Road men welcome back to the podcast today I chat with one of the best gr toour Riders of a generation it is Lawrence tandam who can forget those iconic images from the tour to France of Lauren with his face all bandaged up and blood leaking everywhere what a hard man but today we're not talking about Road cycling we are talking about bike packing and ultra distance cycling today Lauren deconstructs the tour of the Tour of France of bike packing we talk about equipment choices preparation nutrition mindset and the low points trust me there were plenty this is a brilliant hilarious fascinating and insightful interview I hope you enjoy it it's Lawrence tendam Lauren Stand Down welcome back to the roban podcast yo happy to be here what are we 800 episodes later yeah exactly like I remember you talking about the daily podcast like how must be three years ago I was like man that guy is crazy you know so maybe four years ago even you know because I got my own podcast and I know how how much work it uh it's there you know you also need to find time to to have life and and train and do other things but uh yeah you manage pretty well anony and the crazy part in that is because I didn't miss a day for like three years and like life happens as well like so I had crashes on my bike I you know family problems fights with my girlfriend my mom was in critical in hospital at one point I didn't miss the podcast especially when my mom was in hospital that was crazy because it was two weeks for she was like on life support and stuff and I was like oh my God how am I doing this podcast but it was a nice distraction yeah yeah yeah I can imagine things are crazy like but also from the first you know when we have a record day there's only once or twice I said man I'm not feeling it you know I remember back in 2019 I did the tour to friend with the national television I had been a lot on podcasts for myself I had been on national television and then ston wanted to record another one straight after the tour and I was just me and my in my van you know driving to the San and I was like man I'm not feeling it I think I'm Lawrence tyus and I think people also tired of Lawrence and them so so that's the that's the one I remember like okay we're not doing it but then also you know good stuff happens out of there because we made a movie about the area I was I was uh there relaxing in my van you know so uh so afterwards uh we made up for that you've had a career which was absolutely brilliant and you know career with so many highs so much goes into that so much hard work so much dedic so much mental sacrifice how did you even contemplate doing the tour Dev V where did that idea come from yeah so the thing was so back in 2017 I first time I heard about Ultra cycling and Ultra racing you know I I did the I did a ride from Amsterdam to Bone I think it was in September somewhere people asked me to go on the ride and I said yeah sure and then people were talking about Mike H I said who's that guy and they said yeah he's a legend but he just passed away in Australia because he was doing one of those like long races where you don't sleep and I was like man I'm never going to do all that sh [ __ ] you know and then Corona came like Co came and in that year I did one in the Pyrenees you know because it was one of the only races you could do for the Pyrenees because when you do ultas you don't see people you know and you don't you don't mle with people and I was hooks man and then took me a few years to come back to ultra because I did also like you said live happens and I I was second and inbound and I tried to win ound for a few more years and then uh but still it's it's still the the the fire was burning inside me like to do it again you know stuff like that and then I think the next three races I did was within a time span of one year I think yeah within a time span of one year I won all three like three- Day races and I remember I I found one of the guys I I I wrote a bike with in 2017 I said Boss B R I said man I'm I'm new to all this but if I want to do one race to win which one should I aim for and then he said two divide like because I knew there was like atas Mountain race or silk Mountain race or transcontinental or so I said no no man two divide is like the Pinnacle of of the sport and it's like the L St you know the famous ice skating thing and then atance he he uh he said it was like that so then I said okay I'll do it and once I said I do something I do it so there was no doubts left you know and I started to prepare for for to divide what's the preparation like from your days as a world tour pro to prepare for the tour divide yeah man you have to think about so many things you know like actually you don't have to but I thought I had to you know like do I take a a sleeping bag do I take only a beefy do I take which lamps do I take which clothes blah blah blah which bike with tires and at the end I found out you can't plan anything man like I was I was doubting about my lamps for like maybe two months and then the second day I lost I lost my lamp and I did it on the pen light I bought at the dollar shop you know I was doubting about which which gloves I should bring and then I bought I lost also lost my gloves on day two and I bought some gloves at the gas station and they were also doing the job you know so so I found out that that and also the winner teach me