in the evolution of this story where there was potential to have a passing of the torch relationship from one Great American champion onto the next coming American champion from leemon to Armstrong it didn't pan out that way what was the first warning sign for you to say hey this isn't going to be the passing of the torture relationship that it had the potential to be well I was actually a big I was really excited that he came back um but the crazy crazy thing of looking back is um we had dinner with his wife and um Armstrong you know we were living in Minneapolis at time three miles away with uh Chris Armstrong's mother and Fon and he just was coming back and never entered the tour last T was 35th or 36th place and I asked you know what's your goals and he said I want to win I'm I want to win didn't say I want to I'm going to win the Tour of France I'm going to win and I'm like wow that's good what's your you know after that but after that he go well I want to win I want to win three tours um I went three tours it was bizarre and I I drove away with my wife and I said God that's good for him but man that's op really wishful thinking and then about a month and a half before the tour I got a call from a friend who was on K direct of cofed and he said he heard overheard this crazy story that Eddie MKS asked Armstrong what are you going to you know how you going to do in the tour and uh he said I'm going to win it and uh he said well that's fourth place in tour of Spain you know that's that's one thing but wi the tours another thing is now I've got something that nobody else has and you know that was that that that was it it's undetectable that's the first thing I heard but I laughed it off I I didn't think much of it and uh there's always rumors like that people you know when I was racing as a junior I had a scar on my calf uh and the joke was that I had uh a kangaroo muscle for some reason somebody came with Ang muscle inserted my Cav so there's always like if you're better than everybody else uh everybody else has their ego they think they're just as good so they got to figure out why they had that Advantage but anyways but but it must have been widely used in 99 because Armstrong you know I remember he burst onto the scene for me anyway with that prologue win in 99 I know he' been for in tourus ban as you referenced but that prologue win was like announced himself to the world but 98 and I and I teared up I teared up for I literally this is why I said this is like I have no intentions I have I do not I don't I'm not jealous I'm not a jealous person at all uh and uh I recognized his struggles after cancer and I was absolutely behind him and I did a cycling tour uh like a vacation tour that year the Tour of France of 99 met him and you know came in I said man if you time TR like you did there's no reason you can't win this and and we had a talk and he ended up winning and was was great and I was excited for him the following year at the Tour of France um we had a team reunion 10 years after my first Tour of France Victory um and uh with the team Z and it was in um where we at Korean Le brav which is near the vamp 2 and um the mechanic that I hired and worked for for he worked for me for seven years was there and uh in front of 12 of my cycling friends who weren't cyclists at all I mean I mean they were cyclist they had no clue of anything in cycling but he went just said you know Tyler Armstrong with Ferrari they were with Ferrari and and um the the weeks before the tour the month before the tour and and then he he told privately to us that you know he was positive 19 1999 and and they bribed the UCI and they 500 Grand and he got his positive removed and then he just said they're doing every every drug and um and and when I had this information and I'm like holy [ __ ] then it became almost impossible to look at it's kind of like you see somebody you you're all optimistic you're all form and then you realize well this guy's nothing what he's claiming he is and uh the next day I was supposed to do a follow the tour with the tour to France and uh I decided I couldn't go there because every time arung would do a great performance you know what who's the journalist would always call me first what do you think and I just said I I don't even want to be question I don't even want to be in front of a journalist to have to answer honestly because I don't want I I'm just not the person that wouldn't honest answer honestly but I did get called and I just kept saying what can I say that's that protects my Integrity but but also um you could read it both ways and I said you it it's you know somebody asked what what do you think of this Victory I said it's unbelievable so it's believable or you can take it two ways unbel for me it was not believe uh and so that was you know that's where I decided man I can't even watch cycling anymore I I couldn't watch it and uh the following year when he won David Walsh was almost exposed with Ferraris um uh training with Ferrari he Armstrong heard about it preempted him said he was using Ferrari for training for the hour record but anyways and David had tried to call me and call me I just I said I said you're looking in the right you're looking in the right uh place um anyways and by chance I just without looking at the number I answered the phone it was David Walsh and I said hey David uh he said Greg I want to get a quote I want to talk to you about the victory I said I don't I I don't have anything to say I I don't I said my mom told me if I don't have any good name don't say it at all so I said really it's I don't have any good thing anything good to say so I'd prefer not to talk