that Justina is like you can planning is for the week he says but I see where his point because because I tried to plan some so much so many things you know I think I didn't enjoy the ride as much as I could have enjoyed it you know in inside I'm happy but on the bike I was not enjoying so so so much is that the tradeoff and you're coming from like Pure Performance you know I've got lack and stuff about this and he struggles with that it's like in the pursuit of high performance and the pursuit of going to win T fight do you somehow lose the experience of riding T ofi yeah exactly I think I think you said it very well you know like I I tried to win the thing I was planning according to Lan's records he gave me his cheat sheet I saw a straa fell so I did the the the the days he did I saw I did a another a lose planning I did a planning around that you know I found hotels and I was thinking about which which things yeah which Supply points I had to hit before I think the shops closed and blah blah blah and inside everything was was different than I was planning you know but if you don't reach your your your goals you feel you feel [ __ ] about yourself that's what I found out you feel like like a noop like my kids say like like like someone who can't ride the bike or and in inside was not the case because with all the stuff I with all the stuff I encountered and with also with the new course I still did a 15-day finish you know like 15 days and and change so I can be really really proud with myself I'm really happy I'm really happy with the ride but like I say the last I was not enjoying it so much because I plan to be faster how do you handle that mental aspect of it like the the isolation when you are in that head space of I hope to be faster but you still have to get to the finish and you have so much time alone with your thoughts is that difficult yeah yeah like like like I say I I the the good I went through three of those races but they were only three days you know basically I won further England I won Gru and I won the one in Columbia trans coderas the first two were actually only two days or one day and the last one was three days and I was like okay I just quadruple it you know but that's not the case because if you quadruple something it's a quadruple beer is also a lot stronger than like a single than like a pner so you feel that a lot more you know in the body and that was also the case with this thing so yeah so I was in Insight I was I was underestimating it too much and to be and of course I had I could think a lot about you know it's still long and this and that but what I noticed in those shorter events is that I just continued till the line stops and basically I used that same mentality in in in this race you know like I just had to go to the Finish there was no other option how did I a conversation with Dan Bingham the ER anesis from Red Bull a while ago and it was really interesting cuz I thought aerodynamics is exclusively the domain of the track probably grown up and then you start to see the time trial guys really leaning into but then you see The Grand Tour guys leaning into it like as I was chatting to him the penny kind of dropped that the longer the event the more we should be leaning into aerodynamics because if you could change your CDA by just a tiny little bit on a 15-day event it's going to result in errors yeah yeah I see that point but also like then I in Insight I did two or three days on like way too low pressure on the tires because it was leaking you know and then you push and you push but you cannot you don't go forward so I don't want to go too much because you also you average man sometimes you average for 6 hours only 5K an hour you know like a 20 M stretch takes you 6 hours you know you're like [ __ ] what the [ __ ] and so so the so I did also a few lectures about about this thing and the key takeaways was like uh expectations if they're like like expectations are good but if if my expectations were IR like surreal I couldn't reach them because they were they were based On LAN race but Lan's parkour like was totally different especially in the last state New Mexico than the of two divide because two divide is a different parkour than for example The Great Divide mountain bike route they they take more single track more like high hiker bike stuff you know so I was expecting to be home Thursday I I started my ride on Tuesday I did already three days according to Lin space if I did the the schedule like they made for me at home you know I of course you're on WhatsApp with people at home and they're like okay like I had like my my my Tactical Team like you could you could be there Thursday night and then that Tuesday the the parkour turned out totally different than luckland parkour you know because you get the GPX only one week before and you cannot study 4300 kilometers yeah and then I felt so [ __ ] about myself man like I said there was the 30k stretch which took me six hours instead of and average on 20K an hour I used to do it would take me one and a half hours I lose already four and a half hours hours on on my schedule to be on time on Thursday you know and then I remember I was on on the bike and I was like please man tell me this is new this is something I don't know about this but tell me this is not in the has been in the race for the last 20 years to divid is happening because I feel