he said well okay okay uh would you think that his comeback if he's clean would be the greatest comeback in the history of sport I said absolutely and then he said well if it isn't what if it wasn't like he says and and I he said said well I I said well it' be the greatest fraud so it became my quote even though the first part was with David and I just answering you know the opposite and uh boy that just man I got called Armstrong called me a week later and threatened me um the irony is he said why' you call me a fraud and I said I didn't I said if you're clean you're the greatest comeback in the history spce he admitted that he was a fraud to me so um but that became um a really difficult period because I had a thriving bike business track um I was threatened that was going to shut down I thought okay let's I'll just buy my time that's going to end he's going to get caught and um never happened but it became clear that I was the enemy to truck and and um because I wouldn't go along I wouldn't be part of the support group and uh the AR also highlights at that time how how much cycling took off in a commercial sense because we have you on one side one of the greatest writers in the history of the sport having you know retired with a completely untainted reputation given a quote we have Armstrong who who has come through you know he's a post Festina Affair Rider with some quite dubious allegations around him but the money and the financial interests have gotten so big in the period between you retiring and this Armstrong period of dominance that it just it's impossible for anyone to nearly break this bubble of Silence without doing massive Financial harm to themselves we've you know Bell Helmets putting pressure on you tri putting pressure on you and it's yeah it's all just self- serving Financial interests yeah you find the world's driven by that though um you know I I would have really profited had I gone along with it um greatly um but it was just something that was so black and white and had I not been told that had I not been told at this dinner that what was happening I wouldn't have I wouldn't have an inside proof I wouldn't have an anything to really it would have been just innuendo it would have been just kind of um rumors would you not have guessed this considering it's 99 and ftin is 98 and you probably are still quite well connected in the Pro pelaton at that point no I wasn't actually I was not um after I got done with cycling because the Epi just decided not going to follow it I was so happy and quoted as the best in in leip in 1998 this could be the best thing that happened to cycl ftin I every thought it was going to be the worst but I thought it needed this so I actually gave that benefit to Armstrong because you know in theory if if it's clean everybody if the drugs controls if you've limited it that you're going to maybe his natural Talent did rise to the top and maybe he wasn't able to do that in the 90s uh in 9596 because everybody else was an EPO so that was my optimistic view I I do not look at writers and go oh he's cheating I don't I really look at the best of every writer uh but once you get firsthand knowledge it becomes uh like black and white the the real big deal the real thing that got me in 2001 though I was at a sports conference uh in Austin Texas and uh not Austin Texas um San Antonio uh I was supposed to do the right for the Ros with Armstrong the week before he disinvited me um said he was I was drunk the year before which I wasn't but he he he decided I was the enemy um because I had critiqued Dr perrar a month before uh the event anyways um but I was at the Sports and Medicine conference and Dr Ed Coy who has done testing with him since 1991 91 till he turned Pro his ego whatever he is he was supposed to talk about ergogenic AIDS like drinks and stuff and he pulled up a slide of Armstrong and and I remember it like it was yesterday and he showed a graph of his oxygen to take 5.
7 lers of oxygen um he showed his weight the first two three years um which he did lose 3 or 4 kilos between 91 and 95 by the time he but by 199999 1999 it was only a kilo difference not enough to make up that difference and then they had a line from the lower left to the top right was mechanical efficiency and they used Chris carmichel as the expert who knows nothing honestly um made a business out of fraud um anyways he claimed yeah his Improvement was he his mechanical view he's he his body somehow one in a trillion somehow defied uh physics and and Physiology uh that he improved 15 to 20% on his mechanical efficient that's why it did what well oh it proved not to be the case but what was shocking is that his 5.7 lers of oxygen translated his weight was a 7879 V2 Max which meant no way in hell could he win the Tour Ever and it's it was such an average so remember I'm 68 kilos I taken 6.4 lers of oxygen because you can deduce you can deduce someone's par to weight ratio based on their oxygen uptake capacity is it oh 100% you our power output in drobic is only only is is driven by your oxygen it's it's how much how much how much remember if V2 Max is your is it's critical because a high view2 Max allows you to maximize your aerobic capacity if you're poorly trained you you might not reach that Peak you might the secret is your sustainable output should go as close as you can to your uh to your V2 Max Ma so you're about 90% of your O2 intake uh sustainable so if I have a 92 V2 Max even if I'm not really well trained I should beat riders that are an 85 I look at that my tour to France in 1990 I was had Mono I didn't come in there even close to my good shape and I still want the tour uh that's why I said I I was very blessed but at 5.
7 lers of oxygen that's uh basically I'm more than a half a liter um more oxygen at a lower weight so I thought oh my God the watch he they they bragged for I bragged about him doing 475 watts of the C 500 watts of C of M called madone Mone 500 watts at his weight would take over 100 Millers of V2 oxygen V2 Max that means he'd have to sustain in the 90s uh and then '90s for 30 minutes he had a 78 V2 Max impossible and so hom he averaged 475 Watts impossible even today you can see Riders I will guarantee if you look at their wattage on their computers they're not sustaining more than 400 watts you're seeing 420 watt 440 Watts because somebody's estimating that based on their watts per kilo but their wattage output remember it's your weight to power ratio if I was let's say when I was climbing if you look at the historically most Riders at at an a sustainable up at lot was around 400 watts that's over 45 minutes you go shorter than that 15 minutes you can do 430 450 Watts but and I even argued with David Walsh I mean you talk about all these um stories but it's physics it's like physiology there there's certain things you can't the Sport's been so competitive for so long and there's been data produced there is no Miracle there is there's no secret train there's no secret diet it it it when I race at the time the diet was probably more balanced in the 80s wouldd still eat the same as today except you would be I would be forced to starve myself and and lose muscle mass a lot has come out under wash you know in the last decade with you know Armstrong holding his hand up and you know apologizing to a bunch of different actors were in it did you ever get an apology he wanted so I arranged a meeting in San Francisco um I forced him to sign a confidentiality um agreement so yeah we met with his attorney and and my attorney and we signed confidentiality agreements I know that would drive him crazy because he wanted to say it publicly but um but I did want to see if he was going to be honest with me because I had information from a lawsuit with Trek that I knew that he was with with Tre working to basically shut down my fitness company and and other businesses and I saw files on it um um accidentally and I asked him you know were you ever working with John John Burke on this and he lied to me I said no I said well I know you're not being truthful because I saw the documents uh I saw messages between you and John perk and uh so I knew he was not being honest and he never really said I apologize he he he said that he he said you know he'd never apologized he said I just got caught up in this big energy this movement um and so um he couldn't apologize and he didn't know how to do you think that relationship is dead in the water or is it anything you would ever consider never never fixing never never oh my God no you he's not one to ever have a friendship with absolutely not zero chance he uh But the irony is about two months later he he finally revealed that we had a he tried to make it like we had he apologized to me uh even though we had a com idential agreement I knew he couldn't handle that he had to leak it so no I would never consider a a any cordial relationship with him I'm fascinated as to what training was like back when you were at the peak your powers take me all the way back to 1983 it was the year I was born but I've heard legendary Tales from my dad of these train and Spins you were reportedly doing in preparation for winning the world Road Race Champs in 1983 what was the training like in the buildup to that well you know it's very interesting because as advanced you think training's gotten um Gart came from a he did a sports medicine School physiology in Switzerland I think Paul kley and um if I look back it was based on physiology but we had he had he had a program but six eight weeks out you would um start this load really heavy load up and higher intensity in the beginning and higher volume for about 6 weeks and then you should reach complete exhaustion by the end of the 6 weeks and then two weeks before I would have a really complete rest until I got feeling really fresh again then very short intense writing um before the worlds and I I've used that program for ever and it's I've won the worlds a couple times um it's the same program almost like the racing T of Italy before the Twitter France but I wrote a book in '85 um and it was pretty much uh from a document a 2-in thick book that Paul kley gave every writer that he assist that we studied and um it is as relevant today as any and I think I met Lauren tandm in the tour tour of France in in in 2014 he he came up he said Greg I 2008 or 2009 I somehow found your book and I said this is the best training book I've ever you know I use this today I actually have a funny story about that book so when I was a student I couldn't afford a coach and I couldn't even afford a book cuzz I was so busted spending all my money on College fees so I photocopied your book was in the college library and I photocopied every single page out of the book and put it into a ring binder and it's just like highlighted and circled and arrows and then I took stapled in all my own training plans that I built off it but you know for a very modest success in cycling I got to ride my bike fulltime for a few years nothing of note but I attribute a lot of it to the learnings in that book and I still carry those lessons and passed them on to younger athletes today so it's a brilliant book if anyone get their hands out I'm not sure if it's still in print no it isn't but it once I got that power meter there's some stuff I would change definitely