so [ __ ] about myself like how can Lam be so quick and then I found then I found like on my phone I found like one little yeah piece of of network you know and I remember I found St on my co-host on the podcast who also yeah I was in I was man please tell me this is this is not like it used to be said Lawrence I'm sorry we missed all this you know and and you're not like a noob you're not like a because that's what I that's what was what I was thinking but I remember I was laying there in a ditch phoning him like with my with my phone high for that one little piece of network and my youngest kid he never he never text me it's still the last three text I got from him but he text the the text he sent to me was I miss you that's the only three words he sent me in three different text he's nine years old you know and then I was there I remember laying in the this feeling [ __ ] about my and I was like [ __ ] now I got to get up and go to the Finish Line because I you know the kids miss me and I have to I have to reach them because also for example the goal to be there on Thursday was because then I could be quicker to the kids you know quicker back home quicker to the kids but uh yeah those those expectations were all not reachable from a objective point of view so then that's what that's what I say that's my key takeaway you feel [ __ ] about yourself if you have expectations were not possible also with the kids if I make it's not like a lesson in life though it's like if your expectations are higher than your delivery you're just always unhappy exactly like my kids they're pretty good in playing ball you know like soccer baseball but if I put the the bar too high for them you know like of course I encourage them and of course they have expectations and the old is 12 and he says yeah I'm going to be a Texas Ranger and play Major League Baseball in the US you know and I'm not getting that dream away from him but I'm not the key takeaway also for me is like is 99.99% sure he's not reaching that but he doesn't need to feel [ __ ] about himself and he's not reaching that because that expectation to be there that's really is only for the happy few you know and uh yeah so that that's a key takeaway don't be too harsh on yourself you think even though you are that harsh on yourself maybe that robs you of the enjoyment in the moment but do you think Looking Back Now with the passage of time it's possible to enjoy it in hindsight this podcast is sponsored by whoop it's the world's most advanced health and fitness wearable whoop is the only wearable that actively coaches you towards your goals and it shows you the impact that certain behaviors and habits have on your health and right now is a great time to get started with W because they've just kicked off their sober October challenge so why not give your body and mind a little bit of a recess with a one month break from alcohol sounds tough but I can tell you it's not last year we members who spent one month alcohol free experienced loads of improvements to their sleep resting heart rate variability and loads more and I think the thing with that is you don't need to get started with your one-one challenge on October 1st it it could be October 31st that you get started on your one Monon challenge for me like if anyone's listening to the podcast I had a wipe out on the mountain bike about five weeks ago tore my rotator cough broke a bunch of ribs and went into a little bit of self-destruct mode where I started out having like glass of wine at night and then I was like a sure I'm not trying it tomorrow I'll have two glasses of one I'll have three glasses of wine I as I finished a bottle and it's like what am I doing here well when the sober October thing came along I thought it was an interesting chance to compare data from my whoop in the period where I was feeling sorry for myself in the period alcohol free and I'm actually shocked at the difference it makes even one glass of wine the difference it makes to my heart rate variability my restorative sleep and then anecdotally if you 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com roadman and it's going to be in the description below try it and let me know how you get on yeah yeah that that that's that's very very true and the first two weeks if you asked me about two divid I would have been like I would because I was totally empty you know I was just Blanco I was num I didn't I was 35 it was painful and I'm still tired that would be that would be my you know and this but then I remember I think 10 days after my finish on the second rest t the friend I think we did a two-hour podcast on on to fight you know with with my with my podcast and I listened to that one 10 days later when I was returning from the to the Friends home you know like a long drive and I was alone in the car and I listen and then it started to sink in you know I was in the car have the Goosebump still you know like oh man actually that that was a cool period of my life and maybe I want to go back someday to the trail you know like actually the time on the it was not just bad but was also really nice moments you know on the trail and I could only I could be with myself and and and because you know like you say life happens you know I did to fight and two days after I returned home I was in the tutor friends and then things happened and then I went to on a big family