I um I do think that especially with gar when I started training a big mistake is pushing Big gears you said I'll push big gears I mean when I think back when I was racing as a junior I had restricted gears and when I raced with the called amateur level I mean I was so much you know know more Snappy and I I think today I would do probably less volume I'd do more intensity in the in the winter than I did at the time I I still trained 12 hours pretty intense but a lot of it was like diesel training high level not threshold but um in between I mean it's it was still a good program the difference today though compared to when I was racing very few people had good knowledge of training it was just too high volume and to be honest at the time I don't think it made a huge difference for most Riders because racing was your training I mean if anything I think Riders were always not performing at their Optimum because they're training too much volume too much uh racing a little bit too much um but uh you know you try to you try to simulate the same intensities that you race so if you're Racing 100 races a year you really you're close to being at your Optimum at at times in the season I think with more today you can more gauge when you want to be and at that Optimum time I think the writers overall have um they're they're more educated on their training uh but at the end of the day um it's still when you race a lot you're you're you're training everything I mean in fact if you when I was racing as a belgi in Belgium as a junior I would race a Wednesday and then Saturday Sunday but in a way that was the perfect type of training because I'd race flat out on a Wednesday recover for 2 days still riding little intense ride before and then race flat out Saturday Sunday and recover and your most people no matter what can train three to four days Max uh at at high quality when I hear somebody doing six seven hours or six or seven days a week or seven days a week can training it's wrong but even six days most people and even ulie from SRM said even the top Pros if you look at their data truly Riders can do Optimum output three to four days a week and then it has to be recover in between that can we finish up and chat about the turbulence relationship with Hino so it's 1985 you move across to Lavi Clair to ride with the sports biggest star at the time Bernard Hino I think he was looking for his fifth tour to France win you signed actually that year a $1 million contract over three seasons that's a huge amount of money for 1985 was you think it was 1 million a year one million over three years I heard yeah yeah that was that was okay because everybody it kind of I'll tell you the story how salar really rapidly went up uh because it it sounded like a million a year it was three three $300,000 absolutely uh I think heo was making 1 15200 grand at that time when I was Rena in 84 when I got offered that contract I was making $100,000 and I really like you I still think he was the best director in my period And I didn't want to leave uh but I kind of knew there was going to be a conflict between me and Fon um but the money that was offered it wasn't just that I was going to get a pedal of a dollar pedal from um from look so it was a potential massive amount of money and my head was sprinting I'm like I can't even believe I mean I can't believe this is going to happen but I went back to gemmart I said all I you know if you just up at $50,000 I'll stay with you and he said no you won't win the Tour without me and once he once he said that I was done inste he says I depend on one person no way so I left and um and he did pay me 300 $330,000 over a year for three years um but also heo actually really there's a lot of you know maybe not Clarity on my relation with them when I turned Pro uh I was 18 years old when I got offered a pro contract Reno turned 19 a month later um in November of 1980 Hino and sard flew to Reno Nevada and spent three days with me I went running with uh H know did a little psych cross with him um he was an incredible person and he was a a perfect leader for the team honestly he really broke the chain of the traditional one leader worker bees behind him if you watch any MK everybody dedicated everything to him um and Reno we had such good talent that we raised um at the moment if who whoever was the best at that moment would be the the lead um and it was really team strategy it was great way to race because he know wasn't this ego Maniac who insists on winning every race he helped writers in races and so knowing that he was truly he was a hero but I admired him as a person and he would stick to his words if he said he's going to split the prize money he was going to do this and do that he would do it and so the difficult thing was going to him in ' 85 and it's still he was the same person ' 85 he didn't try to um uh keep me from winning the tour kley and tapi did and um he know when I I had four or five minutes on him in in the stage in lard Dan I don't think he know was yelling at kley was that the day roach yeah day with roach and uh I don't think he was telling kley to go tell me to stop because he wants to win the Tour he but kley and Capi that was their gold when that tour to France and kley uh the team lied to me said basically said he's 45 seconds behind me I waited minutes and he still didn't show up and he was still 2 minutes behind me so I was upset at the team not at heo at all and H know said I I he realized he won the Tour that year he's going to work for me the next year and help me understand the tactics there great because 1985 heo wins the tour for his Fifth and final time and you're second on GC we don't really see that anymore we see teams set up and maybe with the exclusion is jumbo visma here this year because I can't really understand their tactics where they're still keeping sep cous in the top 10 what we're typically seeing in you know the post Armstrong era teams set up around one Rider who's leading the team domestics will ride themselves to a halt in the mountains and then they'll pull off where they can hardly turn a pedal stroke anymore how is this working where he knows winning the tour but you're and you're in a supporting role but still able to hang on for second overall but but we weren't it was still simar racing at that time I mean I said the other teams had one leader how how many teams really have two t France potential T France winners in the and almost the same honestly Gart had three T France winners at the same level H know fan are at really three twit France winners out of one team very very rare So if you thought about it from a sponsor's perspective it's a safe bet having two Riders can win the Tour or or the jro although although at one point some is going to have to make that sacrifice but it doesn't guarantee that you pick that one leader that he's going to be the best that year um what would you have better have me and Reno through against H know or me with you know on tap with with on uh Lobby Clair at the time that was a smart move because I think if I stayed with Renault um in 85 I would have won but at the time I got paid there to go help him win his I got paid handsomely uh I got paid to help him win his fifth tour as as long as he was the best as long as he was the best if he wasn't I was given a free open cart to go for the tour win that's that was the difficult thing because he was he was better than me in the first week and a half two weeks he was I had some not great days that at tour but I kept feeling better and better and then the stage into Del lard Dan um uh I went with roach on the teray and by the time I we got to the foothill I I think we were 3 or 4 minutes up on them I I I wasn't certain I only learn that after the stage but I think we might have been as high as four or five minutes up um I waited for him and still finished 2 and a half minutes up and I was when I give my word I give my word I don't break contracts I stick stick to agreements and as upset as with the team um he know said he' work me for the next year the next day he was getting dropped in OB bees when Ro and I literally pushed him up the tour and so knowing that I really did allow him to win but that's what I said I would do and if I and I would have been able to win the Tour I don't I believe I would have been able to win that tour if if he if kley wasn't in charge of the team I would have won that day or been on in the top place in in lard Dan and I would have had four minutes on heo it wouldn't have been heo holding me back it was it was the team that's who I was upset with so we're head to 86 and then we have this you know so much has been made of this promise from heo to say next year it's your turn in ' 86 it is there truth in that did he did he say that oh yeah I mean even in the interview I saw I don't know somebody said there was an uh new documentary in France I and I saw an interview with you know two or three weeks before 86 tour and he said oh yeah Greg's you know he's going to I'm going to work for him what he I I know he went to Colombia and had a good he came out of the really good shape and he but I know that this was more imagine that he was a five-time Twitter FRS winner and Tey Bernard Tey people knew who he was he was like a trump I mean egomaniac um you know scary powerful actually and uh I imagine he's telling you know Screw lemond forget yeah you know and and I could and I look back I go yeah I could see it because he had had a chance to be one time he'd have been the only six-time winner of the Twitter France and I think he could have won it that year if I he was that good and so of 3 days before the tour at the I think maybe at the tour he was asked you know about the leadership he said well the leader's going to take place after the leader will be the one who wins the time trial the first one and I'm like are you I didn't say anything to him but I'm like are you kidding me I can't believe that changed and the crazy thing even if that was the case he won the time TR only because I had a flat tire and a broken wheel I would have won that time tral but what I didn't know there was uh a whole collusion between the riters uh tapy and and you know the stage in Depot that we went to the panes uh at that point we were basically same time on the uh uh at the deep into the race was this because so you took the Jersey on stage 17 and then the first I remembered maybe your recollection is different but from looking at the videos I remember heo attacking the day after on stage 18 and I remember going to asking my dad like to explain what the hell was going on in these videos cuz I with my basic cycling knowledge couldn't understand what the hell was happening well the real the real drama was the stage from um I forgot where it started to PO and we went over the Mary Blanc and uh there's a one rule in cycling you don't attack in the in the feed Zone and we're all together and um when I look back I that day I I remember looking at our writers John F Bernard and a couple writers talking to um Reynolds team now Ben esto now whatever the new transition of that team is but benesta Reynolds uh with Delgado and right so we're just cruising along just right before the um right before the feed somebody attacks through it boom attacks through it and it's kind of chaos but I'm