holiday and then the company starts in Amsterdam we we we're based in Amsterdam with our office you know and I've been away for like such a long time and then you want to go back to that feeling you know of pain and suffering but at least life was simple you know and so so I start to enjoy it more and more that I did all right yeah I think there's something about bike riders where it it's almost like we need to experience one end of the extreme to experience the order like by that I mean you'll enjoy to sitting in the office in a warm environment having a nice coffee or beer because you've experienced the hardship of being in the ditch totally broken like the beer just doesn't taste the same without the trauma of being in the ditch broken no no I I think you're you're right you know because but but this was a this was a real extreme this was like yeah like yeah we did we did we did uh with with LIF slow right fast we did every day like I I I record some stuff and once I had Network it was sent to the to the people in the office and then they would make like a daily recap and in the Netherlands like people like it it took off a big time you know I think we got six million views in in two weeks so that's like crazy and then uh people people really enjoyed it for the first five days but 14 days is long man you know I was following you I was like just at one point I forgot you were doing it and then I came back a week later I was like oh he's still there that it's still there there yeah exactly for me it was talking about flow we we we will come to flow because for me it was only like five in my head it's only like five days you know that's real flow but you know people start to not like it because they saw me so much suffering and it took so long and I saw how deep I went you know so so at first they were like oh [ __ ] cool that's an adventure and and then the people who really care about me some people when I came home they were like never do that again you know like because we don't want to watch you suffer that mat much as as what you did so and and exactly two weeks is long you know also for the kids at home three days they they follow you where's that but the 13 day where's that J still on his bike somewhere in the US doing crazy [ __ ] but actually they don't care anymore you know like a three We Tour difference is also long is the suffering comparable like when you're riding GC in the Tour of France and you know the podium guys are really turning the screw and you're top 10 in GC is in the balance those key moments on the Alpine or panan climbs where you have to go to that Heart Locker how comparable is that type of suffering to what you went through yeah for me to Def fight was way way harder yeah because I read the story about Alex house and TSS and he did a 20day toight I think lost the two yeah like he like so much bad look as well he was like in TRS getting lift plac of broken wheels and stuff and I was like six days quicker I think than him but for me man like you know if I do the tence and also win in the top 10 I was tired and I was really [ __ ] but Monday I could race uh what's it called book Meir you know the crit but now as said I I could race uh s Sebastian and and and do a decent decent race but here I think the day I arrived if you put me in the hospital they would have kept me for two days because I was you know I have pictures like me phoning because my my eye was my eye was inflammated oh you look real because I had like I had like a lens 48 or I don't know 72 hours one a one day lens was 72 hours in the same eye without changing them or something on the end and and and I couldn't I could only cry and my face was puffy and I was dehydrated and I could only be in my bed and and you know every turn I felt every bone in my body so for me 25 was way way harder you know and also the weeks after I think it took for me it took for me two months to start really start training again or start training like right now I'm training for G worlds but uh it it it took me to months to to uh to to be like a human again you know I don't know if this example is is is appropriate in the in this podcast but I my my first son he's he's born April April 19 and he was made in Paris the year before after the tour to France yeah but after this 2 fight I was two days home and there was no no no sell no selling my body was Desiring for Action I was just and also my wife she was like what the [ __ ] is coming in the house now you know like this this guy is like crazy I was only in my chair and I was like Grumpy in the chair because I was painful and I knew I had to leave for the T fence within two days I had to pack and it was like no action at all you know so that's that's also maybe a a thing to consider you know if you do two divide in order to be fast yeah it's like I was trying to put myself even into the mindset of how deep that pit of fatigue is like if you ride the bike if anyone's reading the bike for a long day you do a 16 17h hour day and then you go to bed that night and you get up the next morning you're just so sore the last thing you want to do is ride the bike again how do you go like 16 hour day and then get up the next day and do it again yeah man I did 26-hour days you know like that's even I like the third day actually there was actually still the second day because I left at 11:00 p.m. and I arrived the next day so 21 a.
m. on the hotel you know so and then yeah you yeah yeah there's no option about you know my always my dad when I was standing still my my dad used to say you're not you're not you're not come where you want to be at the end you need to be in New Mexico touching the touching the gate or touching the the wall or what what's it there the yeah no touching the fence you know at the end that's that's the place you have to go and when you're standing still or lay down for another hour you're not coming there so you have to but man things are things are harsh over there you know and also the the the the the thing what also got to me the most so besides the physical pain was also the the the the always existing self guil like if I would wake up and I would leave it would be typically take me 35 40 minutes you know and breakfast and I need to pick my bike and put all the stuff back in the bike and then put my clothes on and then put the wo on and then get the get the route and blah blah blah it would take me 40 minutes 40 minutes 35 and then I was like oh [ __ ] I spoke to Lo and he did it in 15 or 20 minutes you always said and then from arriving in the hotel he was like yeah I used to yeah I had I had my small backpack like Lan I would go to a gas station buy a lot of [ __ ] for the night also for the next morning for breakfast and then also for the first few hours on the bike and then it would take from from from checking in in a hotel and as a shower and I need to phone with my wife a little bit you know or because it was morning already in the Netherlands or and make a little movie for the company would also take too long like it would always take too long so I was always in a hurry and I was always talking self guil to me and then after five days I stopped because I fought with ston and Thomas Decker at a breakfast place somewhere in what was it called Somewhere in a ski Town very very cold and I was like man I'm done with all the all the hurrying all day long I'm hurrying you know and it's never fast enough and out of the 18 days you're a 18 hours you're awake you need to be on the bike for 17 hours or or 17 five hours and always bom B and I couldn't handle that anymore that stress so then I slowed down a little bit Yeah Ro man I'm going to date myself here but I've been riding the bike for almost 20 years and in that time I've cycled through every cycling apparel brand out there and I kept swapping out different apparel Brands each season until I found laal there's something really different about lall and as soon as you slip into the gear you know this it feels different it feels better I've had the pleasure of chatting with yanto Barker on the podcast he's the lall founder and his dedication to crafting the fastest most refined cycling apparl out there it's nothing short of inspiring yanto isn't just trying to create gear I get the feeling he's actively and obsessively trying to perfect cycling there trust me as soon as you slip on the call Kit as soon as you zip up that ch you can feel that commitment the proof for the call it's in the pudding this is the same kit Jay hindley wore when he clinched overall victory in the Italia there's a confidence that comes with wearing apparel that's been battle tested and Podium proven in races like the jir Italia trust me feeling good on the bike means you're going to perform better if you have a second I highly advise you to jump on over to lol. CC and check out their amazing range of kid and experience this feeling for yourself but the the Ultras are almost divided into two groups AR because you have these crazy ones which are you know 12 14 days plus but then the smaller ones like Badlands like I've chat to you know Le and L Wix and Rob Britain who both worn Badlands and like Rob's preparation for Badlands when he won it he done a full distance race wrecky back home on Vancouver Island and then he was sleeping for he took four he took three four minute naps in his race record and he's like no that's not long enough I don't feel refreshed enough so then he went into the race and he took two s minute naps for I remember he told he told me the story too but while I was I raced him in Colombia this year you know he got second I think he I think I was like 45 minutes in front of him you know that was like a real race till the end because it was a yeah the and also I told him like I'm going to do a two divide style is so I take two hotels and I try to sleep long you know at the end I beat him but with that tactic but he came pretty close the last night without without sleeping you know but you know for me I I wanted to do this Ultra and prove that you could win without being doing all that crazy stuff but I didn't didn't succeed in that in that uh in that goal but because first of all I wanted to sleep 6 hours a night and and then the second night I couldn't sleep yeah was the second night because I lost my lamp I lost my gloves so I went to bed at 8:15 I woke up at 9:45 again like 90 minutes later and then I started to think [ __ ] how should I manage these problems you know with my lights with my gloves and I [ __ ] I need to sleep and then I just get out of bed I started at 11:00 a.
m. of 11:00 p.m.
I mean so after like a 16 hour day I did a 90-minute sleep and I started again and then in the the whole night from 11:00 a.m. till 6 5: a.
m. it starts going light I think so the whole night or not like the second half of the night I was seeing you know the trees were like people and maybe houses so I went to sleep in my beefy for like 15 minutes at 7:30 in the morning I remember and and then that was exactly what I didn't want to do you know like one of those guys hallucinating on the bike yeah and then I remember at 5:00 p.m.