kind of going okay it'll just slow down I grab my musette I get out and couple kilometers the petons kind of stopped you know okay everybody's drinking and all that we go for 20ks like that I assume everybody's together the whole pelon's together and then the cockboard comes back and there's heo Delgado I forgot who else kab something like that almost four or five minutes up in a breakaway and I'm like I couldn't believe it I couldn't believe it and I just I literally freaked out and uh and how could I chase down he know by myself I couldn't do that 3 4 minutes it would have been I would have been killed chasing down the yellow jersey and and what's going on in the team is there like is the team split into two camps where it has camp lamon and Camp hoo inside the team or are you all pulling together well at that time we I thought we were pulling together and um but nobody tell me what happened all I knew was that heo was in front and there was no effort to kind of pull him back of course team's not going to chase him down um anyways we went up to maray Blanc and then 20ks to go there's a small climb before Po and I'm like it's was six or seven minutes at this point I'm like screw it I got to back a couple minutes I got to bring it keep it limited so I tacked I think I took Lucha rare with me um it was only fan group at that point anyways with that I was with maybe 10 or 15 I can't remember and I I pulled back two minutes two and a half minutes at in po then heo found out I was riding with luchar he we almost got in a fist fight at at the end of the stage that still gave him that still gave him a f minute lead but it was that was his knockout stage he was he thought he had it he had me wiped out and uh that night I decided it's over no more friend no more friendship and I knew the next day I had to take back as much as I could and I took back five minutes his ego was so great that that he just thought he was that much stronger and he attacked on on The Descent of the tremay and I was so happy that he was out there by himself uh he had a couple minute lead at one point but we caught him at the bottom of Superman year and I I brought back that five minutes but it was that day after po that the team stopped talking but years later I just recently John FR they did a a documentary with heo um of that that tour and John FR finally came out and admitted that yeah they colluded possibly exchange money uh with the Reynolds team uh during that feed to to isolate me and so he said no it was I'm glad that he talked about it because he said it was clear it was it was a mind game on Greg it was kind of that's that was the difficult thing was imagine having a friend a person you admired like a brother um the deception and not being transparent about it it would be like yeah I'm going to work with you and um and then not and and in one stage just before I took the yellow Jersey to on the cold of granon we had a stage finish in in gap and there was massive side winds and heo kept you know attacking into echelons and breakaways and I would follow but you couldn't cover every one of them and all a sudden he got away um and uh everybody stopped again I was isolated and I thank Robert Miller to to this day I said Robert you know get your team to work Panasonic I will give you the stage if you're next to me in a Mountain Stage and he got his team to chase we caught him otherwise he' to take another two three minutes on me and at that at the end of that day I just I had packed up my suitcase and I had walk in out the door I said I'm done I'm not doing this race anymore and tapy and kley came at me yelling you can't do this I said yes I can I'm done unless you actually this I can't do this anymore don't worry okay we'll we'll fix it heo race for you and so so heo the next day he gets dro the knard I take the L Jersey and then UNL toz he attacks on The Descent I try to follow a couple times and it's kind of like you don't just follow Chase your teammate down but he gets away and everybody stops kind of in this flat flatter section and um and I I I got to the to called the telegraph about a kilometer climb in kle came up and said you cannot ride cuz I with you cannot ride with anybody you cannot do it and I'm 200 M from the from the top of the telegraph so at one kilometer and I got so pissed I attacked as hard as I could sprinted I could hear Zimmerman almost losing the first turn I descended so fast I caught the the break it was two minutes up at the bottom of the of the uh Telegraph uh and cut the group um I shocked heo I just went right by him and said let's go cuz we isolated Zimmerman at during that stage I was dropping he now on cold of granal and he said no just my knees hurting let me Pace I'll set the pace will um you know right my pace and if uh so you save yourself for Zimmerman okay great at the bottom in the valley between uh the quad lefair I think it is quad lefair and LZ cppy came up and said you know you've won the Tour Greg uh this is he know's last uh stage I mean last tour why don't you let him lead up the tour and I left was I was actually concerned about safety uh for my own safety like he know got I mean M got punched on pry and in the 70s I was actually very nervous about that and I was like okay great let him win the let him win the stage I've never gone up the L to us so easily it was like a training ride and uh but when we got done with that stage he said no the race isn't over till the time tral so he kept moving the goalpost and I was because you have that picture from I think Graeme Watson the famous sports photog has a picture from the third last Corner which if anyone hasn't ridden upz it's probably 1.