I arrived in Lincoln which was basically the place I wanted to stay for a sleep but then I was like yeah man it's 5:00 p.m. it starts to snow it tonight so but you know and because I was at 5:00 p.
m. because I started at 11:00 p.m.
the night before you know I started very earlyer than I was thinking I would start I said yeah maybe I can continue to Helena you know because Helena it will take me maybe 6 hours from here like 100k so I would be there at 11:00 p.m. and it started to snow and I was late and I I crashed a few times in the downhill I came there at 100: p.
m. or 1:00 a.m.
in a hotel and I remember I arrived in Helena and it's like a 100,000 people town so street lights uh advertisement lights you know typical us town you know and I remember suddenly out of the forest I came into a Big Town big roads and I was like man it look I was totally hallucinating like I was in a carnival in a carnival parade you know like in a big parade and in front of me was Alladin on on his carpet I was thinking I was looking to the to the lights I was like was like hitting myself in the face man I'm not seeing all this stuff I'm just imaginating all this stuff and that was exactly what I didn't want to do beforeand and on day three I was there already you know so that pissed me off basically about myself and then I started to realize okay I need to really sleep and then of course I had the best night of my life from 11: till 7 a.m. I think because I was so tired you know I was just gone but then I also needed to slow it down because I I wanted to do it in a kind of healthy way but still I was tired for two months after the race the cycl landscape is kind of wild at the moment though like I think it was nearly around the end of your career that I started noticing all this different types of cycling so many of us were so Road focused for so long and then it's like Ted King started opening up and going out to Rift and then lack and Alex house opened it up with the alternate program now it seems like almost everybody rides a bit of mountain bike bit of gravel bit of Road bit of ultra how do you see that cycling ecosystem at the moment do you think it's going to keep developing like that or you see one or two of these Pursuits you know getting squeezed and not being as popular yeah but actually I don't know like what I'm thinking is I think Ultras will get more attention I don't know if it's going to be a mass particip mass participation kind of thing you know like like like rle is you know because it's so hard on the body but what I notice is that Ultra is for me is now like where gr was 5 years ago yeah I think you can still win Ultra like yustina he won yustina laka he won toight he's still a nurse yeah he's just really good in being awake in the night he's a nurse he can do 24 hour shifts he said and blah blah blah and he's always happy but and then also the guy who got second Ur he's more like World to Pro and terms of in terms of preparation and and and doing his efforts but what I mean with gra 5 years ago five years ago we got uh Colin Strickland he was still in the in the front group in Unbound with 12 hours training a week on stfa and I know the guy he's not like making up 12 hours a week when it's 20 it's 12 hours a week he was on stfa and the we I think it was a four or five weeks leading up to ound you know and I think also Ultra you can still do with a great mindset with a and then uh a little training because mindset is important and now in well in IM now training is important nutrition is important people weigh their stuff you know what they eat you know like L said the same basically I think and that's what I really like in the Ulta thing is that you can more go with the flow and not as as dial as as uh not as dial as as all the world TR Pros so that that's the landscape I like and yeah not the because the marginal gain stuff to be in the top 10 in the tour you know I've done all that stuff already and now I just want to explore and have fun yeah I went bike packing a few weeks ago just came back and went with some friends start Cod roers we wrote hard every day just you know chopping off wrote maybe depending on the terrain like 160 to 220 kilm per day uh went up through uh Albania Bosnia Montenegro Croatia Slovenia and then back out of Italy for two weeks some of the most one I've ever had on the bike like just phenomenal form like I could see that getting more popular as well yeah exactly so you don't need to raise bik but I see actually maybe it's also because I'm primed on it but I see a lot of people here doing bike holidays in the Netherlands the last week so um and also I was in Santa Cruz and that also got me back into that into that area more like they just use the bike for fun yeah have fun to go out on the bike and not to have the marginal gain stuff and the training all the time but I just use it for fun you know and that's because I have the realization packing that you know when I was thinking about you know am I going back racing am I going to Target this event what am I looking for from cyclan and then I really went down a spir trying to overthink and it like you know was you know I'm if I'm not a cyclist what am I it's part of my identity and I got to a really simple conclusion I think I just cycle because I like having sore legs I think I just like the feeling a sore legs in E Roan whether you're a weekend warrior or a world hor Rider the r tools can make all the difference enter 4 I's Precision Tre plus power meter the latest Innovation from 4i designed to help 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